[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, space debris doesn’t block vision, but it’s a problem in satellite safety, and it will be a problem in other ways eventually. But right now it’s primarily a matter of damage.

[Assistant] I guess the other area that we were just curious about your involvement was the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Did that cross your realm of possibility?

[User] It did, but not in a very major way. When NASA first became involved with it, I was handling that part of the program, but I never got very deeply involved in it, and it gradually went over to the planetary program. I have to admit that I had and still have mixed feelings about that. I think that the SETI Program is highly unlikely to succeed. I think there is life elsewhere in the universe. I can’t prove it, but I’d be very surprised if there isn’t, but that there would be life sufficiently like us in both capability and evolutionary status to communicate with us and yet still be near enough to communicate, I think personally is highly unlikely. On the other hand, there are people whom I respect very highly, scientists I respect very highly, who do think it’s worthwhile. So, as I say, I have mixed feelings.

[Assistant] Yes, but you’ve had such a very full career and still haven’t finished. You have so many more things that you’re doing now and sharing information. Are there other things that you can think of that you would like to add or maybe something that we didn’t cover or maybe something we just talked about briefly that you would like to add some other details on? I’m just kind of going through my notes and trying to make sure that—

[User] Well, I cant’ think of anything at the moment, but—

[Assistant] I have one thing that—when you were talking about your trip in 1956 to Russia, we talked about it, but you—some of the details. If you could share with us what it was like going to—was that your first trip also outside the country or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I surely did. So those are my impressions of my first trip to Russia.

[Assistant] Of the observatories that you had the opportunity to visit, is there one that seems to stand out in your memory as, well, in fact, well, more than one of the others? And that might even have been influenced by the time that you’ve seen them. You’ve seen them so many times now that—

[User] Yes, as I said, I was—I don’t know. I don’t think of any that I feel—I have to admit the 200-inch telescope is pretty impressive, its dome, and the other things. Well, you know, the prime focus cage and so forth. I guess that I would say that was the most impressive that I’ve seen, although, well, I have not seen the really large telescopes in Hawaii, or even the one in Texas, which is a—well, yes, I have seen the one in Texas. No, no, I haven’t. I saw the 107-inch, but I haven’t seen the new one that they have which is a different type of telescope but very large. So I haven’t seen the really large telescopes that are coming up today. So I guess I would say that in my—things I’ve seen that I would count the 200-inch as the most impressive, although I have to admit that it’s sort of hard to pick one as standing out.

[Assistant] At least it’s nice that they’re changing so you have places to go now and more things to see and more adventures to have and things to learn.

[User] Yes, oh, yes. Yes. I’ve been to Mauna Kea [Hawaii] a couple of times but not since the really large [Keck] telescopes are up.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll be looking forward to hearing about your latest adventures as they become quickly history. You’ll be able to plan more and to do more things. We certainly have learned so much, and we certainly enjoyed speaking with you today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as I said, I was—I don’t know. I don’t think of any that I feel—I have to admit the 200-inch telescope is pretty impressive, its dome, and the other things. Well, you know, the prime focus cage and so forth. I guess that I would say that was the most impressive that I’ve seen, although, well, I have not seen the really large telescopes in Hawaii, or even the one in Texas, which is a—well, yes, I have seen the one in Texas. No, no, I haven’t. I saw the 107-inch, but I haven’t seen the new one that they have which is a different type of telescope but very large. So I haven’t seen the really large telescopes that are coming up today. So I guess I would say that in my—things I’ve seen that I would count the 200-inch as the most impressive, although I have to admit that it’s sort of hard to pick one as standing out.

[Assistant] At least it’s nice that they’re changing so you have places to go now and more things to see and more adventures to have and things to learn.

[User] Yes, oh, yes. Yes. I’ve been to Mauna Kea [Hawaii] a couple of times but not since the really large [Keck] telescopes are up.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll be looking forward to hearing about your latest adventures as they become quickly history. You’ll be able to plan more and to do more things. We certainly have learned so much, and we certainly enjoyed speaking with you today.

[User] I’m glad you have. I sort of felt that I was rambling, but I’ve been interviewed so many times.

