[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On both sides. And so, yeah, hard. But it was also, I'll admit, definitely a sense of relief when I got on that plane. And it was just kind of like, wow, OK. It's just such a powerful experience.

[Assistant] Did they have a nickname for you?

[User] Well, just my name. So Paul in Fijian is Vaula or Paula. So being a biblical name, it's pretty common there too. But it, of course, it sounds like Paula, which takes some getting used to, and the Fijian women, you know, would often singsong-y voice if they were calling out to me as I'm walking down the road. They'd say, Paulaaaaa. And so that still rings in my ear.

[Assistant] I'm getting tingles just hearing that, because that flashed back.

[User] In my mind, yeah. Yeah, such truly friendly people. And I would say it's, you know, my experience was, of course, once they get to know you and you get to know them, it becomes more sort of the more universal stand out. Some people don't like you, some people do, and you build some connections.

[Assistant] Nice. So you got on the plane. Where did you fly to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just my name. So Paul in Fijian is Vaula or Paula. So being a biblical name, it's pretty common there too. But it, of course, it sounds like Paula, which takes some getting used to, and the Fijian women, you know, would often singsong-y voice if they were calling out to me as I'm walking down the road. They'd say, Paulaaaaa. And so that still rings in my ear.

[Assistant] I'm getting tingles just hearing that, because that flashed back.

[User] In my mind, yeah. Yeah, such truly friendly people. And I would say it's, you know, my experience was, of course, once they get to know you and you get to know them, it becomes more sort of the more universal stand out. Some people don't like you, some people do, and you build some connections.

[Assistant] Nice. So you got on the plane. Where did you fly to?

[User] So I flew. Let's see, where did I end up flying into? Back into, I believe I went flew into Seattle because, while my home of record was still in Montana, my friend who was borrowing my car lived not too far out of Seattle.

[Assistant] He gave you the car back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my mind, yeah. Yeah, such truly friendly people. And I would say it's, you know, my experience was, of course, once they get to know you and you get to know them, it becomes more sort of the more universal stand out. Some people don't like you, some people do, and you build some connections.

[Assistant] Nice. So you got on the plane. Where did you fly to?

[User] So I flew. Let's see, where did I end up flying into? Back into, I believe I went flew into Seattle because, while my home of record was still in Montana, my friend who was borrowing my car lived not too far out of Seattle.

[Assistant] He gave you the car back?

[User] He did. He did. It was mostly in one piece. He did a pretty good job taking care of it.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds very Fijian too, what's yours is yours and what's yours is mine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I flew. Let's see, where did I end up flying into? Back into, I believe I went flew into Seattle because, while my home of record was still in Montana, my friend who was borrowing my car lived not too far out of Seattle.

[Assistant] He gave you the car back?

[User] He did. He did. It was mostly in one piece. He did a pretty good job taking care of it.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds very Fijian too, what's yours is yours and what's yours is mine.

[User] That's exactly right. Ooh, I like your car means I want that car. Yeah.

[Assistant] Or can I use it? Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did. He did. It was mostly in one piece. He did a pretty good job taking care of it.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds very Fijian too, what's yours is yours and what's yours is mine.

[User] That's exactly right. Ooh, I like your car means I want that car. Yeah.

[Assistant] Or can I use it? Yeah.

[User] And so, and it was nice. So I actually stayed with him and his folks for about three days. And I was really glad for that because it was kind of a good transition zone. I really appreciate that they opened up their house for me, just because it's, one, I mean, there's just so much jet lag that you can't quite grasp it.

[Assistant] Yeah, Fiji is on the international dateline, so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's exactly right. Ooh, I like your car means I want that car. Yeah.

[Assistant] Or can I use it? Yeah.

[User] And so, and it was nice. So I actually stayed with him and his folks for about three days. And I was really glad for that because it was kind of a good transition zone. I really appreciate that they opened up their house for me, just because it's, one, I mean, there's just so much jet lag that you can't quite grasp it.

[Assistant] Yeah, Fiji is on the international dateline, so.

[User] Exactly. So there's changes of days involved.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right. You lose a day going back. Or you gained one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, and it was nice. So I actually stayed with him and his folks for about three days. And I was really glad for that because it was kind of a good transition zone. I really appreciate that they opened up their house for me, just because it's, one, I mean, there's just so much jet lag that you can't quite grasp it.

[Assistant] Yeah, Fiji is on the international dateline, so.

[User] Exactly. So there's changes of days involved.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right. You lose a day going back. Or you gained one.

[User] It was kind of as if you flew forever and it only took an hour of clock time.

[Assistant] You got back the time you lost when going to Fiji.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. So there's changes of days involved.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right. You lose a day going back. Or you gained one.

[User] It was kind of as if you flew forever and it only took an hour of clock time.

[Assistant] You got back the time you lost when going to Fiji.

[User] Exactly, exactly. And then I made my way back to my hometown of Helena, Montana.

[Assistant] OK, so I want to stay with those first three days. Any culture shock?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would, I would say there was definitely a little bit. Yeah.

[Assistant] Such as?

[User] Just the pace of traffic. And a little bit of, say, the availability of everything.

[Assistant] Like groceries?

[User] Groceries, yeah. I mean, I could go into Sigatoka on a weekly basis and there were supermarkets there. So. So I would say not, not immediately, not too huge. And we just didn't do much in those first three days. And then also, you know, going back to Montana, it's pretty low-key too, small, fairly small town. But it, I would say the culture shock just. Perhaps the shock is when you're realizing all of the things that you didn't think about before, and what it means to be an American and what we value about ourselves and having such a contrasting cultural context to be able to compare with. Of that really communal setting to the much more nuclear family and individual base, so I think that's it. I think it was sort of a protracted culture shock. But I had some built-in time. I think I got home in August and I didn't start with graduate school again. So Peace Corps was embedded in my graduate school.

[Assistant] At least it wasn't snowing when you got home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just the pace of traffic. And a little bit of, say, the availability of everything.

[Assistant] Like groceries?

[User] Groceries, yeah. I mean, I could go into Sigatoka on a weekly basis and there were supermarkets there. So. So I would say not, not immediately, not too huge. And we just didn't do much in those first three days. And then also, you know, going back to Montana, it's pretty low-key too, small, fairly small town. But it, I would say the culture shock just. Perhaps the shock is when you're realizing all of the things that you didn't think about before, and what it means to be an American and what we value about ourselves and having such a contrasting cultural context to be able to compare with. Of that really communal setting to the much more nuclear family and individual base, so I think that's it. I think it was sort of a protracted culture shock. But I had some built-in time. I think I got home in August and I didn't start with graduate school again. So Peace Corps was embedded in my graduate school.

[Assistant] At least it wasn't snowing when you got home.

[User] And it wasn't snowing. It was warm weather. Yeah. So there was quite a bit of time to transition. I didn't have to jump back into hustle bustle or big city life or, so I think that subdued it a little bit.

[Assistant] And what did you do when you got home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it wasn't snowing. It was warm weather. Yeah. So there was quite a bit of time to transition. I didn't have to jump back into hustle bustle or big city life or, so I think that subdued it a little bit.

[Assistant] And what did you do when you got home?

[User] So I knew I was going to go back to graduate school.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I had one more semester left and I needed to write up my professional paper, which I officially did my research in Fiji. For a long time, I was figuring out, OK, what's it going to be? What's it going to be? And a non-governmental organization did a large project all along that district, and in fact, about five NGOs had done work there in the previous five to 10 years.

[Assistant] What sort of work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I knew I was going to go back to graduate school.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I had one more semester left and I needed to write up my professional paper, which I officially did my research in Fiji. For a long time, I was figuring out, OK, what's it going to be? What's it going to be? And a non-governmental organization did a large project all along that district, and in fact, about five NGOs had done work there in the previous five to 10 years.

[Assistant] What sort of work?

[User] Environmental. Environmental based work. So waste management, coral gardens. So we're right on the coast with a beautiful reef, as you imagine. But a bit of a degraded reef just because there were villages and resorts all along, all along that coast. So trying to revitalize the reef and the fisheries, and some were governance type issues about how to manage, kind of co-manage those resources. And so one needed to have an independent study done to, I think, apply for future funding about their five year project. And what went well, what didn't? Why was that? So I did 20, 25 interviews with Fijians who were involved in the project.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And that resulted in your paper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I had one more semester left and I needed to write up my professional paper, which I officially did my research in Fiji. For a long time, I was figuring out, OK, what's it going to be? What's it going to be? And a non-governmental organization did a large project all along that district, and in fact, about five NGOs had done work there in the previous five to 10 years.

[Assistant] What sort of work?

[User] Environmental. Environmental based work. So waste management, coral gardens. So we're right on the coast with a beautiful reef, as you imagine. But a bit of a degraded reef just because there were villages and resorts all along, all along that coast. So trying to revitalize the reef and the fisheries, and some were governance type issues about how to manage, kind of co-manage those resources. And so one needed to have an independent study done to, I think, apply for future funding about their five year project. And what went well, what didn't? Why was that? So I did 20, 25 interviews with Fijians who were involved in the project.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And that resulted in your paper?

