[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct. As a matter of fact, on 13 we showed, I guess, that it was not as difficult as anticipated! That rookies could do it!

[Assistant] They got to really prove that. You’re training and then C. C. Williams is killed, and then this substitute comes in, Alan [L.] Bean; and what was your first—you know, I don’t know if there was—you know, you knew Pete so well. How well did you know Alan Bean? And what was your first impression? And—

[User] Not—I did not know Al that well. We were at Patuxent River Test Center at the same time. I was in Class 18. Pete was in Class 20. I don’t recall which class Alan was in, but Pete was Alan’s instructor at Test Pilot School before they got into one of the Divisions. I did not know him. We were together in the second selection, so I got to know Al a little bit at that time. But, hey look, he was a naval aviator. He was acceptable!

[Assistant] Not one of those Air Force guys.

[User] I didn’t say that. You did.

[Assistant] I know. So, you’re on a backup to Apollo 9 and there’s this decision made, you know. George Low has this brilliant idea to send Apollo 8 to the Moon. And the person that you’re backing up has this opportunity to fly that flight, Jim it was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not—I did not know Al that well. We were at Patuxent River Test Center at the same time. I was in Class 18. Pete was in Class 20. I don’t recall which class Alan was in, but Pete was Alan’s instructor at Test Pilot School before they got into one of the Divisions. I did not know him. We were together in the second selection, so I got to know Al a little bit at that time. But, hey look, he was a naval aviator. He was acceptable!

[Assistant] Not one of those Air Force guys.

[User] I didn’t say that. You did.

[Assistant] I know. So, you’re on a backup to Apollo 9 and there’s this decision made, you know. George Low has this brilliant idea to send Apollo 8 to the Moon. And the person that you’re backing up has this opportunity to fly that flight, Jim it was—

[User] McDivitt.

[Assistant] —McDivitt. And passes it up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t say that. You did.

[Assistant] I know. So, you’re on a backup to Apollo 9 and there’s this decision made, you know. George Low has this brilliant idea to send Apollo 8 to the Moon. And the person that you’re backing up has this opportunity to fly that flight, Jim it was—

[User] McDivitt.

[Assistant] —McDivitt. And passes it up.

[User] Is that a true story?

[Assistant] Well, I’ve read it now enough times that he was actually offered it and passed it up to stay with the lunar module.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] McDivitt.

[Assistant] —McDivitt. And passes it up.

[User] Is that a true story?

[Assistant] Well, I’ve read it now enough times that he was actually offered it and passed it up to stay with the lunar module.

[User] I’ve never got Jim to admit that.

[Assistant] Really. Well, it’s—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that a true story?

[Assistant] Well, I’ve read it now enough times that he was actually offered it and passed it up to stay with the lunar module.

[User] I’ve never got Jim to admit that.

[Assistant] Really. Well, it’s—

[User] In fact, I’ve heard—

[Assistant] Andy Chaikin must’ve gotten him to admit it because he put it in his book.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve never got Jim to admit that.

[Assistant] Really. Well, it’s—

[User] In fact, I’ve heard—

[Assistant] Andy Chaikin must’ve gotten him to admit it because he put it in his book.

[User] Well, he could have. I’ve heard that as well.

[Assistant] Did you know at the time—like, did you know that he passed it up? Did you know that—I mean, when—I’ve read that you were a little bit angry about that took you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, I’ve heard—

[Assistant] Andy Chaikin must’ve gotten him to admit it because he put it in his book.

[User] Well, he could have. I’ve heard that as well.

[Assistant] Did you know at the time—like, did you know that he passed it up? Did you know that—I mean, when—I’ve read that you were a little bit angry about that took you—

[User] No. No, no. I didn’t—I don’t know that it was offered to him at the time. It could very well have been. But Jim’s decision—I don’t know what his decision was based on. I assumed that his decision was based on the fact that he had been training so long to fly the first lunar module flight that, even though it was late in flight, it should’ve been, I mean, flown long before we did it on Apollo 9, that he chose to stay with the flight of the lunar module and fly that on a Apollo 9 mission in Earth orbit. I believe that that was his motivation. Now other people may have different thoughts. The stories may be different. But as it turned out, we never knew 11 was going to be the first one to land on the Moon! If I had known that 11 was going to be the first one on the Moon and McDivitt had the chance to fly 8, and we would’ve rotated to 11, there would’ve been hell to pay if he turned it down!

[Assistant] So, you didn’t know till later. But when you found out later, I mean, I get the sense from reading things that when you did find out later, there was almost—that you—there was this sense of, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but regret or—that you did convey some disappointment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That may be a rumor. Vicious rumor. But, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think at the time we knew it. In reflecting about it later, why, I’ve always kidded Jim about it, “If you’d have made a right decision, Apollo 12 would’ve been the crew for 11.” But, no, I don’t think at the time there was not that sense, because nobody knew who was going to be the first to land on the Moon. People that think that, that’s foolishness.

[Assistant] Did—you’re in your training. I mean, 9 happens, and then you move over and now you’re prime for 12. What—how do you start training for the real thing? I mean, what’s different about being the backup crew? And how does it start, where you guys know you’re really going?

[User] The difference is, I guess, the launches. The way you fly the spacecraft. The command module and lunar module are the same whether you’re in Earth orbit or whether you’re going to go to the Moon. So, all that training just follows right along. The only thing different in operating spacecraft is the actual landing on the lunar surface itself. So, it—we had enough information from Ranger and Surveyor and mapping and photographs of the lunar surface itself that we could accurately simulate those operations in lunar vicinity—near lunar vicinity—to the point we could even simulate the landing well, and utilizing features on the lunar surface to give us a roadmap to where we were going and what to do. The LLTV [Lunar Lander Training Vehicle] is a training device. It gave us that learning ability, with how the lunar module was going to react in 1/6g. So, all of these things, you take pieces of it and you just add them all together.

[Assistant] Now, were you training for Apollo 12. Like, does that start, like, before Apollo 11 goes to the Moon? I mean, is that an active thing or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The difference is, I guess, the launches. The way you fly the spacecraft. The command module and lunar module are the same whether you’re in Earth orbit or whether you’re going to go to the Moon. So, all that training just follows right along. The only thing different in operating spacecraft is the actual landing on the lunar surface itself. So, it—we had enough information from Ranger and Surveyor and mapping and photographs of the lunar surface itself that we could accurately simulate those operations in lunar vicinity—near lunar vicinity—to the point we could even simulate the landing well, and utilizing features on the lunar surface to give us a roadmap to where we were going and what to do. The LLTV [Lunar Lander Training Vehicle] is a training device. It gave us that learning ability, with how the lunar module was going to react in 1/6g. So, all of these things, you take pieces of it and you just add them all together.

[Assistant] Now, were you training for Apollo 12. Like, does that start, like, before Apollo 11 goes to the Moon? I mean, is that an active thing or—

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] They overlap?

[User] They do. And the overlap really occurs in training. The flight that’s up to bat gets the facilities at the Cape. I mean, they’re prime. Their primary objective is to get as much training as they possibly can. But they essentially move to the Cape, and they had all the simulators at the Cape. We had, as a next flight at that time all the simulators and the facilities here at JSC. Once they’ve got out of the Cape and got out of the way, then you just moved right in behind them. And then the simulators at the Cape become your primary training joys.

[Assistant] So, you’re training. What kind of input, I mean, that—did you have into training in terms of saying, “This is working well,” “That’s not working well,” and then actually helping plan the mission. I mean, did you have any input on experiments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] They overlap?

[User] They do. And the overlap really occurs in training. The flight that’s up to bat gets the facilities at the Cape. I mean, they’re prime. Their primary objective is to get as much training as they possibly can. But they essentially move to the Cape, and they had all the simulators at the Cape. We had, as a next flight at that time all the simulators and the facilities here at JSC. Once they’ve got out of the Cape and got out of the way, then you just moved right in behind them. And then the simulators at the Cape become your primary training joys.

[Assistant] So, you’re training. What kind of input, I mean, that—did you have into training in terms of saying, “This is working well,” “That’s not working well,” and then actually helping plan the mission. I mean, did you have any input on experiments?

[User] Oh yes. Very much so. Because you’re—if you can’t perform the timeline the way it’s being portrayed to you or given to you, then you have to make changes. And as you train, as you simulate things, you’re modifying the flight plan as you go along. So, you’re training, you take the flight plan, you try to accomplish those things that are listed there in the timeline which they’re listed. And if you can’t perform them, if there’s some problem with it, then you modify the flight plan and make those changes that allow you to perform the mission.

[Assistant] What about even any actual hardware changes. Does anything come to mind that was changed because of input during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Very much so. Because you’re—if you can’t perform the timeline the way it’s being portrayed to you or given to you, then you have to make changes. And as you train, as you simulate things, you’re modifying the flight plan as you go along. So, you’re training, you take the flight plan, you try to accomplish those things that are listed there in the timeline which they’re listed. And if you can’t perform them, if there’s some problem with it, then you modify the flight plan and make those changes that allow you to perform the mission.

[Assistant] What about even any actual hardware changes. Does anything come to mind that was changed because of input during training?