[Assistant] Not at all. No, it’s been wonderful with the details and we certainly hope again as we send this to you for your review that if you find more things that you would like include, please do and just thanks again for saving the day for us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my case it didn't really have too much of a hindrance. Generally we always had interpreters and translators. The biggest problem was physically to take all these documents that we were working out the outlines and processes and physically turning them around into the Russian language. But generally speaking, it wasn't a real problem to deal with the Russians at a personal level. Partly because I had had a couple of years of Russian language training, albeit a long time ago in college and in high school, so I knew a little bit of the Russian. I could understand much more than I could speak, and a fair number of the Russians could speak English fairly well. Between that and having the interpreters and translators, it generally did not pose too much of a problem.

[Assistant] I guess a common language was the success of the Priroda.

[User] That's right. I mean, much of the work that we were doing was either scientific or technical in nature, and once you understood what the goals of the activity were, it was very easy to communicate. Once you understood and outlined the details that needed to be provided, it was very easy because people were driving towards the same set of information to be exchanged.

[Assistant] Several years ago you jumped at the chance to do this. Now that you've been through it, would you be jumping at the chance again?

[User] Yes. I really thoroughly enjoyed all of the activity, and given the opportunity, I'd certainly do it over again. I'd kind of like to get more involved in some of what we're developing now for the International Space Station, especially with the Russians or some of the international partners. My biggest concern is that so many of the people, not only myself, but so many of us who went through this, some of them are going on to work on the station, but in many cases they are not, and that's probably my biggest concern, is that we make sure that we take what we have learned through this program and transmit it to the International Station Program.

[Assistant] It was a real-time lesson in real-time activity. Everything was moving at the same time and everybody was learning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
This is a hobby.

This is one of the ways in which I got involved in the space program back when I was seven or eight years old, and I've continued that, although I don't build them too frequently anymore. But the Mir and the Shuttle were something that a lot of people in the program wanted these, and they were not generally accessible. So I went out and took bids on them and built a whole bunch for folks. So they're now disseminated all across the working force of the program.

[Assistant] And did you design it, or was there a package out there?

[User] There's a couple of different packages, but I had to get it all together, and a lot of it did not have the kinds of detail to show the real equipment. So I had to do a lot of detail work and adding things, and also for different kinds of open houses and visitations, people really didn't have much of an idea of what the insides of the modules looked like. We had technical drawings and so on, so the cutaway of the module really shows a little bit better what the inside of the vehicle is like and what kinds of things we were working with. But that was also something that was generally not available and was very useful as an educational tool.

[Assistant] It helps. And how many of the Shuttle-Mirs are -

[User] I think I built about a dozen and a half of the Shuttles with the Mirs, and everybody from the program manager on down to different folks in the operations and the astronauts, those are pretty widely distributed right now.

[Assistant] Speaking of the astronauts, I notice you have an astronaut pin, not the pin but the pin that the astronauts give, a Snoopy. Tell us how you got that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's a couple of different packages, but I had to get it all together, and a lot of it did not have the kinds of detail to show the real equipment. So I had to do a lot of detail work and adding things, and also for different kinds of open houses and visitations, people really didn't have much of an idea of what the insides of the modules looked like. We had technical drawings and so on, so the cutaway of the module really shows a little bit better what the inside of the vehicle is like and what kinds of things we were working with. But that was also something that was generally not available and was very useful as an educational tool.

[Assistant] It helps. And how many of the Shuttle-Mirs are -

[User] I think I built about a dozen and a half of the Shuttles with the Mirs, and everybody from the program manager on down to different folks in the operations and the astronauts, those are pretty widely distributed right now.

[Assistant] Speaking of the astronauts, I notice you have an astronaut pin, not the pin but the pin that the astronauts give, a Snoopy. Tell us how you got that.

[User] Shannon Lucid gave me the silver Snoopy pin. That's probably the most significant recognition that I received from the program. That's something that you hear about, and especially on the NASA side not too many people received them, but I thought that was pretty nice, and I guess that was for my work with the Priroda. As I say, the experience of actually doing the job was really the best thing to come out of it, but the recognition on the side, like the silver Snoopy and some of the awards, were also nice. I didn't turn anything down.