[User] And so then I after that, I did that. I wrote up the report for the NGO. That was probably some of my most professional based work that I did there.

[Assistant] Dealing with other scientists.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Environmental. Environmental based work. So waste management, coral gardens. So we're right on the coast with a beautiful reef, as you imagine. But a bit of a degraded reef just because there were villages and resorts all along, all along that coast. So trying to revitalize the reef and the fisheries, and some were governance type issues about how to manage, kind of co-manage those resources. And so one needed to have an independent study done to, I think, apply for future funding about their five year project. And what went well, what didn't? Why was that? So I did 20, 25 interviews with Fijians who were involved in the project.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And that resulted in your paper?

[User] And so then I after that, I did that. I wrote up the report for the NGO. That was probably some of my most professional based work that I did there.

[Assistant] Dealing with other scientists.

[User] Exactly. And so I still along the way. And then after that, I was figuring, well, what do I, what am I going to do my research on? Should I do eco-tourism or what? And then after a while, time keeps passing and I'm like, you know, I think I've done my research.

[Assistant] Sounds like you lived it, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so then I after that, I did that. I wrote up the report for the NGO. That was probably some of my most professional based work that I did there.

[Assistant] Dealing with other scientists.

[User] Exactly. And so I still along the way. And then after that, I was figuring, well, what do I, what am I going to do my research on? Should I do eco-tourism or what? And then after a while, time keeps passing and I'm like, you know, I think I've done my research.

[Assistant] Sounds like you lived it, yeah.

[User] And so I looked back, going back to those, right, I mean, observation, the experience, and then going back to those 20, 25 interviews. I realized, well, that's a good amount of information.

[Assistant] That's a lot of data, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And so I still along the way. And then after that, I was figuring, well, what do I, what am I going to do my research on? Should I do eco-tourism or what? And then after a while, time keeps passing and I'm like, you know, I think I've done my research.

[Assistant] Sounds like you lived it, yeah.

[User] And so I looked back, going back to those, right, I mean, observation, the experience, and then going back to those 20, 25 interviews. I realized, well, that's a good amount of information.

[Assistant] That's a lot of data, yeah.

[User] And continuing to then expand on what were the challenges that these NGOs, which were, you know, mostly Fijians speaking with Fijians. So what were the challenges? Why did some things not work? Why did most things not work?

[Assistant] Did you come to any conclusions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And continuing to then expand on what were the challenges that these NGOs, which were, you know, mostly Fijians speaking with Fijians. So what were the challenges? Why did some things not work? Why did most things not work?

[Assistant] Did you come to any conclusions?

[User] Well, in a professional paper, of course, and you've got to finish with more research is needed. But yeah, I did have about 10.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And one that that comes to mind, and I think it still applies, is the unreasonable pace of change that's expected in philanthropic giving.

[Assistant] Tell me more about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in a professional paper, of course, and you've got to finish with more research is needed. But yeah, I did have about 10.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And one that that comes to mind, and I think it still applies, is the unreasonable pace of change that's expected in philanthropic giving.

[Assistant] Tell me more about that.

[User] So the expectation is in two to three years, you're going to have a successful project, right? And in a lot of these projects had governance components to them. So behavioral change, structural change tied to the role of women or the role of youth.

[Assistant] Yeah, cultural change in a chief environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And one that that comes to mind, and I think it still applies, is the unreasonable pace of change that's expected in philanthropic giving.

[Assistant] Tell me more about that.

[User] So the expectation is in two to three years, you're going to have a successful project, right? And in a lot of these projects had governance components to them. So behavioral change, structural change tied to the role of women or the role of youth.

[Assistant] Yeah, cultural change in a chief environment.

[User] Exactly, exactly. And to think that that's going to happen, if some of the solutions. Like bringing back, for instance, fish wardens, which is a traditional role in a Fijian village setting. So bringing back traditional fish wardens to monitor the lagoon, the lagoon area, I think it's a pretty, I think it's a pretty cool idea, but it's a, they're in the cash economy now.

[Assistant] Yeah, you've got to play the game.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the expectation is in two to three years, you're going to have a successful project, right? And in a lot of these projects had governance components to them. So behavioral change, structural change tied to the role of women or the role of youth.

[Assistant] Yeah, cultural change in a chief environment.

[User] Exactly, exactly. And to think that that's going to happen, if some of the solutions. Like bringing back, for instance, fish wardens, which is a traditional role in a Fijian village setting. So bringing back traditional fish wardens to monitor the lagoon, the lagoon area, I think it's a pretty, I think it's a pretty cool idea, but it's a, they're in the cash economy now.

[Assistant] Yeah, you've got to play the game.

[User] Right. So seeing that as a voluntary position. Well, those people who would be fish wardens, really, there's probably some pressure on them to go make money. So that was just a challenge. And just so, I would think it, you know, it probably takes 10 years if you're trying to build leadership and technical capacity at the local level. It's just almost impossible to do in two or three years.

[Assistant] You know, it sounds a lot like what you're doing right now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, exactly. And to think that that's going to happen, if some of the solutions. Like bringing back, for instance, fish wardens, which is a traditional role in a Fijian village setting. So bringing back traditional fish wardens to monitor the lagoon, the lagoon area, I think it's a pretty, I think it's a pretty cool idea, but it's a, they're in the cash economy now.

[Assistant] Yeah, you've got to play the game.

[User] Right. So seeing that as a voluntary position. Well, those people who would be fish wardens, really, there's probably some pressure on them to go make money. So that was just a challenge. And just so, I would think it, you know, it probably takes 10 years if you're trying to build leadership and technical capacity at the local level. It's just almost impossible to do in two or three years.

[Assistant] You know, it sounds a lot like what you're doing right now.

[User] It is. It very much, um.

[Assistant] Tell me more about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Alaska. So I'm the program manager for the Alaska Region Program. And Alaska region is just that, it's the state of Alaska. And so our role is to help community led outdoor recreation and conservation projects.

[Assistant] Community led.

[User] Community led.

[Assistant] Non-governmental.

[User] Right. Right. They can be governed, they can be governmentally led. But it's the key thing is, it's not the National Park Service. It's not, we're not the leaders of it. So it's very much like Peace Corps in the aspect that we're coming in, that kind of coincidentally for two years often, and working with a community group to plan, design, and construct new trails. And we haven't done too much of it, but do like watershed management plan. It's really up to the community, so they apply for our assistance. Instead of getting money, they get our time. So it's a grant.

[Assistant] That's kind of like Fiji or Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Community led.

[Assistant] Non-governmental.

[User] Right. Right. They can be governed, they can be governmentally led. But it's the key thing is, it's not the National Park Service. It's not, we're not the leaders of it. So it's very much like Peace Corps in the aspect that we're coming in, that kind of coincidentally for two years often, and working with a community group to plan, design, and construct new trails. And we haven't done too much of it, but do like watershed management plan. It's really up to the community, so they apply for our assistance. Instead of getting money, they get our time. So it's a grant.

[Assistant] That's kind of like Fiji or Peace Corps.

[User] It is very much so, just like Peace Corps where an organization needs to request hosting a Peace Corps volunteer. Same with the RTCA program. We get applications and then we go work with that project champion out in the community, figure out what she or he wants to do. We try to. And I think I'd be such a better Peace Corps volunteer now having this experience.

[Assistant] Oh, I have to agree with that. But, you know, it is what it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is very much so, just like Peace Corps where an organization needs to request hosting a Peace Corps volunteer. Same with the RTCA program. We get applications and then we go work with that project champion out in the community, figure out what she or he wants to do. We try to. And I think I'd be such a better Peace Corps volunteer now having this experience.

[Assistant] Oh, I have to agree with that. But, you know, it is what it is.

[User] It's humbling. But I think having that Peace Corps volunteer experience has really helped shape my perspective on how to go in and work with these communities. So we're working with small rural communities in Alaska, um, different tribal communities, one out in St. Paul Island, which is one of the Pribilof Islands in the middle of the Bering Sea.

[Assistant] Oh boy.

[User] So a number of, right, the kind of flexibility and adaptability and learning. Learning that local context that we all have to do as Peace Corps volunteers, are some of the key competencies to serving in this kind of community planning role.

[Assistant] Well, I met some of the native Alaskans, but at least everybody speaks English, so you've got a little bit more common ground.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's humbling. But I think having that Peace Corps volunteer experience has really helped shape my perspective on how to go in and work with these communities. So we're working with small rural communities in Alaska, um, different tribal communities, one out in St. Paul Island, which is one of the Pribilof Islands in the middle of the Bering Sea.

[Assistant] Oh boy.