[User] Can’t recall any of that. There may’ve been some devices that would allow us to handle cameras or those kinds of things that we may’ve suggested. But that’s an evolutionary process that it—the whole program follows along that line. And we had enough sense along—at that time and really it is to learn from the previous flights. As a matter of fact, we were on two-month launch centers in Apollo until 11 landed, then we took a breather and extended for two more months.\n\n So, it was four months between 11 and 12. So, it allowed us to—a little time to assimilate more things. And they kept adding experiments. The scientific community wanted us to accomplish, you know, probably more than we could. So, they added cameras and they had different lenses for different purposes and functions, and those modifications are made in an evolutionary sense.

[Assistant] Was there a discussion of experiments that you would do while you were up in the command module orbiting?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And what was your input to those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And what was your input to those?

[User] The one that I recall most vividly—and I had to go to George Low and then convince him of it—we had a set of four—we had a frame that went in the hatch window to photograph geological features on the lunar surface. There were slots for four Hasselblad cameras, a black-and-white, infrared, something else, and the experiment called for three cameras. And I went to him and I wanted a fourth camera in there, with true colors. The others were for experimental purposes, and I wanted to—I wanted a “gee whiz!” camera to be onboard. So, we—and George agreed, and we added the fourth camera.\n\n And those pictures were taken without much concern for aim, just other than positioning the spacecraft properly and letting it go at—in an orbital rate. And the inner velomiter was the one that took the pictures. So, that was one that I do vividly recall. We had a 500mm lens onboard that could not be handheld. We had to have a frame and utilize it as—so, there were a lot of little, tiny modifications that we had in that sense.

[Assistant] Was the sense that, “Why do you need a color camera? What color’s on the Moon?” Or—

[User] It changes with Sun angle. And I just thought it would be kind of a nice thing to have along as opposed to the normal scientific aspects of it.

[Assistant] Let—you finished your Apollo 12 training and you know you’re really going to go. Take us through the countdown. I mean, I assume you knew you were going to go, even though the weather was just horrible! I mean, did you I mean, what’s it like to go out there? You know, we see the images of, you know, here’s these three guys and you’re walking. You know, you’re carrying your little packs, and you’re walking up—high up on this platform. I mean, what is that like on launch day to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It changes with Sun angle. And I just thought it would be kind of a nice thing to have along as opposed to the normal scientific aspects of it.

[Assistant] Let—you finished your Apollo 12 training and you know you’re really going to go. Take us through the countdown. I mean, I assume you knew you were going to go, even though the weather was just horrible! I mean, did you I mean, what’s it like to go out there? You know, we see the images of, you know, here’s these three guys and you’re walking. You know, you’re carrying your little packs, and you’re walking up—high up on this platform. I mean, what is that like on launch day to—

[User] Fun.

[Assistant] Fun?

[User] Exciting. Sure. I got to sit outside while those two guys were getting strapped in. I got to stand up there and look at the weather and look at the coast of Florida and watch the black clouds come in and say, “Hey, this is real. That beast below us, that Saturn V, is a living, breathing object. It’s venting vapors and ice is falling off of it. And it’s a creature that’s just about to come alive.”

[Assistant] The weather was bad. Did you think you were really going to go that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fun.

[Assistant] Fun?

[User] Exciting. Sure. I got to sit outside while those two guys were getting strapped in. I got to stand up there and look at the weather and look at the coast of Florida and watch the black clouds come in and say, “Hey, this is real. That beast below us, that Saturn V, is a living, breathing object. It’s venting vapors and ice is falling off of it. And it’s a creature that’s just about to come alive.”

[Assistant] The weather was bad. Did you think you were really going to go that day?

[User] I wasn’t sure; I was not sure. We didn’t want a delay, because a delay would’ve meant that we had another month of agony.

[Assistant] Why a month?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t sure; I was not sure. We didn’t want a delay, because a delay would’ve meant that we had another month of agony.

[Assistant] Why a month?

[User] The lunar cycles.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That 28-day cycle exists, and your landing site is fixed and chosen. And as the Sun angle changes 13 degrees a day, we had to land at a very low Sun angle to provide shadow for depth perception. So, if we missed a launch time, you had another month to wait so that the Moon came around to the same position as before.

[Assistant] Well, as they’re loading you guys in, you know, we did talk with Guenter Wendt and he has all these stories about, you know, the antics and shenanigans out at the pad. Do you recall any from your—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The lunar cycles.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That 28-day cycle exists, and your landing site is fixed and chosen. And as the Sun angle changes 13 degrees a day, we had to land at a very low Sun angle to provide shadow for depth perception. So, if we missed a launch time, you had another month to wait so that the Moon came around to the same position as before.

[Assistant] Well, as they’re loading you guys in, you know, we did talk with Guenter Wendt and he has all these stories about, you know, the antics and shenanigans out at the pad. Do you recall any from your—

[User] Oh, he always had something. It’s to relieve the tension a little bit, you know. Have a few yucks and laugh and take away the tension that may or may not exist in the situation. But he was great to work with. He’s became a very good friend of all the crews; and he was great to be around.

[Assistant] You felt safe in his care?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That 28-day cycle exists, and your landing site is fixed and chosen. And as the Sun angle changes 13 degrees a day, we had to land at a very low Sun angle to provide shadow for depth perception. So, if we missed a launch time, you had another month to wait so that the Moon came around to the same position as before.

[Assistant] Well, as they’re loading you guys in, you know, we did talk with Guenter Wendt and he has all these stories about, you know, the antics and shenanigans out at the pad. Do you recall any from your—

[User] Oh, he always had something. It’s to relieve the tension a little bit, you know. Have a few yucks and laugh and take away the tension that may or may not exist in the situation. But he was great to work with. He’s became a very good friend of all the crews; and he was great to be around.

[Assistant] You felt safe in his care?

[User] Oh I don’t know if that’s—that may be a misnomer. I’m not sure you’re ever safe with Guenter! Because he always had some practical joke to play.

[Assistant] I guess President [Richard M.] Nixon was also at your launch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, he always had something. It’s to relieve the tension a little bit, you know. Have a few yucks and laugh and take away the tension that may or may not exist in the situation. But he was great to work with. He’s became a very good friend of all the crews; and he was great to be around.

[Assistant] You felt safe in his care?

[User] Oh I don’t know if that’s—that may be a misnomer. I’m not sure you’re ever safe with Guenter! Because he always had some practical joke to play.

[Assistant] I guess President [Richard M.] Nixon was also at your launch.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] First time a President was at a launch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh I don’t know if that’s—that may be a misnomer. I’m not sure you’re ever safe with Guenter! Because he always had some practical joke to play.

[Assistant] I guess President [Richard M.] Nixon was also at your launch.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] First time a President was at a launch.

[User] He got wet.

[Assistant] Yes. You know, some have speculated, like, maybe you just launched because he was there and they didn’t want to disappoint the President. Do you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] First time a President was at a launch.

[User] He got wet.

[Assistant] Yes. You know, some have speculated, like, maybe you just launched because he was there and they didn’t want to disappoint the President. Do you—

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] You don’t buy that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He got wet.

[Assistant] Yes. You know, some have speculated, like, maybe you just launched because he was there and they didn’t want to disappoint the President. Do you—

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] You don’t buy that?

[User] Nope.

[Assistant] They do launch. And describe—before we get to the lightning that struck your spacecraft—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] You don’t buy that?

[User] Nope.

[Assistant] They do launch. And describe—before we get to the lightning that struck your spacecraft—

[User] Well, we were concerned that they weren’t going. We wanted to go. And we were concerned because of the weather that it was going to be a delay and a hold, and we would not get to go. But we were probably not part of that decision-making process, with the exception that we probably conveyed that we were ready. And if they chose to go, go ahead and launch us. We never anticipated what was going to happen 36 seconds after liftoff.

[Assistant] Well, I’ve read—just to go back before liftoff just a minute. I’ve read that, like, a minute before liftoff that you and Pete Conrad and Alan Bean actually grasped hands and—describe that moment when you’re that close to launch and you know—I mean, what was that gesture to convey really? The sense that you guys were going on this grand adventure? Or—and did that really happen? I mean, I’ve read that you all grasped hands—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nope.

[Assistant] They do launch. And describe—before we get to the lightning that struck your spacecraft—

[User] Well, we were concerned that they weren’t going. We wanted to go. And we were concerned because of the weather that it was going to be a delay and a hold, and we would not get to go. But we were probably not part of that decision-making process, with the exception that we probably conveyed that we were ready. And if they chose to go, go ahead and launch us. We never anticipated what was going to happen 36 seconds after liftoff.

[Assistant] Well, I’ve read—just to go back before liftoff just a minute. I’ve read that, like, a minute before liftoff that you and Pete Conrad and Alan Bean actually grasped hands and—describe that moment when you’re that close to launch and you know—I mean, what was that gesture to convey really? The sense that you guys were going on this grand adventure? Or—and did that really happen? I mean, I’ve read that you all grasped hands—

[User] I think we probably did, wishing each other well. Good luck. Do a good job. Don’t mess anything up that I’ve got to correct! You know, it’s just kind of camaraderie that existed in that crew. It was just a gesture of wellbeing and bon voyage!