[Assistant]
Thank you. I was going to ask Paul and Carol if they have any questions for you. Do you have anything you'd like to ask?

I want to move the camera so I have a better backdrop and have you explain from one end of the module to the other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I built about a dozen and a half of the Shuttles with the Mirs, and everybody from the program manager on down to different folks in the operations and the astronauts, those are pretty widely distributed right now.

[Assistant] Speaking of the astronauts, I notice you have an astronaut pin, not the pin but the pin that the astronauts give, a Snoopy. Tell us how you got that.

[User] Shannon Lucid gave me the silver Snoopy pin. That's probably the most significant recognition that I received from the program. That's something that you hear about, and especially on the NASA side not too many people received them, but I thought that was pretty nice, and I guess that was for my work with the Priroda. As I say, the experience of actually doing the job was really the best thing to come out of it, but the recognition on the side, like the silver Snoopy and some of the awards, were also nice. I didn't turn anything down.

[Assistant]
Thank you. I was going to ask Paul and Carol if they have any questions for you. Do you have anything you'd like to ask?

I want to move the camera so I have a better backdrop and have you explain from one end of the module to the other.

[User] Okay. All right.

[Assistant] There's twelve Shuttle-Mirs, but only one of the -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shannon Lucid gave me the silver Snoopy pin. That's probably the most significant recognition that I received from the program. That's something that you hear about, and especially on the NASA side not too many people received them, but I thought that was pretty nice, and I guess that was for my work with the Priroda. As I say, the experience of actually doing the job was really the best thing to come out of it, but the recognition on the side, like the silver Snoopy and some of the awards, were also nice. I didn't turn anything down.

[Assistant]
Thank you. I was going to ask Paul and Carol if they have any questions for you. Do you have anything you'd like to ask?

I want to move the camera so I have a better backdrop and have you explain from one end of the module to the other.

[User] Okay. All right.

[Assistant] There's twelve Shuttle-Mirs, but only one of the -

[User] This one here? Yes, just one of those. At one time I was going to do Spektr also, but I never quite got to finish that.

[Assistant] You must have had other things to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lee A. Gladwin, and began work on March 12, 1990, downtown branch [the National Archives Building in Washington, DC].

[Assistant] And you retired in January?

[User] January 31, 2009

[Assistant] Tell me a little bit about your educational background and how the degree(s) that you pursued prepared you for a job at the National Archives.

[User] I was a history major primarily, I thought I was going to go into teaching but then changed my mind. One of the things I always thought would be nice would be to work at the National Archives and possibly the Library of Congress. That goes back to my junior high school days when I was doing research on various topics. I was overwhelmed by the amount of things I could find either here or there. Anyway my major would be history with a minor in English for example. My major period’s concentrations were Colonial American period up through the reconstruction. The topical area was social, cultural, and election history, and I have done virtually nothing with any of them but one article in the Journal of Social History on tobacco and sex, which you’re not old enough to read yet.

[Assistant] You actually started as a professor; you started out teaching before you came to the National Archives right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] January 31, 2009

[Assistant] Tell me a little bit about your educational background and how the degree(s) that you pursued prepared you for a job at the National Archives.

[User] I was a history major primarily, I thought I was going to go into teaching but then changed my mind. One of the things I always thought would be nice would be to work at the National Archives and possibly the Library of Congress. That goes back to my junior high school days when I was doing research on various topics. I was overwhelmed by the amount of things I could find either here or there. Anyway my major would be history with a minor in English for example. My major period’s concentrations were Colonial American period up through the reconstruction. The topical area was social, cultural, and election history, and I have done virtually nothing with any of them but one article in the Journal of Social History on tobacco and sex, which you’re not old enough to read yet.

[Assistant] You actually started as a professor; you started out teaching before you came to the National Archives right?

[User] No, I started out as an assistant professor of history at what is now Shenandoah University in Winchester.

[Assistant] How did that prepare you for your career at the National Archives, or did it not prepare you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a history major primarily, I thought I was going to go into teaching but then changed my mind. One of the things I always thought would be nice would be to work at the National Archives and possibly the Library of Congress. That goes back to my junior high school days when I was doing research on various topics. I was overwhelmed by the amount of things I could find either here or there. Anyway my major would be history with a minor in English for example. My major period’s concentrations were Colonial American period up through the reconstruction. The topical area was social, cultural, and election history, and I have done virtually nothing with any of them but one article in the Journal of Social History on tobacco and sex, which you’re not old enough to read yet.