[User] So a number of, right, the kind of flexibility and adaptability and learning. Learning that local context that we all have to do as Peace Corps volunteers, are some of the key competencies to serving in this kind of community planning role.

[Assistant] Well, I met some of the native Alaskans, but at least everybody speaks English, so you've got a little bit more common ground.

[User] Sure, sure. Although in Fiji, that was mostly the case, although they didn't operate between each other in English for the most part.

[Assistant] Because English was the national language, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So a number of, right, the kind of flexibility and adaptability and learning. Learning that local context that we all have to do as Peace Corps volunteers, are some of the key competencies to serving in this kind of community planning role.

[Assistant] Well, I met some of the native Alaskans, but at least everybody speaks English, so you've got a little bit more common ground.

[User] Sure, sure. Although in Fiji, that was mostly the case, although they didn't operate between each other in English for the most part.

[Assistant] Because English was the national language, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the villages maintain their own dialects.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, sure. Although in Fiji, that was mostly the case, although they didn't operate between each other in English for the most part.

[Assistant] Because English was the national language, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the villages maintain their own dialects.

[User] Exactly. So yeah, it was. So yes, it's different there. But in some Alaska Native communities, you know, it's helped me be able to open my eyes and see, OK, what are the structural differences if I'm working in downtown Anchorage versus if I'm working in Togiak in the Bristol Bay area?

[Assistant] And what would be some of those differences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the villages maintain their own dialects.

[User] Exactly. So yeah, it was. So yes, it's different there. But in some Alaska Native communities, you know, it's helped me be able to open my eyes and see, OK, what are the structural differences if I'm working in downtown Anchorage versus if I'm working in Togiak in the Bristol Bay area?

[Assistant] And what would be some of those differences?

[User] Communication and the pace, the kind of expectations.

[Assistant] Transportation's got to be an issue here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. So yeah, it was. So yes, it's different there. But in some Alaska Native communities, you know, it's helped me be able to open my eyes and see, OK, what are the structural differences if I'm working in downtown Anchorage versus if I'm working in Togiak in the Bristol Bay area?

[Assistant] And what would be some of those differences?

[User] Communication and the pace, the kind of expectations.

[Assistant] Transportation's got to be an issue here.

[User] It's expensive and, I mean, some of our projects are because transportation is a challenge, so most are using four wheelers.

[Assistant] No dog sleds?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Communication and the pace, the kind of expectations.

[Assistant] Transportation's got to be an issue here.

[User] It's expensive and, I mean, some of our projects are because transportation is a challenge, so most are using four wheelers.

[Assistant] No dog sleds?

[User] Not as much, no. Snow machines have pretty much taken their place.

[Assistant] So they've gone modern too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's expensive and, I mean, some of our projects are because transportation is a challenge, so most are using four wheelers.

[Assistant] No dog sleds?

[User] Not as much, no. Snow machines have pretty much taken their place.

[Assistant] So they've gone modern too.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And they have TV?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as much, no. Snow machines have pretty much taken their place.

[Assistant] So they've gone modern too.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And they have TV?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I mean, certainly cell phones. I'm behind the times with some of the younger professionals I'm working with out there. They laugh at my iPhone 5.

[Assistant] At least not a flip phone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And they have TV?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I mean, certainly cell phones. I'm behind the times with some of the younger professionals I'm working with out there. They laugh at my iPhone 5.

[Assistant] At least not a flip phone.

[User] So, but yeah, there are so many parallels between I feel like trying to be effective as a Peace Corps volunteer and trying to be effective in providing this technical assistance to community groups that are, you know, they have.

[Assistant] The government officials. Yeah, interesting. So why don't we refresh on the three goals of the Peace Corps? First was to learn about another country while being there, which you pretty well explained that. The second goal is coming back here and sharing what you know about Fiji with other people. How have you done that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I mean, certainly cell phones. I'm behind the times with some of the younger professionals I'm working with out there. They laugh at my iPhone 5.

[Assistant] At least not a flip phone.

[User] So, but yeah, there are so many parallels between I feel like trying to be effective as a Peace Corps volunteer and trying to be effective in providing this technical assistance to community groups that are, you know, they have.

[Assistant] The government officials. Yeah, interesting. So why don't we refresh on the three goals of the Peace Corps? First was to learn about another country while being there, which you pretty well explained that. The second goal is coming back here and sharing what you know about Fiji with other people. How have you done that?

[User] Yeah, good. So part of that was kind of embedded thanks to it being part of my graduate program. So I wrote a, waxed philosophic in my professional paper for a hundred plus pages. But what was, I think, pretty telling for me. So I'll step back. So I also presented to a couple of other college classes and I was a teaching assistant, so I got to. [coughs] Excuse me, sip of water here.

[Assistant] Yeah, I was wondering too, whether you did any recruiting for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, good. So part of that was kind of embedded thanks to it being part of my graduate program. So I wrote a, waxed philosophic in my professional paper for a hundred plus pages. But what was, I think, pretty telling for me. So I'll step back. So I also presented to a couple of other college classes and I was a teaching assistant, so I got to. [coughs] Excuse me, sip of water here.

[Assistant] Yeah, I was wondering too, whether you did any recruiting for the Peace Corps?

[User] Informally, simply. Never in a paid position or on the university campus.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] No. But I definitely have talked with several people. There's one friend of ours who is in Ecuador now. You know, she certainly came to that decision on her own, but certainly talked with her quite a bit about my experience and what was challenging and what was amazingly rewarding.

[Assistant] So on a daily basis, how often might the thought of Fiji even come up? Or daily or how often does it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Informally, simply. Never in a paid position or on the university campus.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] No. But I definitely have talked with several people. There's one friend of ours who is in Ecuador now. You know, she certainly came to that decision on her own, but certainly talked with her quite a bit about my experience and what was challenging and what was amazingly rewarding.

[Assistant] So on a daily basis, how often might the thought of Fiji even come up? Or daily or how often does it?

[User] How often? I would say it's never too far away. So it's, let's see. I got back in 2007. So it's 12 years, almost exactly 12 years, and it does not seem like that long ago. It was, I think, just such a powerful experience. So it's.

[Assistant] Like a snapshot in time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But I definitely have talked with several people. There's one friend of ours who is in Ecuador now. You know, she certainly came to that decision on her own, but certainly talked with her quite a bit about my experience and what was challenging and what was amazingly rewarding.

[Assistant] So on a daily basis, how often might the thought of Fiji even come up? Or daily or how often does it?

[User] How often? I would say it's never too far away. So it's, let's see. I got back in 2007. So it's 12 years, almost exactly 12 years, and it does not seem like that long ago. It was, I think, just such a powerful experience. So it's.

[Assistant] Like a snapshot in time.

[User] It is. So I think it, it really changed who I am, I guess.

[Assistant] In what way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How often? I would say it's never too far away. So it's, let's see. I got back in 2007. So it's 12 years, almost exactly 12 years, and it does not seem like that long ago. It was, I think, just such a powerful experience. So it's.

[Assistant] Like a snapshot in time.

[User] It is. So I think it, it really changed who I am, I guess.

[Assistant] In what way?

[User] I think around the cultural, about taking it easy, not taking things too seriously, questioning the focus on achievement and productivity that, you know, I was certainly very driven and got good grades and, you know, successfully found jobs and all. And just to be able to step back from that and, right, not judge myself too much or others. And in, you know, I mean, especially in the current times, there's so much talk about different cultures and clashes and tensions. Experiencing the Peace Corps for me, right? Because it was hard to be, I mean, I guess it's the first time where I was mainly prejudged based on the color of my skin.

[Assistant] Oh. And you were in the minority.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. So I think it, it really changed who I am, I guess.

[Assistant] In what way?

[User] I think around the cultural, about taking it easy, not taking things too seriously, questioning the focus on achievement and productivity that, you know, I was certainly very driven and got good grades and, you know, successfully found jobs and all. And just to be able to step back from that and, right, not judge myself too much or others. And in, you know, I mean, especially in the current times, there's so much talk about different cultures and clashes and tensions. Experiencing the Peace Corps for me, right? Because it was hard to be, I mean, I guess it's the first time where I was mainly prejudged based on the color of my skin.

[Assistant] Oh. And you were in the minority.

[User] And I was very much in the minority. And so, you know, after a hundred years of colonization and the post-colonial construct still being strong of the white guy coming in and having all the ideas and having all the money and being in a tourist area. So for those who didn't know I was there, you know, would assume I was a tourist, which makes sense.

[Assistant] Or a local European.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was very much in the minority. And so, you know, after a hundred years of colonization and the post-colonial construct still being strong of the white guy coming in and having all the ideas and having all the money and being in a tourist area. So for those who didn't know I was there, you know, would assume I was a tourist, which makes sense.

[Assistant] Or a local European.