[Assistant] And then what is liftoff like? I mean, it’s not the Shuttle. It’s—I mean what is it like to ride a Saturn V?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s slow. Very slow. It shakes, rattles, and rolls, is actually what it does. Those engines gimbal and the four that gimbal on the Saturn V of the five engines, the four of them that move to position the spacecraft in the right attitude and point it in the right direction, you feel that all the way back up the stack, 320 ft away from them. It makes a lot of noise, and it’s been described as a freight train going straight up. And I guess that’s as apt a description as you can give. It’s a Saturn V going straight up, is what it is. But there’s a lot of dynamics involved with the liftoff. And it doesn’t smooth out until further down the road.

[Assistant] Well—and as you mentioned, 36 seconds into flight you’re struck by lightning. Did you know it? Did any—I read that Pete Conrad saw the flash but was the only one who really saw the flash.

[User] The only one that had a window.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The boost protective cover was still on, and that’s the only available window until the launch escape tower is jettisoned. He said he saw that flash, and the rest of us saw, as well as he did, all the warning lights come on the instrument panels.

[Assistant] Did you feel anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only one that had a window.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The boost protective cover was still on, and that’s the only available window until the launch escape tower is jettisoned. He said he saw that flash, and the rest of us saw, as well as he did, all the warning lights come on the instrument panels.

[Assistant] Did you feel anything?

[User] No, I did not.

[Assistant] Just see a bunch of—what was your thought when all those lights come on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The boost protective cover was still on, and that’s the only available window until the launch escape tower is jettisoned. He said he saw that flash, and the rest of us saw, as well as he did, all the warning lights come on the instrument panels.

[Assistant] Did you feel anything?

[User] No, I did not.

[Assistant] Just see a bunch of—what was your thought when all those lights come on?

[User] Kind of startled. We never anticipated anything like that. It was not part of the training syllabus! Simulations didn’t even come close to it. I always tell an anecdotal story about that. Whether it’s true or not, it doesn’t matter. It’s my story, so I usually tell it. And—\n\n You always get in a very competitive situation in training, like you want to be the first to discover how to solve a problem and you compete with each other, and you compete with the ground as well. Well, I was always all over the command module. That was my responsibility and my job, and I was always attempting to be the one that first came up with all the solutions. And I would not let Al—you know, I’d take care of everything. When those lights came on, I kind of looked up at the lights, I looked over at Al, and I looked back again, and I said, “Okay, Al. It’s all yours!” And went back to take care of the attitude with Pete. And whether that’s true or not, I always tell it that way because that’s the way I felt! Because I didn’t know what the hell to do.

[Assistant] And if you didn’t know, that was saying something, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] SCE.

[Assistant] —which I take it some people didn’t even know what it was? But did Pete Conrad know what SCE was?

[User] No. I claim that I did.

[Assistant] Oh really.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And so you all knew—you knew what this—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And so you all knew—you knew what this—

[User] That may have been a controversy. I had not had that experience with that before or John’s experience before that happened. But the SCE had a primary and an auxiliary, a secondary position. I think the call was, “Switch SCE to AUX.” Which was done right away.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] There’s some confusion whether I did it or Al Bean did it, because it was right here in front of me. I can see it today.

[Assistant] Do you remember if—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That may have been a controversy. I had not had that experience with that before or John’s experience before that happened. But the SCE had a primary and an auxiliary, a secondary position. I think the call was, “Switch SCE to AUX.” Which was done right away.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] There’s some confusion whether I did it or Al Bean did it, because it was right here in front of me. I can see it today.

[Assistant] Do you remember if—

[User] But it doesn’t matter. It got done.

[Assistant] —do you remember the reaction when it worked? When that made a difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s some confusion whether I did it or Al Bean did it, because it was right here in front of me. I can see it today.

[Assistant] Do you remember if—

[User] But it doesn’t matter. It got done.

[Assistant] —do you remember the reaction when it worked? When that made a difference?

[User] Well, there wasn’t much the ground could do, but it gave them the information they needed. They then were able to monitor systems once again.

[Assistant] And realized you were still on the right trajectory and that, apparently, you were hit by lightning a second time at 52 seconds. Did you even know that at the time? I mean—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it doesn’t matter. It got done.

[Assistant] —do you remember the reaction when it worked? When that made a difference?

[User] Well, there wasn’t much the ground could do, but it gave them the information they needed. They then were able to monitor systems once again.

[Assistant] And realized you were still on the right trajectory and that, apparently, you were hit by lightning a second time at 52 seconds. Did you even know that at the time? I mean—

[User] Well, we did. Because the only thing that—I didn’t know that we got hit. But the attitude reference system started to tumble, what we call “tumble.” Normally it’s very stationary and very stable and it shows you the attitude that you’re in roll, pitch, and yaw. And it started doing this, just—and the GDC, the gyro display coupler, was right next to it. This was one of those changes that were made early in the program to take it from the copilot’s side and put it back over on the commander’s side so he’d have two reference systems. Well, it was working fine. It was doing what it was supposed to do while this other crazy thing was just flopping all over the place.

[Assistant] The—I mean, I don’t know. I’m curious when you learned of the—that there was even a debate on the ground about what to do. Okay, this has happened. Has it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there wasn’t much the ground could do, but it gave them the information they needed. They then were able to monitor systems once again.

[Assistant] And realized you were still on the right trajectory and that, apparently, you were hit by lightning a second time at 52 seconds. Did you even know that at the time? I mean—

[User] Well, we did. Because the only thing that—I didn’t know that we got hit. But the attitude reference system started to tumble, what we call “tumble.” Normally it’s very stationary and very stable and it shows you the attitude that you’re in roll, pitch, and yaw. And it started doing this, just—and the GDC, the gyro display coupler, was right next to it. This was one of those changes that were made early in the program to take it from the copilot’s side and put it back over on the commander’s side so he’d have two reference systems. Well, it was working fine. It was doing what it was supposed to do while this other crazy thing was just flopping all over the place.

[Assistant] The—I mean, I don’t know. I’m curious when you learned of the—that there was even a debate on the ground about what to do. Okay, this has happened. Has it—

[User] Years later.

[Assistant] Really? Has anything been damaged? And what I—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did. Because the only thing that—I didn’t know that we got hit. But the attitude reference system started to tumble, what we call “tumble.” Normally it’s very stationary and very stable and it shows you the attitude that you’re in roll, pitch, and yaw. And it started doing this, just—and the GDC, the gyro display coupler, was right next to it. This was one of those changes that were made early in the program to take it from the copilot’s side and put it back over on the commander’s side so he’d have two reference systems. Well, it was working fine. It was doing what it was supposed to do while this other crazy thing was just flopping all over the place.

[Assistant] The—I mean, I don’t know. I’m curious when you learned of the—that there was even a debate on the ground about what to do. Okay, this has happened. Has it—

[User] Years later.

[Assistant] Really? Has anything been damaged? And what I—

[User] It was years later.

[Assistant] —what I—you didn’t know till years later that there was even discussion about just bringing you home right away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Years later.

[Assistant] Really? Has anything been damaged? And what I—

[User] It was years later.

[Assistant] —what I—you didn’t know till years later that there was even discussion about just bringing you home right away?

[User] No. We thought they might. We—but once we got into orbit and realigned the platform, there wasn’t any doubt in our mind that we should go.

[Assistant] Did you know that there—that part of the debate was, well, if what could have been damaged, which I guess was the pyrotechnic—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was years later.

[Assistant] —what I—you didn’t know till years later that there was even discussion about just bringing you home right away?

[User] No. We thought they might. We—but once we got into orbit and realigned the platform, there wasn’t any doubt in our mind that we should go.

[Assistant] Did you know that there—that part of the debate was, well, if what could have been damaged, which I guess was the pyrotechnic—

[User] The recovery system.

[Assistant] —system on the parachutes, did you know that there was discussion. “Well, if they’re going to crash into the ocean, they could do it now or they could go to the Moon, have that experience, and then crash into the ocean and die.” I mean, did you know it was that blatant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We thought they might. We—but once we got into orbit and realigned the platform, there wasn’t any doubt in our mind that we should go.

[Assistant] Did you know that there—that part of the debate was, well, if what could have been damaged, which I guess was the pyrotechnic—

[User] The recovery system.

[Assistant] —system on the parachutes, did you know that there was discussion. “Well, if they’re going to crash into the ocean, they could do it now or they could go to the Moon, have that experience, and then crash into the ocean and die.” I mean, did you know it was that blatant?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No? And if that really had been—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The recovery system.

[Assistant] —system on the parachutes, did you know that there was discussion. “Well, if they’re going to crash into the ocean, they could do it now or they could go to the Moon, have that experience, and then crash into the ocean and die.” I mean, did you know it was that blatant?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No? And if that really had been—

[User] If it had, we’d have gone to the Moon.

[Assistant] You would have—yeah. You liked the decision that was made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No? And if that really had been—

[User] If it had, we’d have gone to the Moon.

[Assistant] You would have—yeah. You liked the decision that was made.

[User] Absolutely. It was the right decision.

[Assistant] Do you know—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If it had, we’d have gone to the Moon.

[Assistant] You would have—yeah. You liked the decision that was made.

[User] Absolutely. It was the right decision.