[Assistant] You actually started as a professor; you started out teaching before you came to the National Archives right?

[User] No, I started out as an assistant professor of history at what is now Shenandoah University in Winchester.

[Assistant] How did that prepare you for your career at the National Archives, or did it not prepare you?

[User] No, none of the things I did actually prepared me for work as an archivist specifically. What my association was always doing research and I did a great deal here beginning early-to-mid 1950’s and continuing up all the way to graduate school.

[Assistant] After leaving Shenandoah University, you went to work for University Research Corporation, SAIC, and On-Line Computers. What was that work like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t get everything out here. No, we were all just responsible for packing up pretty much our own things. We might have been asked to get some other things ready. I know everybody was living with boxes and packing them up and writing on the boxes their name and where they wanted these things to go when they got here. That was pretty exciting.

[Assistant] The Center was one of the first divisions to come out here, is that correct?

[User] Yes, we came in February now there were a few that come the previous fall. They were maybe administrative offices but we were one of the first of the divisions. I went back a few weeks or possibly a few months after we moved here I went back and visited old number 20 and just gagged. The dust was so thick. I always wondered why I was coughing and sneezing and I realized when I got back there we had all that 75 years of accumulated dust everywhere.

[Assistant] Crazy.

[User] You people do not know how much you have here.

[Assistant] It’s a great building.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we came in February now there were a few that come the previous fall. They were maybe administrative offices but we were one of the first of the divisions. I went back a few weeks or possibly a few months after we moved here I went back and visited old number 20 and just gagged. The dust was so thick. I always wondered why I was coughing and sneezing and I realized when I got back there we had all that 75 years of accumulated dust everywhere.

[Assistant] Crazy.

[User] You people do not know how much you have here.

[Assistant] It’s a great building.

[User] Oh yes, and you have space and it’s clean. What I did here prepared me for what I do now, which is now I’m actually being an archivist not just reference. The Leesburg United Methodist Church decided that they wanted a historian and it turned out that most of what I do is the work of an archivist; organizing all their materials and preparing accessioning lists and then…marking the location of things. In some cases things are underneath display cases, some of them are still in the church office, some of them are in people’s homes. They were told they needed to get things out of there during the war, and then when we started meeting again afterwards everyone was supposed to bring it back. Well, they didn't. That was the War Between the States and we’re still waiting for some of these people to bring them back.

[Assistant] You sort of have been touching on various pieces of it, but let’s sort of take it from beginning to end, the reference function in the center for electronic records. From when something comes in, in whatever format it comes in what happens to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “N” always stood for whatever we were at the time (…) the National Archives would be “N.” I’m forgetting what the rest of it stood for. It was the acronym of the department.

[Assistant] The other one is NOIS?

[User] NOIS that would be the National Archives or NWME Order Information System; NALDS would be the NWME Automatic Log Data Sheet but “N” stood for all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Let's talk about your professional involvement and as this is an interview for the National Archives Assembly, did you have any roles in the Assembly? Any impact?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were you a member of the Assembly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NOIS that would be the National Archives or NWME Order Information System; NALDS would be the NWME Automatic Log Data Sheet but “N” stood for all kinds of things.

[Assistant] Let's talk about your professional involvement and as this is an interview for the National Archives Assembly, did you have any roles in the Assembly? Any impact?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were you a member of the Assembly?

[User] Oh, I was a member but I was never an officer or anything like that.

[Assistant] How about any other professional organizations? Did you get out and spread the word?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were you a member of the Assembly?

[User] Oh, I was a member but I was never an officer or anything like that.

[Assistant] How about any other professional organizations? Did you get out and spread the word?

[User] The one organization that I belonged to was one for cryptic analysts, cryptographers I’m trying to remember, I can’t remember now. Their main publication was crypto logia and I wrote quite a few articles for them.

[Assistant] You had several articles in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I was a member but I was never an officer or anything like that.