[User] Right, right. An I wasn't there for too long in the scheme of things, right? Two years, it feels long to us, but it's a blink of an eye for the folks who are going to live there their whole lives. So, you know, I just think that's something that everyone needs to experience. I really think it would be valuable, because you come to an understanding of, OK, well, here's why they feel that way. Here's some ways that they're right, and there's a lot of ways where they're not right because they don't. They don't know who I am.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And just that colonial construct. So the expectation that, well, this guy's got lots of money and, it was tough to work through. I struggled with that because I was, you know, perhaps because I studied the culture a lot being in graduate school before going.

[Assistant] Well, since you've been back, have you gotten any letters from people there or requests for aid or assistance or money or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. An I wasn't there for too long in the scheme of things, right? Two years, it feels long to us, but it's a blink of an eye for the folks who are going to live there their whole lives. So, you know, I just think that's something that everyone needs to experience. I really think it would be valuable, because you come to an understanding of, OK, well, here's why they feel that way. Here's some ways that they're right, and there's a lot of ways where they're not right because they don't. They don't know who I am.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And just that colonial construct. So the expectation that, well, this guy's got lots of money and, it was tough to work through. I struggled with that because I was, you know, perhaps because I studied the culture a lot being in graduate school before going.

[Assistant] Well, since you've been back, have you gotten any letters from people there or requests for aid or assistance or money or?

[User] I got a, I got a love letter. And if you can remember, you don't know anyone's name, like in general. There's a few people, but you're not often, people aren't calling you. They're not saying, hey Jack, hey Paul. And so like, I don't know who the woman is, but I did get a love letter. And then on a much sadder note, I got two messages, some emails, that two of the guys I work closest with died in their mid-forties.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. These were Fijians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And just that colonial construct. So the expectation that, well, this guy's got lots of money and, it was tough to work through. I struggled with that because I was, you know, perhaps because I studied the culture a lot being in graduate school before going.

[Assistant] Well, since you've been back, have you gotten any letters from people there or requests for aid or assistance or money or?

[User] I got a, I got a love letter. And if you can remember, you don't know anyone's name, like in general. There's a few people, but you're not often, people aren't calling you. They're not saying, hey Jack, hey Paul. And so like, I don't know who the woman is, but I did get a love letter. And then on a much sadder note, I got two messages, some emails, that two of the guys I work closest with died in their mid-forties.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. These were Fijians?

[User] Fijians, yeah. So the teacher that I was really close with and my Fijian side counterpart, both died. So that's been, that's, yeah, that's been tough.

[Assistant] Where did you meet your wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Meet my wife? Well, that was here in Alaska.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So moved up to Alaska in 2008 as a presidential management fellow. So a federal government program as a way to recruit people finishing up a graduate degree of some sort. And I worked for the Forest Service from 2008 to 2015. And in 2010, through mutual friends, we were introduced.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] And yeah, late 2010, then got married in 2012.

[Assistant] And you have children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yeah, late 2010, then got married in 2012.

[Assistant] And you have children?

[User] We have two children, age six and three.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So yeah, quite a, in a sense a quick change for me. I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, that's culture shock.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have two children, age six and three.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So yeah, quite a, in a sense a quick change for me. I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, that's culture shock.

[User] That is. That is culture shock.

[Assistant] What have you taught the kids about Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So yeah, quite a, in a sense a quick change for me. I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, that's culture shock.

[User] That is. That is culture shock.

[Assistant] What have you taught the kids about Fiji?

[User] Oh, you know.

[Assistant] Do they sit on the floor and eat out of bowls?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is. That is culture shock.

[Assistant] What have you taught the kids about Fiji?

[User] Oh, you know.

[Assistant] Do they sit on the floor and eat out of bowls?

[User] Well, they'll definitely have no problem eating with their hands, sitting cross-legged with me on the ground.

[Assistant] Would you let them drink kava?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they'll definitely have no problem eating with their hands, sitting cross-legged with me on the ground.

[Assistant] Would you let them drink kava?

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Yeah?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Even at this age?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Yeah?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Even at this age?

[User] Sure. Yeah, sure. They're not going to drink too much of it because we'll say it's an acquired taste, I guess. And I think maybe you don't even acquire it. You just, you put up with it.

[Assistant] Yeah, it tastes pretty bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Even at this age?

[User] Sure. Yeah, sure. They're not going to drink too much of it because we'll say it's an acquired taste, I guess. And I think maybe you don't even acquire it. You just, you put up with it.

[Assistant] Yeah, it tastes pretty bad.

[User] And you drink a lot of it. But I taught him a little [speaks Fijian].

[Assistant] OK. That's got to be cute.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yeah, sure. They're not going to drink too much of it because we'll say it's an acquired taste, I guess. And I think maybe you don't even acquire it. You just, you put up with it.

[Assistant] Yeah, it tastes pretty bad.

[User] And you drink a lot of it. But I taught him a little [speaks Fijian].

[Assistant] OK. That's got to be cute.

[User] It is, and you can see they're sponges, their pronunciation, right? I'd love to go immerse them in it, and they'd have a great time running around with the.

[Assistant] Think you'll ever take them to Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you drink a lot of it. But I taught him a little [speaks Fijian].

[Assistant] OK. That's got to be cute.

[User] It is, and you can see they're sponges, their pronunciation, right? I'd love to go immerse them in it, and they'd have a great time running around with the.

[Assistant] Think you'll ever take them to Fiji?

[User] I do. I do.

[Assistant] Wouldn't that be great. Don't wait too long.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is, and you can see they're sponges, their pronunciation, right? I'd love to go immerse them in it, and they'd have a great time running around with the.

[Assistant] Think you'll ever take them to Fiji?

[User] I do. I do.

[Assistant] Wouldn't that be great. Don't wait too long.

[User] Well, it's true. Just, uh.

[Assistant] Before they turn into teenagers. I'm sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do. I do.

[Assistant] Wouldn't that be great. Don't wait too long.

[User] Well, it's true. Just, uh.

[Assistant] Before they turn into teenagers. I'm sorry.

[User] If, especially if we go, my wife actually got a master's degree in New Zealand, so she's got friends in New Zealand and Australia, so we could make a big South Pacific expedition. And I would definitely love to spend some time, but I do want them to be a little older to really have a sense of the experience.

[Assistant] To appreciate what they're experiencing. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's true. Just, uh.

[Assistant] Before they turn into teenagers. I'm sorry.

[User] If, especially if we go, my wife actually got a master's degree in New Zealand, so she's got friends in New Zealand and Australia, so we could make a big South Pacific expedition. And I would definitely love to spend some time, but I do want them to be a little older to really have a sense of the experience.

[Assistant] To appreciate what they're experiencing. Yeah.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Teenagers might just tune it out and sit there and watch TV the whole time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If, especially if we go, my wife actually got a master's degree in New Zealand, so she's got friends in New Zealand and Australia, so we could make a big South Pacific expedition. And I would definitely love to spend some time, but I do want them to be a little older to really have a sense of the experience.

[Assistant] To appreciate what they're experiencing. Yeah.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Teenagers might just tune it out and sit there and watch TV the whole time.

[User] Exactly. Or be like, this is lame, and then only appreciate it. You know, it's going to depend on the person. My older son is extremely social. I've met a lot of interesting and new people at the airport.

[Assistant] And so they've met Fijians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Teenagers might just tune it out and sit there and watch TV the whole time.

[User] Exactly. Or be like, this is lame, and then only appreciate it. You know, it's going to depend on the person. My older son is extremely social. I've met a lot of interesting and new people at the airport.

[Assistant] And so they've met Fijians?

[User] No, no. Just anyone. No, I don't think.

[Assistant] Is there a large Fijian community here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Or be like, this is lame, and then only appreciate it. You know, it's going to depend on the person. My older son is extremely social. I've met a lot of interesting and new people at the airport.

[Assistant] And so they've met Fijians?

[User] No, no. Just anyone. No, I don't think.

[Assistant] Is there a large Fijian community here?

[User] Not to my knowledge. There's a large Samoan population here and how that got started, I'm not sure, but that especially in the Anchorage area, that Samoan population is pretty substantial.

[Assistant] Yeah, I recall that a lot of the Fijians immigrated to Vancouver rather than Seattle, apparently it was easier to get into Canada.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Just anyone. No, I don't think.

[Assistant] Is there a large Fijian community here?

[User] Not to my knowledge. There's a large Samoan population here and how that got started, I'm not sure, but that especially in the Anchorage area, that Samoan population is pretty substantial.

[Assistant] Yeah, I recall that a lot of the Fijians immigrated to Vancouver rather than Seattle, apparently it was easier to get into Canada.

[User] Vancouver? OK. When I was in Fiji, Sacramento seemed to be the most common landing spot.

[Assistant] I believe that too. I'm from Sacramento and, yeah, we've hosted a lot of immigrants.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not to my knowledge. There's a large Samoan population here and how that got started, I'm not sure, but that especially in the Anchorage area, that Samoan population is pretty substantial.

[Assistant] Yeah, I recall that a lot of the Fijians immigrated to Vancouver rather than Seattle, apparently it was easier to get into Canada.