[Assistant] Do you know—

[User] We weren’t conscious that that debate was going on at the time. Now that’s my recollection. Pete now may think differently, but I don’t think so. I—because we were concerned that they were going to bring us back home. Pure and simply. And we were afraid we were going to lose the mission. But once we found that we didn’t lose anything in the spacecraft, something very minor we did, but everything checked out and everything worked in the spacecraft that we were confident that we were going. We were concerned that there maybe had been some fear or caution in some of the decision makers that would counter that, but we thought we were going.

[Assistant] Do you know of any procedures or equipment that was changed on later flights because of your all’s experience of being hit by lightning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. It was the right decision.

[Assistant] Do you know—

[User] We weren’t conscious that that debate was going on at the time. Now that’s my recollection. Pete now may think differently, but I don’t think so. I—because we were concerned that they were going to bring us back home. Pure and simply. And we were afraid we were going to lose the mission. But once we found that we didn’t lose anything in the spacecraft, something very minor we did, but everything checked out and everything worked in the spacecraft that we were confident that we were going. We were concerned that there maybe had been some fear or caution in some of the decision makers that would counter that, but we thought we were going.

[Assistant] Do you know of any procedures or equipment that was changed on later flights because of your all’s experience of being hit by lightning?

[User] Yeah. “Don’t be stupid enough to launch in a thunderstorm!”

[Assistant] So, it was a procedure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We weren’t conscious that that debate was going on at the time. Now that’s my recollection. Pete now may think differently, but I don’t think so. I—because we were concerned that they were going to bring us back home. Pure and simply. And we were afraid we were going to lose the mission. But once we found that we didn’t lose anything in the spacecraft, something very minor we did, but everything checked out and everything worked in the spacecraft that we were confident that we were going. We were concerned that there maybe had been some fear or caution in some of the decision makers that would counter that, but we thought we were going.

[Assistant] Do you know of any procedures or equipment that was changed on later flights because of your all’s experience of being hit by lightning?

[User] Yeah. “Don’t be stupid enough to launch in a thunderstorm!”

[Assistant] So, it was a procedure.

[User] That was a change that was made.

[Assistant] Really. Well, you know what? They still have launched some unmanned rockets during thunderstorms.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. “Don’t be stupid enough to launch in a thunderstorm!”

[Assistant] So, it was a procedure.

[User] That was a change that was made.

[Assistant] Really. Well, you know what? They still have launched some unmanned rockets during thunderstorms.

[User] Yeah, and what happened to them? They end up on the beach.

[Assistant] Yeah. In your training, and you may have addressed this but I want to be clear about it, had you practiced resetting the entire navigation platform in such a short period of time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a change that was made.

[Assistant] Really. Well, you know what? They still have launched some unmanned rockets during thunderstorms.

[User] Yeah, and what happened to them? They end up on the beach.

[Assistant] Yeah. In your training, and you may have addressed this but I want to be clear about it, had you practiced resetting the entire navigation platform in such a short period of time?

[User] Um-hmm.

[Assistant] You had practiced that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and what happened to them? They end up on the beach.

[Assistant] Yeah. In your training, and you may have addressed this but I want to be clear about it, had you practiced resetting the entire navigation platform in such a short period of time?

[User] Um-hmm.

[Assistant] You had practiced that.

[User] Oh, there were two programs called P-51, which was an initial alignment, and P-52, which was a program in the computers that did the final alignment and adjusting it. Yes, we worked both of those programs. P-52 is easy because it already had a reference system to go to, and it would find the stars on its own.

[Assistant] Was it Al Bean who was realigning that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um-hmm.

[Assistant] You had practiced that.

[User] Oh, there were two programs called P-51, which was an initial alignment, and P-52, which was a program in the computers that did the final alignment and adjusting it. Yes, we worked both of those programs. P-52 is easy because it already had a reference system to go to, and it would find the stars on its own.

[Assistant] Was it Al Bean who was realigning that?

[User] No, I did that.

[Assistant] Okay, you did that. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, there were two programs called P-51, which was an initial alignment, and P-52, which was a program in the computers that did the final alignment and adjusting it. Yes, we worked both of those programs. P-52 is easy because it already had a reference system to go to, and it would find the stars on its own.

[Assistant] Was it Al Bean who was realigning that?

[User] No, I did that.

[Assistant] Okay, you did that. Okay.

[User] I wouldn’t let Al do anything in the command module.

[Assistant] Talk about your relationship a little bit with Pete Conrad and Al Bean. I mean, I take it you and Pete Conrad go back to even have been roommates on an aircraft carrier. But talk about just the personal relationship that developed between the three of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did that.

[Assistant] Okay, you did that. Okay.

[User] I wouldn’t let Al do anything in the command module.

[Assistant] Talk about your relationship a little bit with Pete Conrad and Al Bean. I mean, I take it you and Pete Conrad go back to even have been roommates on an aircraft carrier. But talk about just the personal relationship that developed between the three of you.

[User] I’m not quite sure I know how to describe the relationship. It probably, over time, I guess these kind of relationships can develop. Pete and I could communicate without talking. We trusted each other. We thought alike. The same—we had—we reacted to the same stimuli the same. It was just—the thing that developed over the time we had complete trust in each other; and Al was brought along in that sense, too, over a period of time. But Pete and I had that going in.\n\n And we brought Al—Pete knew Al, of course, because he was a student of his when Pete was an instructor. So, that relationship may have been started. At the time, as a matter of fact, Al got on our crew because Pete went to Deke after C. C. was killed and asked for him. But—and it worked out great, because we three became very, very close, very good friends, which we still are today.

[Assistant]
Do you think that—Deke—Okay. They need to switch us to a new tape. [Recorder turned off.]

We were talking about your friendship with Pete Conrad and Alan Bean, that you all spent so much time together in your training. And I’m curious whether you think Deke Slayton knew about that friendship and whether it played any role in—give me a sense of what you think played a role in Deke Slayton matching people up and how he assigned them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No. You live in the present. You follow the flight plan. And you flip the page to see what you’re supposed to do next. And we have checklists for everything we did, even how to go to the bathroom there’s a checklist!

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] Some people have described that not being very fun. That particular—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. You live in the present. You follow the flight plan. And you flip the page to see what you’re supposed to do next. And we have checklists for everything we did, even how to go to the bathroom there’s a checklist!

[Assistant] Really.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] Some people have described that not being very fun. That particular—

[User] Well, we’re human beings and we have to do those things. And there is a checklist to how to do it.

[Assistant] That’s amazing. Talk a little bit about the feeling of being the command module pilot, closing that hatch, and being the one who flips the switch to send your two good friends on the way to the Moon. I mean, what’s that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] Some people have described that not being very fun. That particular—

[User] Well, we’re human beings and we have to do those things. And there is a checklist to how to do it.

[Assistant] That’s amazing. Talk a little bit about the feeling of being the command module pilot, closing that hatch, and being the one who flips the switch to send your two good friends on the way to the Moon. I mean, what’s that like?

[User] A release. If you knew those two guys, you’d be glad to get rid of them for 42 hours! I was all alone. It’s envy maybe, a little bit. The name of the game as far as I was concerned was to walk on the Moon. And at that time, I was relegated not to do that. And I had a job and a function to perform. And you—people, human beings have a great ability to rationalize their own importance I guess. And that’s the kinds of things you do. And I was happy for them, that they were going to go get to do that. Al Bean has subsequently made a painting, it’s called The Fantasy; and in his painting he says he could do whatever he wants to do with his paintings. And he’s got one of all three of us standing on the lunar surface.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we’re human beings and we have to do those things. And there is a checklist to how to do it.

[Assistant] That’s amazing. Talk a little bit about the feeling of being the command module pilot, closing that hatch, and being the one who flips the switch to send your two good friends on the way to the Moon. I mean, what’s that like?

[User] A release. If you knew those two guys, you’d be glad to get rid of them for 42 hours! I was all alone. It’s envy maybe, a little bit. The name of the game as far as I was concerned was to walk on the Moon. And at that time, I was relegated not to do that. And I had a job and a function to perform. And you—people, human beings have a great ability to rationalize their own importance I guess. And that’s the kinds of things you do. And I was happy for them, that they were going to go get to do that. Al Bean has subsequently made a painting, it’s called The Fantasy; and in his painting he says he could do whatever he wants to do with his paintings. And he’s got one of all three of us standing on the lunar surface.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.

[User] I thought that’s pretty neat.

[Assistant] He’s a great painter. Do you—I’m going to go ahead and ask you about that issue of not going to the Moon, since it might come up later. And then I’m going to backtrack a little bit. But since you brought it up: how do you ever get over that disappointment? Or is it disappointment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A release. If you knew those two guys, you’d be glad to get rid of them for 42 hours! I was all alone. It’s envy maybe, a little bit. The name of the game as far as I was concerned was to walk on the Moon. And at that time, I was relegated not to do that. And I had a job and a function to perform. And you—people, human beings have a great ability to rationalize their own importance I guess. And that’s the kinds of things you do. And I was happy for them, that they were going to go get to do that. Al Bean has subsequently made a painting, it’s called The Fantasy; and in his painting he says he could do whatever he wants to do with his paintings. And he’s got one of all three of us standing on the lunar surface.

[Assistant] Oh, how nice.

[User] I thought that’s pretty neat.

[Assistant] He’s a great painter. Do you—I’m going to go ahead and ask you about that issue of not going to the Moon, since it might come up later. And then I’m going to backtrack a little bit. But since you brought it up: how do you ever get over that disappointment? Or is it disappointment?