[Assistant] How about any other professional organizations? Did you get out and spread the word?

[User] The one organization that I belonged to was one for cryptic analysts, cryptographers I’m trying to remember, I can’t remember now. Their main publication was crypto logia and I wrote quite a few articles for them.

[Assistant] You had several articles in there.

[User] I got kind of pushed into it by John Taylor who kept telling me, “oh, you got to look at some of this stuff over here.” It had just come in and was being processed, and usually an archivist is just processing something, no one looks at it. John kept saying, “go over there, and take a look at this stuff.” So I did, and it just turned my life around for like 10, 15 years working on code breaking in both theaters: the European and the Pacific theater.

[Assistant] If John Taylor told you to do something you did it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one organization that I belonged to was one for cryptic analysts, cryptographers I’m trying to remember, I can’t remember now. Their main publication was crypto logia and I wrote quite a few articles for them.

[Assistant] You had several articles in there.

[User] I got kind of pushed into it by John Taylor who kept telling me, “oh, you got to look at some of this stuff over here.” It had just come in and was being processed, and usually an archivist is just processing something, no one looks at it. John kept saying, “go over there, and take a look at this stuff.” So I did, and it just turned my life around for like 10, 15 years working on code breaking in both theaters: the European and the Pacific theater.

[Assistant] If John Taylor told you to do something you did it.

[User] And now I’m finding I’m having trouble doing the research when I should be working as an archivist. Boy, but for a while there, I was having a ball. I’d go down there, eat at my desk, and then gallop downstairs to the second floor and just read whatever I put in a slip for that morning. So I’d get 20 minutes or so in each day.

[Assistant] What do you think are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got kind of pushed into it by John Taylor who kept telling me, “oh, you got to look at some of this stuff over here.” It had just come in and was being processed, and usually an archivist is just processing something, no one looks at it. John kept saying, “go over there, and take a look at this stuff.” So I did, and it just turned my life around for like 10, 15 years working on code breaking in both theaters: the European and the Pacific theater.

[Assistant] If John Taylor told you to do something you did it.

[User] And now I’m finding I’m having trouble doing the research when I should be working as an archivist. Boy, but for a while there, I was having a ball. I’d go down there, eat at my desk, and then gallop downstairs to the second floor and just read whatever I put in a slip for that morning. So I’d get 20 minutes or so in each day.

[Assistant] What do you think are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives?

[User] That, I really don’t know. I’m so busy thinking about the challenges of what I’m going to do as the archivist of this little church archives and also as of last week, I am also archivist of the Old Stone Church Foundation Archives. We are the oldest Methodist society in Virginia, founded in 1766. They got all these old records going way back. They need to be organized, they need to be preserved, all essentially the same things you’re doing here. It might not differ quite so much except, you got space!

[Assistant] Do you have any impressions, thoughts, or comments on any of the challenges that came up during your tenure here? How you think? I think the PROFS case would be one of the first things to come to mind, but I think that was prior to your arrival right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And now I’m finding I’m having trouble doing the research when I should be working as an archivist. Boy, but for a while there, I was having a ball. I’d go down there, eat at my desk, and then gallop downstairs to the second floor and just read whatever I put in a slip for that morning. So I’d get 20 minutes or so in each day.

[Assistant] What do you think are the biggest challenges facing the National Archives?

[User] That, I really don’t know. I’m so busy thinking about the challenges of what I’m going to do as the archivist of this little church archives and also as of last week, I am also archivist of the Old Stone Church Foundation Archives. We are the oldest Methodist society in Virginia, founded in 1766. They got all these old records going way back. They need to be organized, they need to be preserved, all essentially the same things you’re doing here. It might not differ quite so much except, you got space!

[Assistant] Do you have any impressions, thoughts, or comments on any of the challenges that came up during your tenure here? How you think? I think the PROFS case would be one of the first things to come to mind, but I think that was prior to your arrival right?

[User] I was here for that but it didn’t really affect my work, unless it involved getting some statistics right away. For example double checking figures given to us by the trust fund. I really didn’t have much to do with any of that.

[Assistant]
Keeping under the radar.