[User] Vancouver? OK. When I was in Fiji, Sacramento seemed to be the most common landing spot.

[Assistant] I believe that too. I'm from Sacramento and, yeah, we've hosted a lot of immigrants.

[User] That's most people would say, oh yes, I have a cousin in Sacramento. Yes, Sacramento, California. And so, yeah, have not. Have not met a Fijian, well, since being in Alaska.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Might be a little cold for their blood up here. Too cold for me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Vancouver? OK. When I was in Fiji, Sacramento seemed to be the most common landing spot.

[Assistant] I believe that too. I'm from Sacramento and, yeah, we've hosted a lot of immigrants.

[User] That's most people would say, oh yes, I have a cousin in Sacramento. Yes, Sacramento, California. And so, yeah, have not. Have not met a Fijian, well, since being in Alaska.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Might be a little cold for their blood up here. Too cold for me.

[User] Well, it could, but Samoa is a pretty similar climate and, you know, they managed. I think it's, I think just with that, I feel like with the communal nature of the culture and similar with someone in Tonga. Probably if a few get settled, it's more likely that more family members and broader kinship groups will come in. So, yeah, Anchorage is, doesn't seem to have been a destination yet for.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, now that you mentioned it, I've met all kinds of Fijians, Fijians and Fiji Indians. A lot of them drive bus at the airport and so on. And their English is very good and they're very, very friendly people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's most people would say, oh yes, I have a cousin in Sacramento. Yes, Sacramento, California. And so, yeah, have not. Have not met a Fijian, well, since being in Alaska.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Might be a little cold for their blood up here. Too cold for me.

[User] Well, it could, but Samoa is a pretty similar climate and, you know, they managed. I think it's, I think just with that, I feel like with the communal nature of the culture and similar with someone in Tonga. Probably if a few get settled, it's more likely that more family members and broader kinship groups will come in. So, yeah, Anchorage is, doesn't seem to have been a destination yet for.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, now that you mentioned it, I've met all kinds of Fijians, Fijians and Fiji Indians. A lot of them drive bus at the airport and so on. And their English is very good and they're very, very friendly people.

[User] They sure are.

[Assistant] That's why they call them the friendly islands.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it could, but Samoa is a pretty similar climate and, you know, they managed. I think it's, I think just with that, I feel like with the communal nature of the culture and similar with someone in Tonga. Probably if a few get settled, it's more likely that more family members and broader kinship groups will come in. So, yeah, Anchorage is, doesn't seem to have been a destination yet for.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, now that you mentioned it, I've met all kinds of Fijians, Fijians and Fiji Indians. A lot of them drive bus at the airport and so on. And their English is very good and they're very, very friendly people.

[User] They sure are.

[Assistant] That's why they call them the friendly islands.

[User] Although I think my, because they are so friendly, friendly up front, that I felt like it was a true sign of respect and to where my language skills had gotten when they said, hmm, you're Fijian skills aren't very good.

[Assistant] Really, they'd actually say that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Although I think my, because they are so friendly, friendly up front, that I felt like it was a true sign of respect and to where my language skills had gotten when they said, hmm, you're Fijian skills aren't very good.

[Assistant] Really, they'd actually say that?

[User] They said it, and I felt like, wow, that was the best compliment you could give me!

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Instead of [speaks Fijian], right? Oh, you're so, you're so smart. You're so smart in the Fijian language because you said bula. To where they said like, hmm, that sounds, what?

[Assistant] I remember them saying one time, oh, you speak the good pidgin Fijian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Instead of [speaks Fijian], right? Oh, you're so, you're so smart. You're so smart in the Fijian language because you said bula. To where they said like, hmm, that sounds, what?

[Assistant] I remember them saying one time, oh, you speak the good pidgin Fijian?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Very broken.

[User] And that's where you knew. That's where you knew that you had made it to level two, at least.

[Assistant] Yeah. But that's what endeared them to us or vice versa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Very broken.

[User] And that's where you knew. That's where you knew that you had made it to level two, at least.

[Assistant] Yeah. But that's what endeared them to us or vice versa.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, what an experience you had many years after I was there. So we talked about how you got into the Peace Corps, what you did there, and what you're doing now. Anything else you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's where you knew. That's where you knew that you had made it to level two, at least.

[Assistant] Yeah. But that's what endeared them to us or vice versa.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, what an experience you had many years after I was there. So we talked about how you got into the Peace Corps, what you did there, and what you're doing now. Anything else you'd like to add?

[User] Oh, no, it's so fun. I'm glad I had a little advance notice that I would be talking about it just because it's, as I say, it's like the language is rusty. But I do think about it a lot, and I stay in touch with a core group of volunteers on a very regular basis.

[Assistant] How many volunteers are around here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, it's so fun. I'm glad I had a little advance notice that I would be talking about it just because it's, as I say, it's like the language is rusty. But I do think about it a lot, and I stay in touch with a core group of volunteers on a very regular basis.

[Assistant] How many volunteers are around here?

[User] Oh, not in this area, just via Facebook, via text messaging. So some of my cohort. There is an RPCV group here in Anchorage.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] That seems to be pretty active.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, we're going to have a Peace Corps Fiji reunion in Sacramento one day, and you're more than welcome to join us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, not in this area, just via Facebook, via text messaging. So some of my cohort. There is an RPCV group here in Anchorage.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] That seems to be pretty active.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, we're going to have a Peace Corps Fiji reunion in Sacramento one day, and you're more than welcome to join us.

[User] I would love to.

[Assistant] Well, Paul, it's been very nice talking with you. Thank you, and good luck to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] To begin with, in our previous oral history you did tell us a little bit about your background in the military and how you got interested in aviation, and you indicated it was while you were with the Navy that you heard about the opportunity to get involved with NASA with the space program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had you had a lot of interest in the space program beforehand? What led you to want to follow that path?

[User] Well, no, I didn't really, because I felt since I hadn't been to test pilot school, I felt that I probably wasn't qualified. Then I think as I told you in our previous interview, that then I got a message from what was then called the Bureau of Personnel, with the Navy, that said I met the Navy's criteria and would I want to apply. So, no, the answer to your question is, no, I hadn't really thought about it, for that reason.

[Assistant] What did your family think about the idea of you becoming an astronaut or applying for the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had you had a lot of interest in the space program beforehand? What led you to want to follow that path?

[User] Well, no, I didn't really, because I felt since I hadn't been to test pilot school, I felt that I probably wasn't qualified. Then I think as I told you in our previous interview, that then I got a message from what was then called the Bureau of Personnel, with the Navy, that said I met the Navy's criteria and would I want to apply. So, no, the answer to your question is, no, I hadn't really thought about it, for that reason.

[Assistant] What did your family think about the idea of you becoming an astronaut or applying for the program?

[User] Well, my wife was supportive. My children were too small to have any comprehension of what it meant. Frankly, I didn't really have much awareness or comprehension of what it meant either.

[Assistant] Did you have any expectations going into, once you did apply and were accepted, any expectations of what the job would be like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, I didn't really, because I felt since I hadn't been to test pilot school, I felt that I probably wasn't qualified. Then I think as I told you in our previous interview, that then I got a message from what was then called the Bureau of Personnel, with the Navy, that said I met the Navy's criteria and would I want to apply. So, no, the answer to your question is, no, I hadn't really thought about it, for that reason.

[Assistant] What did your family think about the idea of you becoming an astronaut or applying for the program?

[User] Well, my wife was supportive. My children were too small to have any comprehension of what it meant. Frankly, I didn't really have much awareness or comprehension of what it meant either.

[Assistant] Did you have any expectations going into, once you did apply and were accepted, any expectations of what the job would be like?

[User] No, I really didn't.

[Assistant] Just kind of learned as it went along and fell into place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my wife was supportive. My children were too small to have any comprehension of what it meant. Frankly, I didn't really have much awareness or comprehension of what it meant either.

[Assistant] Did you have any expectations going into, once you did apply and were accepted, any expectations of what the job would be like?

[User] No, I really didn't.

[Assistant] Just kind of learned as it went along and fell into place.

[User] Right. It sounded like an interesting, exciting thing to be involved in. Of course, I was very thrilled and honored, frankly, to be selected finally.

[Assistant] That is quite an honor. Very few people get to have that opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I really didn't.

[Assistant] Just kind of learned as it went along and fell into place.

[User] Right. It sounded like an interesting, exciting thing to be involved in. Of course, I was very thrilled and honored, frankly, to be selected finally.

[Assistant] That is quite an honor. Very few people get to have that opportunity.

[User] Yes. Especially then.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You came in during the Apollo Program, as the missions were getting under way for Apollo and coming up to speed. You served—you went through the initial period of training, and actually, in our first interview you had talked about some of the aspects of the training that you went through, which included even geology training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. It sounded like an interesting, exciting thing to be involved in. Of course, I was very thrilled and honored, frankly, to be selected finally.