[User] No, there wasn’t. At the time, it wasn’t a disappointment.

[Assistant] Because you thought you would go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought that’s pretty neat.

[Assistant] He’s a great painter. Do you—I’m going to go ahead and ask you about that issue of not going to the Moon, since it might come up later. And then I’m going to backtrack a little bit. But since you brought it up: how do you ever get over that disappointment? Or is it disappointment?

[User] No, there wasn’t. At the time, it wasn’t a disappointment.

[Assistant] Because you thought you would go.

[User] You had—within this three-flight rotation, I wanted to stay in Apollo and have the opportunity to go back again. Pete and Al chose, because they had walked on the Moon, they’d go off and do different things. I still had 60 miles to go. And when I became the backup commander on 15, fully anticipating that I would rotate once again and be the commander on 18, well, we all know the story that 17 was the last one. At that time, we had—did not know that. If I had known at that time that I would not have the opportunity to fly again, I may have chosen what Al and Pete chose to do, to fly in Skylab. Because I wanted to fly again obviously. Well, you could tell: when there were no more flights, I left. But that’s the way I looked at that on Apollo 12, that I would have the opportunity to go a second time.

[Assistant] Did you—I’ve read that you teased Gene Cernan about stealing your crewmate was Harrison [H.] Schmitt, Jack—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there wasn’t. At the time, it wasn’t a disappointment.

[Assistant] Because you thought you would go.

[User] You had—within this three-flight rotation, I wanted to stay in Apollo and have the opportunity to go back again. Pete and Al chose, because they had walked on the Moon, they’d go off and do different things. I still had 60 miles to go. And when I became the backup commander on 15, fully anticipating that I would rotate once again and be the commander on 18, well, we all know the story that 17 was the last one. At that time, we had—did not know that. If I had known at that time that I would not have the opportunity to fly again, I may have chosen what Al and Pete chose to do, to fly in Skylab. Because I wanted to fly again obviously. Well, you could tell: when there were no more flights, I left. But that’s the way I looked at that on Apollo 12, that I would have the opportunity to go a second time.

[Assistant] Did you—I’ve read that you teased Gene Cernan about stealing your crewmate was Harrison [H.] Schmitt, Jack—

[User] Oh, we still play that game.

[Assistant] So, Jack Schmitt, the only geologist astronaut, you know, sometimes you read “the only scientist astronaut,” I’m sure you don’t like that when people say, “The only scientist in the—”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You had—within this three-flight rotation, I wanted to stay in Apollo and have the opportunity to go back again. Pete and Al chose, because they had walked on the Moon, they’d go off and do different things. I still had 60 miles to go. And when I became the backup commander on 15, fully anticipating that I would rotate once again and be the commander on 18, well, we all know the story that 17 was the last one. At that time, we had—did not know that. If I had known at that time that I would not have the opportunity to fly again, I may have chosen what Al and Pete chose to do, to fly in Skylab. Because I wanted to fly again obviously. Well, you could tell: when there were no more flights, I left. But that’s the way I looked at that on Apollo 12, that I would have the opportunity to go a second time.

[Assistant] Did you—I’ve read that you teased Gene Cernan about stealing your crewmate was Harrison [H.] Schmitt, Jack—

[User] Oh, we still play that game.

[Assistant] So, Jack Schmitt, the only geologist astronaut, you know, sometimes you read “the only scientist astronaut,” I’m sure you don’t like that when people say, “The only scientist in the—”

[User] It doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me at all.

[Assistant] You all became scientists, I take it. But the only geologist—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we still play that game.

[Assistant] So, Jack Schmitt, the only geologist astronaut, you know, sometimes you read “the only scientist astronaut,” I’m sure you don’t like that when people say, “The only scientist in the—”

[User] It doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me at all.

[Assistant] You all became scientists, I take it. But the only geologist—

[User] Well, he was the only one with a Ph.D. at that time in geology. And—

[Assistant] Were you aware of the politics in terms of the finagling to get him on that last-minute flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me at all.

[Assistant] You all became scientists, I take it. But the only geologist—

[User] Well, he was the only one with a Ph.D. at that time in geology. And—

[Assistant] Were you aware of the politics in terms of the finagling to get him on that last-minute flight?

[User] Oh I—sure. Sure. When I discovered that 17 was going to be the last one, I wanted to keep the crew together obviously, because we had trained. And Gene and I have always had a lot of fun. After he crashed his helicopter, I knew he wasn’t going to get to fly it. But I wanted to keep the crew together, and I had an audience with Deke and Al Shepard and told them that I thought the right decision was to keep the crew together and let us fly 17. It lasted maybe a minute or two. They politely listened to what I had to say and the three-flight rotation held. With the exception that Jack took Joe [H.] Engle’s place.

[Assistant] Do you know why, though, that there—I mean, you know, they bumped Joe Engle and let Jack Schmitt go. But do you, to this day, know why they wouldn’t bump Gene Cernan—as you said, especially considering he had had a helicopter crash in Florida—and not give you the chance to fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was the only one with a Ph.D. at that time in geology. And—

[Assistant] Were you aware of the politics in terms of the finagling to get him on that last-minute flight?

[User] Oh I—sure. Sure. When I discovered that 17 was going to be the last one, I wanted to keep the crew together obviously, because we had trained. And Gene and I have always had a lot of fun. After he crashed his helicopter, I knew he wasn’t going to get to fly it. But I wanted to keep the crew together, and I had an audience with Deke and Al Shepard and told them that I thought the right decision was to keep the crew together and let us fly 17. It lasted maybe a minute or two. They politely listened to what I had to say and the three-flight rotation held. With the exception that Jack took Joe [H.] Engle’s place.

[Assistant] Do you know why, though, that there—I mean, you know, they bumped Joe Engle and let Jack Schmitt go. But do you, to this day, know why they wouldn’t bump Gene Cernan—as you said, especially considering he had had a helicopter crash in Florida—and not give you the chance to fly?

[User] Well, he was the backup on 14. It was his turn to fly 17. And his book described—I think he in his book addresses that aspect of it very, very well in that particular section. And I only complained to Gene that he made one mistake. He said that we were equal at that time, and there was no way that we were equal!

[Assistant] Because you had flown more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh I—sure. Sure. When I discovered that 17 was going to be the last one, I wanted to keep the crew together obviously, because we had trained. And Gene and I have always had a lot of fun. After he crashed his helicopter, I knew he wasn’t going to get to fly it. But I wanted to keep the crew together, and I had an audience with Deke and Al Shepard and told them that I thought the right decision was to keep the crew together and let us fly 17. It lasted maybe a minute or two. They politely listened to what I had to say and the three-flight rotation held. With the exception that Jack took Joe [H.] Engle’s place.

[Assistant] Do you know why, though, that there—I mean, you know, they bumped Joe Engle and let Jack Schmitt go. But do you, to this day, know why they wouldn’t bump Gene Cernan—as you said, especially considering he had had a helicopter crash in Florida—and not give you the chance to fly?

[User] Well, he was the backup on 14. It was his turn to fly 17. And his book described—I think he in his book addresses that aspect of it very, very well in that particular section. And I only complained to Gene that he made one mistake. He said that we were equal at that time, and there was no way that we were equal!

[Assistant] Because you had flown more.

[User] Aw, gee whiz. I was the backup commander on 15, in the lunar rover, the extended EVAs. Hell, give me a break!

[Assistant] What was your reaction at the time? I mean at the time—you know, you have 30 years to look back and some of the bitterness might be gone. But at the time, you had to be pretty angry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was the backup on 14. It was his turn to fly 17. And his book described—I think he in his book addresses that aspect of it very, very well in that particular section. And I only complained to Gene that he made one mistake. He said that we were equal at that time, and there was no way that we were equal!

[Assistant] Because you had flown more.

[User] Aw, gee whiz. I was the backup commander on 15, in the lunar rover, the extended EVAs. Hell, give me a break!

[Assistant] What was your reaction at the time? I mean at the time—you know, you have 30 years to look back and some of the bitterness might be gone. But at the time, you had to be pretty angry.

[User] No, not really angry. I respected what Al and Deke did. I felt sorry that Joe Engle had gotten bumped. I think in retrospect Gene even thinks today that the better decision may have been to keep the crew together. I don’t know. But I was disappointed, certainly. But I don’t think there was any anger there involved that, you know, or we’re adults. And we accept decisions like that.

[Assistant] Well, let’s go back to Apollo 12 for a little bit. And you’ve sent them off to the Moon. And Pete’s going to attempt this first pinpoint landing, because we all know that Neil’s landing was, you know, it was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Aw, gee whiz. I was the backup commander on 15, in the lunar rover, the extended EVAs. Hell, give me a break!

[Assistant] What was your reaction at the time? I mean at the time—you know, you have 30 years to look back and some of the bitterness might be gone. But at the time, you had to be pretty angry.

[User] No, not really angry. I respected what Al and Deke did. I felt sorry that Joe Engle had gotten bumped. I think in retrospect Gene even thinks today that the better decision may have been to keep the crew together. I don’t know. But I was disappointed, certainly. But I don’t think there was any anger there involved that, you know, or we’re adults. And we accept decisions like that.

[Assistant] Well, let’s go back to Apollo 12 for a little bit. And you’ve sent them off to the Moon. And Pete’s going to attempt this first pinpoint landing, because we all know that Neil’s landing was, you know, it was—

[User] Somewhere.

[Assistant] —it was somewhere. It was high drama, is what it was. And they didn’t want to do that again. They wanted to perfect this technique of the pinpoint landing. Could you see them land? Or did you see them after the fact? I mean, you’ve said it was partially your good eyesight. But you literally could tell where they landed at some point when—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If they hadn’t been there and I’d have been wrong, it would’ve been an embarrassing situation.

[Assistant] Was there this sense of excitement, to be the one to report the pinpoint landing was a success? That you could tell that visually when you spotted it.

[User] No, I don’t think that I sensed that that was part of it. I just wanted to relay to the ground, before it ever got out, that we were successful in landing there. And the EVAs had been planned would be able to be carried out in a manner in which they were planned to do it.

[Assistant] Now they’re down on the Moon for 38 hours and you’re up there. And you can hear this Mission Control relay of the audio, so you can hear what they’re doing and hear—and I take it, sometimes you hear Pete Conrad humming. I guess he had this habit of humming while he worked?

[User] Only when he was scared.

[Assistant] Really! Did you make that up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think that I sensed that that was part of it. I just wanted to relay to the ground, before it ever got out, that we were successful in landing there. And the EVAs had been planned would be able to be carried out in a manner in which they were planned to do it.

[Assistant] Now they’re down on the Moon for 38 hours and you’re up there. And you can hear this Mission Control relay of the audio, so you can hear what they’re doing and hear—and I take it, sometimes you hear Pete Conrad humming. I guess he had this habit of humming while he worked?

[User] Only when he was scared.

[Assistant] Really! Did you make that up?

[User] Yes, I sure did!

[Assistant] Right, that’ll go in the history book. “He was humming on the Moon because he was scared, according to Dick Gordon.” So, okay, you were joking. But you’re hearing them down there. What’s going through your mind? I mean, what are you doing up there? You know, I know you had things to do. But I just mean from an emotional standpoint, when you’re hearing them down there, what is the thought process that you have orbiting 60 miles up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only when he was scared.

[Assistant] Really! Did you make that up?

[User] Yes, I sure did!

[Assistant] Right, that’ll go in the history book. “He was humming on the Moon because he was scared, according to Dick Gordon.” So, okay, you were joking. But you’re hearing them down there. What’s going through your mind? I mean, what are you doing up there? You know, I know you had things to do. But I just mean from an emotional standpoint, when you’re hearing them down there, what is the thought process that you have orbiting 60 miles up?

[User] Gee, I’m not sure I can recall that. I think that if I had a reaction to that other than being concerned about what I had to do, was the fact that we were going to have a very successful mission and things were going according to plan. You know, when he would say certain things with the ALSEP, and I heard the problem that Al was trying to get it out of the cask and this sort of thing, that I had a sense that their activities on the Moon were going to be successful and as planned. That was probably the only thing that I felt about it. You know, Pete emotes very well and you react to that. You get to know what he is thinking and doing at the time that those things are going on.

[Assistant] Well, you also have the distinction, though, of being one of six men who get to be the only people, you know, who orbited the Moon alone. You know, that you’re completely by yourself. And what’s it like to be just completely alone in that vast void?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hate that word.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There is no such thing as political correctness. That’s rubbish!

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Keep that in. I think those things were done by the backup crew to have a little moment of levity, a little lightness in a tense situation, if you will, that got a little chuckle, a little reminder of, “Hey, life isn’t all that serious. Let’s have a little fun while we’re doing some of these things.” And I enjoyed it. The flight plan was full of it. We had Snoopy cartoons and everything; [Charles] Schultz did this, decorated our—the backup crew did all this. We never bothered with it. We were too busy doing other things, and they took the time to remind us of the “humanality” of the whole situation, if that’s a correct word.

[Assistant] No, I mean, it is. And did it have that effect of saying, “Don’t take everything so seriously.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There is no such thing as political correctness. That’s rubbish!

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Keep that in. I think those things were done by the backup crew to have a little moment of levity, a little lightness in a tense situation, if you will, that got a little chuckle, a little reminder of, “Hey, life isn’t all that serious. Let’s have a little fun while we’re doing some of these things.” And I enjoyed it. The flight plan was full of it. We had Snoopy cartoons and everything; [Charles] Schultz did this, decorated our—the backup crew did all this. We never bothered with it. We were too busy doing other things, and they took the time to remind us of the “humanality” of the whole situation, if that’s a correct word.

[Assistant] No, I mean, it is. And did it have that effect of saying, “Don’t take everything so seriously.”

[User] Well, it let you have a little chuckle every now and then. You know, that we’re doing something, you know, that’s serious, but there’s also a little time to lighten up and get a life.

[Assistant] Now since you all—you were the second Moon landing mission, you know, you knew—you didn’t have, I take it that tension of, you know, “Will the LM really work and blast off?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Keep that in. I think those things were done by the backup crew to have a little moment of levity, a little lightness in a tense situation, if you will, that got a little chuckle, a little reminder of, “Hey, life isn’t all that serious. Let’s have a little fun while we’re doing some of these things.” And I enjoyed it. The flight plan was full of it. We had Snoopy cartoons and everything; [Charles] Schultz did this, decorated our—the backup crew did all this. We never bothered with it. We were too busy doing other things, and they took the time to remind us of the “humanality” of the whole situation, if that’s a correct word.

[Assistant] No, I mean, it is. And did it have that effect of saying, “Don’t take everything so seriously.”

[User] Well, it let you have a little chuckle every now and then. You know, that we’re doing something, you know, that’s serious, but there’s also a little time to lighten up and get a life.

[Assistant] Now since you all—you were the second Moon landing mission, you know, you knew—you didn’t have, I take it that tension of, you know, “Will the LM really work and blast off?”

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] But you still have it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it let you have a little chuckle every now and then. You know, that we’re doing something, you know, that’s serious, but there’s also a little time to lighten up and get a life.

[Assistant] Now since you all—you were the second Moon landing mission, you know, you knew—you didn’t have, I take it that tension of, you know, “Will the LM really work and blast off?”

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] But you still have it.

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] So, what was it like when they’re, you know, blasting off to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] But you still have it.

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] So, what was it like when they’re, you know, blasting off to—

[User] Every flight’s a new ballgame. You can’t go back and reuse Apollo 11’s hardware. You know it worked, but you can’t use it. You’ve got your own to deal with. But being second is a very unique position. Nobody remembers who was second. I tell that to Buzz [Edwin E. Aldrin, Jr.] all the time. But it’s the truth. We were second in this, that, and the other thing. And—but that’s okay. I mean, that goes with that territory as well. I kid Gene Cernan a lot about this. He’s talking about being the last man on the Moon. I said, “Gene, you’ll not always be the last man on the Moon, but Neil will always be the first man in the Moon.”

[Assistant] Let’s hope we go back someday.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, you do.

[Assistant] So, what was it like when they’re, you know, blasting off to—

[User] Every flight’s a new ballgame. You can’t go back and reuse Apollo 11’s hardware. You know it worked, but you can’t use it. You’ve got your own to deal with. But being second is a very unique position. Nobody remembers who was second. I tell that to Buzz [Edwin E. Aldrin, Jr.] all the time. But it’s the truth. We were second in this, that, and the other thing. And—but that’s okay. I mean, that goes with that territory as well. I kid Gene Cernan a lot about this. He’s talking about being the last man on the Moon. I said, “Gene, you’ll not always be the last man on the Moon, but Neil will always be the first man in the Moon.”

[Assistant] Let’s hope we go back someday.

[User] We will.

[Assistant] So, they’re coming up to rendezvous with you. And what do you have to do to make that process happen, as the command module pilot? Walk us through the steps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We will.

[Assistant] So, they’re coming up to rendezvous with you. And what do you have to do to make that process happen, as the command module pilot? Walk us through the steps.

[User] It’s a reverse process that they’re going through. They’re the active vehicle when they come up off of liftoff and rendezvous. There’s all kinds of things that can happen. The command module has the ability to rescue the lunar module—provided that they get into what we call a clear lunar orbit, which meant ten miles. If they could get into orbit at least ten miles above the surface, we had the capability to go down and get them and pick them up. So, what you’re doing is, while they’re the active vehicle in a rendezvous and doing their ranging and range rates and figuring out all the procedures for rendezvous, you’re doing the same thing in reverse.\n\n You’re looking at them. You’re tracking them. You’re using the computer to calculate range and range rates and let the computer tell you what the thrust changes. The velocity changes at each particular step along the way, so—and it’s just a reverse sign. If theirs is a plus, yours is a minus, and those kind of things. So, in absolute terms, you compare the numbers with each other. Of course, the ground has an input as well. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re watching them approach and trying to solve the same rendezvous equations that they are.

[Assistant] And are they flying into you? Or are you capturing them?

[User] No, they’re flying. They’re coming up to my altitude and my velocity, and they’re matching my orbit at 60 miles.