[Assistant] That is quite an honor. Very few people get to have that opportunity.

[User] Yes. Especially then.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You came in during the Apollo Program, as the missions were getting under way for Apollo and coming up to speed. You served—you went through the initial period of training, and actually, in our first interview you had talked about some of the aspects of the training that you went through, which included even geology training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think about all the different parts of—that were going into this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Especially then.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You came in during the Apollo Program, as the missions were getting under way for Apollo and coming up to speed. You served—you went through the initial period of training, and actually, in our first interview you had talked about some of the aspects of the training that you went through, which included even geology training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think about all the different parts of—that were going into this?

[User] Well, it was kind of surprising to me, as far as the breadth of the classroom work that we received, both in geology—of course, we had a lot of field work associated with our geology course, too. But as I mentioned before, orbital mechanics, for example, and spacecraft systems and basic systems such as Apollo software that was being developed at the time. So mainly the thing that was exciting was, we were getting ready to go fly to the Moon, we thought at the time, and that was the main incentive and the most—you know, the goal that we all had that was out there.

[Assistant] During Apollo, you were assigned to the support crew for Apollo 12.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think about all the different parts of—that were going into this?

[User] Well, it was kind of surprising to me, as far as the breadth of the classroom work that we received, both in geology—of course, we had a lot of field work associated with our geology course, too. But as I mentioned before, orbital mechanics, for example, and spacecraft systems and basic systems such as Apollo software that was being developed at the time. So mainly the thing that was exciting was, we were getting ready to go fly to the Moon, we thought at the time, and that was the main incentive and the most—you know, the goal that we all had that was out there.

[Assistant] During Apollo, you were assigned to the support crew for Apollo 12.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And this was your first assignment to a crew related other than the general training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was kind of surprising to me, as far as the breadth of the classroom work that we received, both in geology—of course, we had a lot of field work associated with our geology course, too. But as I mentioned before, orbital mechanics, for example, and spacecraft systems and basic systems such as Apollo software that was being developed at the time. So mainly the thing that was exciting was, we were getting ready to go fly to the Moon, we thought at the time, and that was the main incentive and the most—you know, the goal that we all had that was out there.

[Assistant] During Apollo, you were assigned to the support crew for Apollo 12.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And this was your first assignment to a crew related other than the general training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You described a little bit about the duties of the support crew, but what did you specifically do for part of Apollo 12? What were some of the aspects of your involvement with that crew and their training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were all in the office, everyone, if you weren't assigned to a crew. Everyone had a responsibility. For example, one time—and don't ask me how it fit in with my—I think I probably was working on ALSEP, which was the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package, I think, but Apollo 11, the basic scientific equipment that Apollo 11 placed on the Moon surface. We had various technical and operational responsibilities, and those changed, because that was considered by Deke [Donald K. Slayton], who was the head of the FOD [Flight Operations Division] at the time, FCOD [Flight Crew Operations Division], whatever it was called, it was considered part of the broadening of our background experience and understanding of what went on in the system.\n\n But when you're assigned to a support crew, that was your total function. You were working for the primary mission commander, and whatever he decided to have you do, you went and did it to the best of your abilities. Usually satisfied Deke, but not always.

[Assistant] Talking about the variety of missions and working on the different technical aspects, and you had mentioned earlier that the goal was getting to the Moon and everyone was working toward that, do you recall where you were and what you were thinking when Apollo 11 actually achieved the goal?

[User] When Neil [A. Armstrong] stepped out?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, I was in the viewing room at mission control. I remember that.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a moment for everyone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When Neil [A. Armstrong] stepped out?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, I was in the viewing room at mission control. I remember that.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a moment for everyone.

[User] It was, yes, especially because, as I'm sure you're aware, during the LM [Lunar Module] descent they had those alarms come up. It was Steve [Stephen G.] Bales, I think, that recognized what they were and continued the mission to land, because it was very, very close to landing when the mission was in jeopardy. And Pete [Charles Conrad, Jr.] often said Apollo 12, getting ready for 12 before 11 even launched, Pete figured that, in his estimation, he had as good a chance of being the first person on the Moon as Neil did, which came very near to being the case.

[Assistant] Yes. They were certainly doing something that had so many complexities to it and something that had never been done before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was in the viewing room at mission control. I remember that.

[Assistant] It must have been quite a moment for everyone.

[User] It was, yes, especially because, as I'm sure you're aware, during the LM [Lunar Module] descent they had those alarms come up. It was Steve [Stephen G.] Bales, I think, that recognized what they were and continued the mission to land, because it was very, very close to landing when the mission was in jeopardy. And Pete [Charles Conrad, Jr.] often said Apollo 12, getting ready for 12 before 11 even launched, Pete figured that, in his estimation, he had as good a chance of being the first person on the Moon as Neil did, which came very near to being the case.

[Assistant] Yes. They were certainly doing something that had so many complexities to it and something that had never been done before.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Always chances of something happening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Always chances of something happening.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] You know what John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] said. He was sitting on that thing that's cracking and hissing and making all these strange noises, built by the lowest bidder.

[Assistant] [Laughter] Yes, I'm sure that's a thought that has crossed many an astronaut's mind, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] You know what John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] said. He was sitting on that thing that's cracking and hissing and making all these strange noises, built by the lowest bidder.

[Assistant] [Laughter] Yes, I'm sure that's a thought that has crossed many an astronaut's mind, I'm sure.

[User] You get confidence in it during the testing. The testing is very thorough. The crew office, anyway, has input into the test procedures and what tests are run also. So it's a little overstatement, but it sounds good to the public.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, I'm sure even just embarking on such a new and different—I mean, it's not something that's routine, it's not something that's common, so even given all the testing and you could have very strong faith that everything's going well because you did have such good testing, that there's always that reminder that people don't do this all the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know what John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] said. He was sitting on that thing that's cracking and hissing and making all these strange noises, built by the lowest bidder.

[Assistant] [Laughter] Yes, I'm sure that's a thought that has crossed many an astronaut's mind, I'm sure.

[User] You get confidence in it during the testing. The testing is very thorough. The crew office, anyway, has input into the test procedures and what tests are run also. So it's a little overstatement, but it sounds good to the public.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, I'm sure even just embarking on such a new and different—I mean, it's not something that's routine, it's not something that's common, so even given all the testing and you could have very strong faith that everything's going well because you did have such good testing, that there's always that reminder that people don't do this all the time.

[User] Well, it's true. I don't remember if we talked about it before, but Apollo 12 was struck by lightning during ascent. That was a very hairy time. Fortunately, there were just enough of the basic systems, backup systems, in the spacecraft that kept it going until the crew could react and straighten things out again. You always try to be prepared to cope with something unexpected.

[Assistant] Talking about unexpected, the next mission was Apollo 13. You had, again, indicated in your earlier oral history that you worked a type of support for Apollo 13.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You get confidence in it during the testing. The testing is very thorough. The crew office, anyway, has input into the test procedures and what tests are run also. So it's a little overstatement, but it sounds good to the public.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, I'm sure even just embarking on such a new and different—I mean, it's not something that's routine, it's not something that's common, so even given all the testing and you could have very strong faith that everything's going well because you did have such good testing, that there's always that reminder that people don't do this all the time.

[User] Well, it's true. I don't remember if we talked about it before, but Apollo 12 was struck by lightning during ascent. That was a very hairy time. Fortunately, there were just enough of the basic systems, backup systems, in the spacecraft that kept it going until the crew could react and straighten things out again. You always try to be prepared to cope with something unexpected.

[Assistant] Talking about unexpected, the next mission was Apollo 13. You had, again, indicated in your earlier oral history that you worked a type of support for Apollo 13.

[User] It was very short-lived. The Astronaut Office had a function then called “Stoney.” That was a KSC acronym. I forget what it stood for, but Stoney was the person who sat on the console at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] in the launch support room and gave the final countdown to the crew. Basically that's all he did. Plus, I guess, just to keep little fingers busy, he also controlled the elevators in the launch, at the pad. Well, when the crew got off the top and then the guys put them in, closed them up, then they come in, then he positioned remotely some of the elevators for emergency egress. So that was a big job prior to launch. Then, as I say, give the crew the countdown.

[Assistant] That was a pretty important task.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's true. I don't remember if we talked about it before, but Apollo 12 was struck by lightning during ascent. That was a very hairy time. Fortunately, there were just enough of the basic systems, backup systems, in the spacecraft that kept it going until the crew could react and straighten things out again. You always try to be prepared to cope with something unexpected.

[Assistant] Talking about unexpected, the next mission was Apollo 13. You had, again, indicated in your earlier oral history that you worked a type of support for Apollo 13.