[Assistant] And then when you do the actual capture—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a reverse process that they’re going through. They’re the active vehicle when they come up off of liftoff and rendezvous. There’s all kinds of things that can happen. The command module has the ability to rescue the lunar module—provided that they get into what we call a clear lunar orbit, which meant ten miles. If they could get into orbit at least ten miles above the surface, we had the capability to go down and get them and pick them up. So, what you’re doing is, while they’re the active vehicle in a rendezvous and doing their ranging and range rates and figuring out all the procedures for rendezvous, you’re doing the same thing in reverse.\n\n You’re looking at them. You’re tracking them. You’re using the computer to calculate range and range rates and let the computer tell you what the thrust changes. The velocity changes at each particular step along the way, so—and it’s just a reverse sign. If theirs is a plus, yours is a minus, and those kind of things. So, in absolute terms, you compare the numbers with each other. Of course, the ground has an input as well. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re watching them approach and trying to solve the same rendezvous equations that they are.

[Assistant] And are they flying into you? Or are you capturing them?

[User] No, they’re flying. They’re coming up to my altitude and my velocity, and they’re matching my orbit at 60 miles.

[Assistant] And then when you do the actual capture—

[User] The docking itself?

[Assistant] The docking itself, who’s active for—I mean, who’s grabbing who?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they’re flying. They’re coming up to my altitude and my velocity, and they’re matching my orbit at 60 miles.

[Assistant] And then when you do the actual capture—

[User] The docking itself?

[Assistant] The docking itself, who’s active for—I mean, who’s grabbing who?

[User] The command module is. They come up and stationkeep at ten feet away or so. And there’s a docking target on the lunar module. I don’t know if we can find one around, but there is a cross, T-cross on the lunar module that the command module pilot, looking straight ahead out his window, aligns with and does—is the active participant in the docking itself.

[Assistant] And then you grab them, first try. No problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The docking itself?

[Assistant] The docking itself, who’s active for—I mean, who’s grabbing who?

[User] The command module is. They come up and stationkeep at ten feet away or so. And there’s a docking target on the lunar module. I don’t know if we can find one around, but there is a cross, T-cross on the lunar module that the command module pilot, looking straight ahead out his window, aligns with and does—is the active participant in the docking itself.

[Assistant] And then you grab them, first try. No problem.

[User] Yeah, the lug probe goes into a drogue and latches on. And that—when it latches on, you throw a switch and pull the lunar module right into the capture latches of the command module. You have what they call a hard dock.

[Assistant] Was there—do you—could you feel that docking? You knew you had them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The command module is. They come up and stationkeep at ten feet away or so. And there’s a docking target on the lunar module. I don’t know if we can find one around, but there is a cross, T-cross on the lunar module that the command module pilot, looking straight ahead out his window, aligns with and does—is the active participant in the docking itself.

[Assistant] And then you grab them, first try. No problem.

[User] Yeah, the lug probe goes into a drogue and latches on. And that—when it latches on, you throw a switch and pull the lunar module right into the capture latches of the command module. You have what they call a hard dock.

[Assistant] Was there—do you—could you feel that docking? You knew you had them?

[User] You could see it, and you could feel it. They’re not as—it happens very, very slow. It’s a slow maneuver, so you’re going maybe—probably less than a tenth of a foot a second. But you can feel a slight—you go—but you can look out and see the vehicle the whole time, and kind of go—as soon as it docks.

[Assistant] How long after that docking is it before you, you know, open up and let them in? And I’ve read that you didn’t let them in right away because they were so dirty filthy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the lug probe goes into a drogue and latches on. And that—when it latches on, you throw a switch and pull the lunar module right into the capture latches of the command module. You have what they call a hard dock.

[Assistant] Was there—do you—could you feel that docking? You knew you had them?

[User] You could see it, and you could feel it. They’re not as—it happens very, very slow. It’s a slow maneuver, so you’re going maybe—probably less than a tenth of a foot a second. But you can feel a slight—you go—but you can look out and see the vehicle the whole time, and kind of go—as soon as it docks.

[Assistant] How long after that docking is it before you, you know, open up and let them in? And I’ve read that you didn’t let them in right away because they were so dirty filthy.

[User] True story.

[Assistant] So—but how long of a delay? How—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could see it, and you could feel it. They’re not as—it happens very, very slow. It’s a slow maneuver, so you’re going maybe—probably less than a tenth of a foot a second. But you can feel a slight—you go—but you can look out and see the vehicle the whole time, and kind of go—as soon as it docks.

[Assistant] How long after that docking is it before you, you know, open up and let them in? And I’ve read that you didn’t let them in right away because they were so dirty filthy.

[User] True story.

[Assistant] So—but how long of a delay? How—

[User] I think it’s right—virtually right away. Once the docking takes place, you pressurize the tunnel between the two vehicles, and then you equalize that pressure between the command module and the tunnel. And at the same time as equalizing between a LM, so that all three sections are virtually at the same pressure, take the hatch out of the command module, stow it, and check the docking latches. Make sure that all the latches are connected. Make an electrical connection. And clear out the probe and all that, because the tunnel is completely open, and then when they open their hatch to transfer the lunar materials and whatever they need to bring back in.

[Assistant] So, you really wouldn’t let them in right away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] True story.

[Assistant] So—but how long of a delay? How—

[User] I think it’s right—virtually right away. Once the docking takes place, you pressurize the tunnel between the two vehicles, and then you equalize that pressure between the command module and the tunnel. And at the same time as equalizing between a LM, so that all three sections are virtually at the same pressure, take the hatch out of the command module, stow it, and check the docking latches. Make sure that all the latches are connected. Make an electrical connection. And clear out the probe and all that, because the tunnel is completely open, and then when they open their hatch to transfer the lunar materials and whatever they need to bring back in.

[Assistant] So, you really wouldn’t let them in right away?

[User] Nope. They were too dirty.

[Assistant] Tell us that story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it’s right—virtually right away. Once the docking takes place, you pressurize the tunnel between the two vehicles, and then you equalize that pressure between the command module and the tunnel. And at the same time as equalizing between a LM, so that all three sections are virtually at the same pressure, take the hatch out of the command module, stow it, and check the docking latches. Make sure that all the latches are connected. Make an electrical connection. And clear out the probe and all that, because the tunnel is completely open, and then when they open their hatch to transfer the lunar materials and whatever they need to bring back in.

[Assistant] So, you really wouldn’t let them in right away?

[User] Nope. They were too dirty.

[Assistant] Tell us that story.

[User] It’s very simple. I had a clean command module, and I looked out in there and I couldn’t even see them! There was a big, black cloud. I thought Joe BFSTPLK had been along for the ride. But I said, “You know, this—you guys are going to just get all that dust and dirt inside the command module. You can’t come in until you take off all your clothes and put them in these bags.” And that’s what they did.

[Assistant] So, you made them strip naked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s very simple. I had a clean command module, and I looked out in there and I couldn’t even see them! There was a big, black cloud. I thought Joe BFSTPLK had been along for the ride. But I said, “You know, this—you guys are going to just get all that dust and dirt inside the command module. You can’t come in until you take off all your clothes and put them in these bags.” And that’s what they did.

[Assistant] So, you made them strip naked?

[User] They were buck naked.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] The first space streakers.

[Assistant] Did the—did any dust come in with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were buck naked.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] The first space streakers.

[Assistant] Did the—did any dust come in with them?

[User] A little, probably. It’s—you know, in zero-g things tend to float around, and there’s circulation with the air. But they actually bagged up their suits, put them in bags, and handed them over. And I stowed them in the command module, and I flew them back home.

[Assistant] Well, now the big event’s over. What’s that ride home like where, you know, it’s not anticipation anymore? It’s—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first space streakers.

[Assistant] Did the—did any dust come in with them?

[User] A little, probably. It’s—you know, in zero-g things tend to float around, and there’s circulation with the air. But they actually bagged up their suits, put them in bags, and handed them over. And I stowed them in the command module, and I flew them back home.

[Assistant] Well, now the big event’s over. What’s that ride home like where, you know, it’s not anticipation anymore? It’s—

[User] Different. Totally different than going out, you’re right. Three days of not much activity coming back, except for the barbican maneuver. And there’s certain navigational things to perform. But it’s not much going on. And—

[Assistant] Is it a letdown?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little, probably. It’s—you know, in zero-g things tend to float around, and there’s circulation with the air. But they actually bagged up their suits, put them in bags, and handed them over. And I stowed them in the command module, and I flew them back home.

[Assistant] Well, now the big event’s over. What’s that ride home like where, you know, it’s not anticipation anymore? It’s—

[User] Different. Totally different than going out, you’re right. Three days of not much activity coming back, except for the barbican maneuver. And there’s certain navigational things to perform. But it’s not much going on. And—

[Assistant] Is it a letdown?

[User] Somewhat maybe. You still have a reentry to go through and everything. But it’s a lack of activity. I had a sense of, “Well, gee, it’s kind of boring.” Except, my job was better than theirs because I had some things to do on the way home.

[Assistant] Al Bean really slept the whole way back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Different. Totally different than going out, you’re right. Three days of not much activity coming back, except for the barbican maneuver. And there’s certain navigational things to perform. But it’s not much going on. And—

[Assistant] Is it a letdown?

[User] Somewhat maybe. You still have a reentry to go through and everything. But it’s a lack of activity. I had a sense of, “Well, gee, it’s kind of boring.” Except, my job was better than theirs because I had some things to do on the way home.

[Assistant] Al Bean really slept the whole way back?

[User] I think he did. I never saw him on the way back. He was in his sleeping bag under the couch.

[Assistant] He was just tired.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somewhat maybe. You still have a reentry to go through and everything. But it’s a lack of activity. I had a sense of, “Well, gee, it’s kind of boring.” Except, my job was better than theirs because I had some things to do on the way home.

[Assistant] Al Bean really slept the whole way back?

[User] I think he did. I never saw him on the way back. He was in his sleeping bag under the couch.

[Assistant] He was just tired.

[User] Must’ve been. Must’ve been.

[Assistant] The—what’s reentry like? I mean, we don’t hear much about that. The focus is always on the glory of going to the Moon—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he did. I never saw him on the way back. He was in his sleeping bag under the couch.

[Assistant] He was just tired.

[User] Must’ve been. Must’ve been.

[Assistant] The—what’s reentry like? I mean, we don’t hear much about that. The focus is always on the glory of going to the Moon—

[User] Oh yeah. We had an event that—on the way back in, just before reentry, when we had the Sun go behind the Earth and it gave us a very awesome view of what we call a solar eclipse by the Earth. And somebody said, “Well, isn’t night that all the time?” And I said, “Well, yeah, it is.” But this was a spectacular sight when the Sun went behind the Earth and it—well, in reverse of a solar orbit by the Moon. But there was this flash of light and the atmosphere was totally illuminated for a crescent portion of the Earth, which we were able to obtain several photographs that. We actually ran out of the good Hasselblad film, so we used every remaining piece of film that we could find to capture that event. And we knew this was going to happen, so we anticipated that.

[Assistant] What’s it like to look back at the Earth from so far away? What do—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. It may be for some people. But I think, by and large, I look at it this way. I came back with the same stuff I left with.

[Assistant] Reentry. The process of going as—becoming this fireball, to crash through the Earth’s atmosphere, and then say, “And then we’ll just hit the ocean.” What is that like? I mean, do you sense that you’re a fireball? Do—

[User] Oh yeah. Very much so. There’re various phases of flight that are dynamic, and there’s a lot of it, even in Earth orbit, that’s not dynamic. But the launches, the burns, the engine burns, changes in orbit, those are moments of dynamic activity that takes place. Certainly the reentry from lunar distances, at those velocities, is an extremely dynamic time. It’s over in a very short period of time, some, what? eight, eight and a half minutes to reenter. But the interesting thing, when you start, you want to make sure you’re at the right angle. And you’re navigating all the way back to make sure that you intersect this horizon at a depressed angle of six and a half degrees. The consequences of being more than a half degree off in either direction are not very wholesome. Talk about structural failures and skipping back out. So, those decisions are made and you’re very confident that the corrections have been made and—

[Assistant] And are you making those? Or is Pete Conrad—

[User] The ground is actually doing the navigating and giving you attitude or velocity changes to perform midcourse corrections.

[Assistant] And you’re performing them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as we were concerned, it was just a normal recovery from normal distances.

[Assistant] Mission—you felt Mission Control reacted the same way they had when Neil and—

[User] I didn’t know how they reacted.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was told, you know, maybe later.

[Assistant] Can you hear them at all when you’re—or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was told, you know, maybe later.

[Assistant] Can you hear them at all when you’re—or—

[User] I—no, I—they’re pretty quiet at that time because you’re talking to the helicopters, and—

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] —the recovery forces that are around the vehicle. I’m sure when they saw the parachutes deploy properly, they were probably very relieved. I hope they were!

[Assistant] You said that nobody remembers who’s second. But—and we do tend to remember, you know, the tickertape parades that greeted Neil and Mike and Buzz. But what was the reception when you were finally finished all your reports and got out of quarantine? What was the reception?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I—no, I—they’re pretty quiet at that time because you’re talking to the helicopters, and—

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] —the recovery forces that are around the vehicle. I’m sure when they saw the parachutes deploy properly, they were probably very relieved. I hope they were!

[Assistant] You said that nobody remembers who’s second. But—and we do tend to remember, you know, the tickertape parades that greeted Neil and Mike and Buzz. But what was the reception when you were finally finished all your reports and got out of quarantine? What was the reception?

[User] It was—hell, I don’t know how to express it. They—we were here at the [Manned Spacecraft] Center [Houston, Texas]. It was, you know, they gathered around when we got out and were glad to see us out. And they had a little homecoming going on. But we were sent by President Nixon on a around-the-world tour that lasted about 42 days with our wives and people from the State Department and from NASA. We visited something like 20 countries, starting with South America, went to Europe, Africa, Asia.\n\n It was very—that was a tough job, doing all that sort of thing, because you were representing your country in that regard, meeting heads of States in all these places, dealing with heads of States and the Ambassador staff. It was an interesting time, which I’d never had the opportunity obviously to do that before.

[Assistant] Well, I get that sense the—that, you know, 30 years later people may not remember who was second as much. But at the time, there was still a real sense of excitement surrounding Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. At that time, it—certainly the next flight, Apollo 13, had a little bit of excitement to it and then it probably started to fall off a little bit. You know, Americans are an interesting group of people. Once they’ve accomplished something, they tend to press on and go and do something else. James Michener addresses this very, very well in his book Space when he talks about the challenges that we have experienced during a Depression, during World War 2, the atomic bomb, the Cold War, that once we accomplish certain things, we tend to put it behind us and just go ahead and look into the future, see what else is out there.

[Assistant] Well, you’ve accomplished this. But you still had this other goal of, as you say, going the last 60 miles. So, I would imagine fairly soon you’re assigned as the backup crew to Apollo 15? And you start that training process?

[User] As soon as we got back from that world tour.

[Assistant] Okay. So, you’re in training. And Jack Schmitt is going to be your—

[User] Lunar module pilot.

[Assistant] —lunar module pilot. And I’ve read that in the training with him, that at one point, and you—I want you to tell this story, and you’ve got that little grin on your face. But that a simulation guy decides he’s going to, like, make your equipment fail so that Jack will have to fly and land on the Moon. And that—what did—tell the story as you remember it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As soon as we got back from that world tour.

[Assistant] Okay. So, you’re in training. And Jack Schmitt is going to be your—

[User] Lunar module pilot.

[Assistant] —lunar module pilot. And I’ve read that in the training with him, that at one point, and you—I want you to tell this story, and you’ve got that little grin on your face. But that a simulation guy decides he’s going to, like, make your equipment fail so that Jack will have to fly and land on the Moon. And that—what did—tell the story as you remember it.

[User] Did Jack land?

[Assistant] You tell the story!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lunar module pilot.

[Assistant] —lunar module pilot. And I’ve read that in the training with him, that at one point, and you—I want you to tell this story, and you’ve got that little grin on your face. But that a simulation guy decides he’s going to, like, make your equipment fail so that Jack will have to fly and land on the Moon. And that—what did—tell the story as you remember it.

[User] Did Jack land?

[Assistant] You tell the story!

[User] No, I didn’t—I wasn’t going to let them mess me up like that. So, I just traded places with Jack and landed from his side.

[Assistant] You just pushed him out of the way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did Jack land?

[Assistant] You tell the story!

[User] No, I didn’t—I wasn’t going to let them mess me up like that. So, I just traded places with Jack and landed from his side.

[Assistant] You just pushed him out of the way?

[User] Oh, we just kind of said, “Jack, I want to trade places with you.” So, we just did that and then I flipped the bird at the simulation people as I left the building.

[Assistant] You were angry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t—I wasn’t going to let them mess me up like that. So, I just traded places with Jack and landed from his side.

[Assistant] You just pushed him out of the way?

[User] Oh, we just kind of said, “Jack, I want to trade places with you.” So, we just did that and then I flipped the bird at the simulation people as I left the building.

[Assistant] You were angry.

[User] No, I wasn’t angry.

[Assistant] Someone else tells the story that you got—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we just kind of said, “Jack, I want to trade places with you.” So, we just did that and then I flipped the bird at the simulation people as I left the building.

[Assistant] You were angry.

[User] No, I wasn’t angry.

[Assistant] Someone else tells the story that you got—

[User] I don’t get angry. I get even!

[Assistant] How’d you get even? You landed it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn’t angry.

[Assistant] Someone else tells the story that you got—

[User] I don’t get angry. I get even!

[Assistant] How’d you get even? You landed it.

[User] Well—No, that’s kind of a—that’s what—I think Jack put the Sim people up to it, because it wasn’t a Sim back with Houston. It was just done locally at the Cape. And I think Jack Schmitt went to those guys and tried to set me up.

[Assistant] He never confirmed that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t get angry. I get even!

[Assistant] How’d you get even? You landed it.

[User] Well—No, that’s kind of a—that’s what—I think Jack put the Sim people up to it, because it wasn’t a Sim back with Houston. It was just done locally at the Cape. And I think Jack Schmitt went to those guys and tried to set me up.

[Assistant] He never confirmed that?

[User] But we—you know, they in the duplication of controls, with the exception of rate of descent switch, is almost either side can utilize the navigational equipment and perform those things.

[Assistant] Now, in the summer of 1970, you’re in training still as a backup to Apollo 15, correct? And you get the word that Apollo 18’s been canceled. And that’s what you’re banking on as being the your chance to be prime.