[User] It was very short-lived. The Astronaut Office had a function then called “Stoney.” That was a KSC acronym. I forget what it stood for, but Stoney was the person who sat on the console at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] in the launch support room and gave the final countdown to the crew. Basically that's all he did. Plus, I guess, just to keep little fingers busy, he also controlled the elevators in the launch, at the pad. Well, when the crew got off the top and then the guys put them in, closed them up, then they come in, then he positioned remotely some of the elevators for emergency egress. So that was a big job prior to launch. Then, as I say, give the crew the countdown.

[Assistant] That was a pretty important task.

[User] It was okay. It was better than not doing it, I guess.

[Assistant] So where were you, then, during Apollo 13 when the accident did happen and the crew had to then move into the lunar module?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was okay. It was better than not doing it, I guess.

[Assistant] So where were you, then, during Apollo 13 when the accident did happen and the crew had to then move into the lunar module?

[User] When we first understood what was going on, when Jack [John L. Swigert, Jr.] said, "Houston, we have a problem," I don't remember where I was. I know that we assigned a team, Deke [Slayton] assigned a team within the Astronaut Office and, of course, with the flight controllers, too, to figure out what was going on.\n\n My function, we directed, as I remember, all the resources of the Astronaut Office except for possibly the [Apollo] 14 or 15 crew toward working this problem, then trying to decide what to do. But to make things like that work, you need to have one person in charge, and I forget who that was, although Ken [Thomas K.] Mattingly [II] did the most work and, I think, had a lot of input into the idea, for example, of using the LM lithium hydroxide canisters in order to get some of the carbon dioxide out of the air. But the rest of us were primarily go-fers. We were just springloaded to go, either call a contractor or anyone that we could, any company or organization that might help. So it really was kind of a mishmash. We were all just running around trying to get things under control.

[Assistant] And everything did come under control eventually, and everyone came together very well to make it all—

[User] We got the crew back.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And that must have been—must have been quite a moment for everyone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we first understood what was going on, when Jack [John L. Swigert, Jr.] said, "Houston, we have a problem," I don't remember where I was. I know that we assigned a team, Deke [Slayton] assigned a team within the Astronaut Office and, of course, with the flight controllers, too, to figure out what was going on.\n\n My function, we directed, as I remember, all the resources of the Astronaut Office except for possibly the [Apollo] 14 or 15 crew toward working this problem, then trying to decide what to do. But to make things like that work, you need to have one person in charge, and I forget who that was, although Ken [Thomas K.] Mattingly [II] did the most work and, I think, had a lot of input into the idea, for example, of using the LM lithium hydroxide canisters in order to get some of the carbon dioxide out of the air. But the rest of us were primarily go-fers. We were just springloaded to go, either call a contractor or anyone that we could, any company or organization that might help. So it really was kind of a mishmash. We were all just running around trying to get things under control.

[Assistant] And everything did come under control eventually, and everyone came together very well to make it all—

[User] We got the crew back.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And that must have been—must have been quite a moment for everyone.

[User] Yes. Of course, the main thing was when they jettisoned the LM prior to reentry, and then the reentry started well. But everyone was still hanging on until they came out of blackout.

[Assistant] As the Apollo Program came to a close, originally there had been more missions planned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Of course, the main thing was when they jettisoned the LM prior to reentry, and then the reentry started well. But everyone was still hanging on until they came out of blackout.

[Assistant] As the Apollo Program came to a close, originally there had been more missions planned.

[User] Twenty.

[Assistant] Twenty.

[User] Through Apollo 20.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, canceled. What were—what was the general thoughts and the general feelings of NASA as that was coming to a close? Of course, Skylab was already being planned and under way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty.

[Assistant] Twenty.

[User] Through Apollo 20.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, canceled. What were—what was the general thoughts and the general feelings of NASA as that was coming to a close? Of course, Skylab was already being planned and under way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were there any final thoughts on the Apollo missions and that it had been too short or that it was enough or any general feeling like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Through Apollo 20.

[Assistant] Unfortunately, canceled. What were—what was the general thoughts and the general feelings of NASA as that was coming to a close? Of course, Skylab was already being planned and under way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were there any final thoughts on the Apollo missions and that it had been too short or that it was enough or any general feeling like that?

[User] Well, we had a parochial point of view. We'd have liked to have seen more missions to the Moon. And at the time, Skylab, as a title and a series of missions, had not been settled on. There was a concept called the Apollo Applications Program [AAP], which included continuing building Saturn Vs and sending both manned and unmanned missions to the Moon, not necessarily to land on the Moon. The whole thing was still conceptual. But there was a big thing to map the entire Moon by putting a mapper in polar orbit around the Moon, so to get the front side, the back side, the whole thing, in preparation for, at the time, as I remember, building a lunar base to support a manned exploration of Mars. That was basically open-ended.\n\n Of course, the political environment at the time, canceling the Apollo lunar landings 18, 19, and 20, and AAP, Apollo Applications Program then shrunk down, and finally was called Skylab. So that's what was left. I've been asked this before in an interview by one of NASA's historians. I should have reread that before I came out here, because I wouldn't want to lie or get mixed up or anything. [Butler laughs.] But, gee, I don't remember when the transition occurred in there, but it was very gradual.

[Assistant] That's all right. I'm sure we can refer back to that oral history if we need to.\n\n Moving into Skylab, you had mentioned in your first oral history about the wet versus dry workshop, and the discussions on that, and some of the tests that were done both at Huntsville and at Houston, using the water tanks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were there any final thoughts on the Apollo missions and that it had been too short or that it was enough or any general feeling like that?

[User] Well, we had a parochial point of view. We'd have liked to have seen more missions to the Moon. And at the time, Skylab, as a title and a series of missions, had not been settled on. There was a concept called the Apollo Applications Program [AAP], which included continuing building Saturn Vs and sending both manned and unmanned missions to the Moon, not necessarily to land on the Moon. The whole thing was still conceptual. But there was a big thing to map the entire Moon by putting a mapper in polar orbit around the Moon, so to get the front side, the back side, the whole thing, in preparation for, at the time, as I remember, building a lunar base to support a manned exploration of Mars. That was basically open-ended.\n\n Of course, the political environment at the time, canceling the Apollo lunar landings 18, 19, and 20, and AAP, Apollo Applications Program then shrunk down, and finally was called Skylab. So that's what was left. I've been asked this before in an interview by one of NASA's historians. I should have reread that before I came out here, because I wouldn't want to lie or get mixed up or anything. [Butler laughs.] But, gee, I don't remember when the transition occurred in there, but it was very gradual.

[Assistant] That's all right. I'm sure we can refer back to that oral history if we need to.\n\n Moving into Skylab, you had mentioned in your first oral history about the wet versus dry workshop, and the discussions on that, and some of the tests that were done both at Huntsville and at Houston, using the water tanks.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us more about what those tests entailed and what they were looking at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are you kidding? I'm sure it did. I mean, those guys in mission control are very busy. They come on for eight hours. They want to get something done while they're there, rather than just sit around. So, yes. But I overstated a little bit there. Yes, everyone had the accomplishment of the mission primarily, and if they could evaluate, which for some of the experiments you could, and also if the crew would call down and say, "This didn't seem to work right," or, "We think there's a better way even yet." I was primarily responsible for the EREP procedures development, and I found out a lot of things in orbit that I didn't like about that. So we could change some of them. After we bounced it off the ground and they looked at it and evaluated, either desktop or in a trainer, make changes or modifications, you'd either go to procedures, a time line, or perhaps to a setting on the equipment.

[Assistant] I think you mentioned in the earlier oral history that one of the reasons you found things different is just the difference in working in microgravity versus working on Earth.

[User] Yes, in many cases that was so.

[Assistant] That's the way you do things. In Dr. Kerwin's oral history, he mentioned that you were also responsible—you were the systems expert for the flight as well. Is that correct?

[User] In the workshop, yes.

[Assistant] What did those duties entail? I think you mentioned the docking adapter that you were involved with a little bit, the airlock. What other things fell into those areas of responsibilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in many cases that was so.

[Assistant] That's the way you do things. In Dr. Kerwin's oral history, he mentioned that you were also responsible—you were the systems expert for the flight as well. Is that correct?

[User] In the workshop, yes.

[Assistant] What did those duties entail? I think you mentioned the docking adapter that you were involved with a little bit, the airlock. What other things fell into those areas of responsibilities?

[User] Oh, gee whiz. I'd forgotten about the systems stuff, but, yes. And of course, we had the environmental control system, the electrical system, and not much hydraulics. But it was a relatively complicated control panel, because we wanted as much flexibility and adaptability as we could get into it. So I mentioned before Jack Lousma and I, and that was part, even though it controlled systems in a workshop, that was part of the airlock module, so we were involved in the layout, for example, of the control panel and which functions were capable of being crew-enabled or not, you know, crew-activated.

[Assistant] I imagine that some of those duties changed a bit after the launch and when you had to then reevaluate how the whole activation was going to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gee, I don't know. I think you're probably asking the wrong person. I think the main thing was just development of—we shipped some TV photos back, of mainly the flyaround, so the ground had to then dress them up a little bit so they could really understand what was going on. I think basically it just took that long for an appreciation of what the situation was and for, again, the backup crew to get in the water tank and develop procedure, given the tools we had on board, and how do you do an EVA on the side. First off, the question is, can we do an EVA? Okay. The answer is yes. Well, should we do an EVA? And you go through that whole logic process.\n\n Then they also shipped up the procedures, as they understand them, a couple three days before they were planning on doing the EVA, and we kind of walked through them in the workshop. We didn't actually suit up, but as far as getting equipment out and talking about taking it up into the airlock, making sure we could get those tree trimmer's tools back outside through the airlock hatch this time and, I think, the whole process until it was agreed by both mission control and Pete that it was time to go do it.

[Assistant] Okay. So this second EVA, then, hadn't been tested on the ground before you guys came up.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Well, that certainly would be a good reason to take time and make sure it's all going to be safe and have a good chance of succeeding.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Absolutely. You had mentioned on your EVA, this was a chance that hadn't been planned for in the initial schedule for the mission. You weren't scheduled to do an EVA. Did you have a chance to enjoy the opportunity, even though you were trying to save the station at the time? But—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, you know, there wasn't any, except for the medical stuff, the bicycle ergometer, there wasn't anything else I remember, and the ATM, those are the only things that were done every day, as I remember.

[Assistant] Sounds like you had enough variety to keep things always interesting.

[User] Well, yes, but it's no different from here on Earth. I mean, you don't do the same thing in your house every day. You do different things.

[Assistant] And you mentioned in the first oral history that you had plenty of time in your free time to look out the window and enjoy the view.

[User] After the EVA, primarily, because we got more accustomed—you know, there was three or four days and we were getting ready to do the EVA, and that was on day fourteen. Now, we'd spent two or three days getting into the workshop and letting things cool down, assessing the effects of the temperature. We had some hand cream on board, for example. At 140 degrees, most of those tubes of hand cream had basically exploded. Of course, they were in a container, fortunately, but they had popped open because of the temperature.\n\n What was your last question? I was visualizing.

[Assistant] You were building up to working—being able to look out the window.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Are there lessons learned from—well, you sort of mentioned one here with the time, how you ended up having extra time at the end and how the second crew asked for extra duties and then the third crew kind of got overwhelmed. That's obviously one lesson learned. But other things as well that might be applied from Skylab to the International Space Station?

[User] There were things that should have been applied, but haven't been necessarily, just basically certainly the hiatus between ATSP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] and the beginning, the actual launch of the Shuttle mission and everybody's focused on the first four flights. What did they call those? They had a special name for the first four flights.

[Assistant] On the Shuttle?

[User] Well, I mean for that phase of it. We tended to forget. As we went into [Space Station]\n\n Freedom\n\n , post flight, during the flight people were taking a lot of notes, recording a lot of information and data, both anecdotal and hard data, and coming up with, I think it was about a twenty-volume—by volume, I mean document that thick, three-eighths of an inch or so, and it was entitled\n\n Skylab Lessons Learned\n\n . I think there were twenty of those publications.\n\n But you could go through them now and find out a lot of things that we're probably going to find on\n\n Freedom\n\n that weren't applied, and that's just because you get a new crew in. By "crew," I mean everybody who's working on Shuttle and\n\n Freedom\n\n . Of course,\n\n Freedom\n\n has been through so many different groups of people and managers and configurations and what have you, it's easy to lose sight of those old lessons. Frankly, everybody thinks they have a better way of doing things anyway.

[Assistant] Would you have imagined that it would be so much time between Apollo and Skylab and then on to Shuttle and Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There really wasn't that much time between Apollo 17 and Skylab; 17 launched in December of '71.

[Assistant] '72.

[User] Was it '72? And then we launched the workshop in May of '73. So, see, from Apollo to Skylab to ASTP wasn't that much. But then after ASTP, when nobody really knew what we were going to do next, AAP was fading at the time, Skylab was kind of hanging on like Space Station has for the last lots of years, and that's when I remember Cocoa Beach [Florida] really was almost a ghost town. I mean, there were businesses, banks, and restaurants and condos that were boarded up, basically, in the last seventies until we really started getting some hardware, some equipment to test at the Cape.\n\n So that was a long time. A lot of people left the Astronaut Office, a lot of people left JSC, time to move on because they were just the type of people who wanted to be associated with a program or an undertaking that they thought was challenging. So a lot of people left. Lots of people left the Astronaut Office.

[Assistant] Do you have any final thoughts on Skylab or anything you'd like to say that we didn't cover last—

[User] It was worth doing. It's unfortunate that they couldn't find a way, a practical way, to keep it in orbit for longer, or that we used a fully functional—didn't use—and I understand the budget considerations, but from a personal point of view, it'd have been nicer to have the backup workshop, which was ready for flight in all respects, in orbit rather than at the Smithsonian. It gives people an appreciation and understanding when they go through that display at the Smithsonian of what that aspect of space flight—now with\n\n Freedom\n\n in orbit, it gives them perhaps a little better appreciation of what's going on. So, yes, those two things primarily.

[Assistant] If we could pause here for a minute and take a quick break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was worth doing. It's unfortunate that they couldn't find a way, a practical way, to keep it in orbit for longer, or that we used a fully functional—didn't use—and I understand the budget considerations, but from a personal point of view, it'd have been nicer to have the backup workshop, which was ready for flight in all respects, in orbit rather than at the Smithsonian. It gives people an appreciation and understanding when they go through that display at the Smithsonian of what that aspect of space flight—now with\n\n Freedom\n\n in orbit, it gives them perhaps a little better appreciation of what's going on. So, yes, those two things primarily.

[Assistant] If we could pause here for a minute and take a quick break.

[User] Suits me. [Tape change.]

[Assistant] We were talking—we came to the end of Skylab and, as we talked about, there was quite a break between Skylab and Shuttle—actually, between ASTP and Shuttle and a lot of changeout of people leaving NASA for various reasons, and a lot of changes just going on within NASA trying to get geared up for Space Shuttle, which was such a different program, such a different vehicle. What were some of your thoughts on the Shuttle itself?

[User] Are we ever going to get STS-1 off the ground, basically, because we went through the same thing in Skylab. One time for Skylab we scheduled a launch and we were losing time. I mean, because a month would go by and we were more than a month behind schedule. Of course, it goes up in peaks and it drops off. But it seemed to take half of forever to get STS-1 ready to go. I don't remember now, you can't pin that on any one thing. The new programs, new development, a lot of things had to come together, the SRB [solid rocket boosters], the external tank, the main engines, the Shuttle, the whole thing.

[Assistant] During this time you were working in the Astronaut Office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Suits me. [Tape change.]

[Assistant] We were talking—we came to the end of Skylab and, as we talked about, there was quite a break between Skylab and Shuttle—actually, between ASTP and Shuttle and a lot of changeout of people leaving NASA for various reasons, and a lot of changes just going on within NASA trying to get geared up for Space Shuttle, which was such a different program, such a different vehicle. What were some of your thoughts on the Shuttle itself?

[User] Are we ever going to get STS-1 off the ground, basically, because we went through the same thing in Skylab. One time for Skylab we scheduled a launch and we were losing time. I mean, because a month would go by and we were more than a month behind schedule. Of course, it goes up in peaks and it drops off. But it seemed to take half of forever to get STS-1 ready to go. I don't remember now, you can't pin that on any one thing. The new programs, new development, a lot of things had to come together, the SRB [solid rocket boosters], the external tank, the main engines, the Shuttle, the whole thing.

[Assistant] During this time you were working in the Astronaut Office.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned in your earlier oral history that part of the jobs there were training for the astronauts, part of your duties. What did that training entail, since this was such a different vehicle and since there were things still being developed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was.

[Assistant] Were you involved with the ALT test, the [Shuttle] Approach and Landing [Tests]?

[User] No, no, I had nothing to do with ALT. I had forgotten all about ALT, as a matter of fact. Deke [Slayton] was in charge of that. Of course, we had the—I guess there were just two crews that flew the ALT missions. It was [Joe H.] Engle and [Richard H.] Truly and [Fred W.] Haise and [Gordon] Fullerton, as I remember.

[Assistant] I believe that's correct.

[User] That's right. That took up a lot of that time prior to the launch of STS-1.

[Assistant] It must have been good to see STS-1 finally come to fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, I had nothing to do with ALT. I had forgotten all about ALT, as a matter of fact. Deke [Slayton] was in charge of that. Of course, we had the—I guess there were just two crews that flew the ALT missions. It was [Joe H.] Engle and [Richard H.] Truly and [Fred W.] Haise and [Gordon] Fullerton, as I remember.

[Assistant] I believe that's correct.

[User] That's right. That took up a lot of that time prior to the launch of STS-1.

[Assistant] It must have been good to see STS-1 finally come to fly.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] And go pretty well.