What would you say would be the significant turning points in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That, I really don’t know. I’m so busy thinking about the challenges of what I’m going to do as the archivist of this little church archives and also as of last week, I am also archivist of the Old Stone Church Foundation Archives. We are the oldest Methodist society in Virginia, founded in 1766. They got all these old records going way back. They need to be organized, they need to be preserved, all essentially the same things you’re doing here. It might not differ quite so much except, you got space!

[Assistant] Do you have any impressions, thoughts, or comments on any of the challenges that came up during your tenure here? How you think? I think the PROFS case would be one of the first things to come to mind, but I think that was prior to your arrival right?

[User] I was here for that but it didn’t really affect my work, unless it involved getting some statistics right away. For example double checking figures given to us by the trust fund. I really didn’t have much to do with any of that.

[Assistant]
Keeping under the radar.

What would you say would be the significant turning points in your career?

[User] There were probably several. I think first just coming here as a junior high school kid and doing research and going to the Library of Congress too and just seeing all that information. The thought that was so much out there you could learn and know about some really interesting events or people. That was probably the first influence. And then much later meeting Herb Simon at Carnegie Melon, that was a total revolution in my head to start thinking about just “how do historians solve problems.” If you looked inside their mind, how would you find historical information organized, how would they retrieve it so quickly and easily? Could you do this for a student? That was sort of what I was doing when I came here. It also lent itself naturally to code breaking which was of interest to people in artificial intelligence and it certainly kept me occupied for a good many years. Though not much at this point, you’re just too far away.

[Assistant] How do you view your time here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was here for that but it didn’t really affect my work, unless it involved getting some statistics right away. For example double checking figures given to us by the trust fund. I really didn’t have much to do with any of that.

[Assistant]
Keeping under the radar.

What would you say would be the significant turning points in your career?

[User] There were probably several. I think first just coming here as a junior high school kid and doing research and going to the Library of Congress too and just seeing all that information. The thought that was so much out there you could learn and know about some really interesting events or people. That was probably the first influence. And then much later meeting Herb Simon at Carnegie Melon, that was a total revolution in my head to start thinking about just “how do historians solve problems.” If you looked inside their mind, how would you find historical information organized, how would they retrieve it so quickly and easily? Could you do this for a student? That was sort of what I was doing when I came here. It also lent itself naturally to code breaking which was of interest to people in artificial intelligence and it certainly kept me occupied for a good many years. Though not much at this point, you’re just too far away.

[Assistant] How do you view your time here?

[User] In the past 45 minutes?

[Assistant] Somebody asked you to summarize your career here at the National Archives, however long you want to take to do it. What would you tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were probably several. I think first just coming here as a junior high school kid and doing research and going to the Library of Congress too and just seeing all that information. The thought that was so much out there you could learn and know about some really interesting events or people. That was probably the first influence. And then much later meeting Herb Simon at Carnegie Melon, that was a total revolution in my head to start thinking about just “how do historians solve problems.” If you looked inside their mind, how would you find historical information organized, how would they retrieve it so quickly and easily? Could you do this for a student? That was sort of what I was doing when I came here. It also lent itself naturally to code breaking which was of interest to people in artificial intelligence and it certainly kept me occupied for a good many years. Though not much at this point, you’re just too far away.

[Assistant] How do you view your time here?

[User] In the past 45 minutes?

[Assistant] Somebody asked you to summarize your career here at the National Archives, however long you want to take to do it. What would you tell them?

[User] Well, I would think of those things that I created that made our lives a whole lot easier. Including INPHYX and NALDS and NOIS and all the systems I’ve put together to help us print out requests for casualty lists, POW lists. I think about that a lot but I also think more and more about the people because it was really like a family. You do miss that when you go on and you miss the structure. What I’m trying to do now is sort of recapture that.

[Assistant] I miss your coffee personally.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the past 45 minutes?

[Assistant] Somebody asked you to summarize your career here at the National Archives, however long you want to take to do it. What would you tell them?

[User] Well, I would think of those things that I created that made our lives a whole lot easier. Including INPHYX and NALDS and NOIS and all the systems I’ve put together to help us print out requests for casualty lists, POW lists. I think about that a lot but I also think more and more about the people because it was really like a family. You do miss that when you go on and you miss the structure. What I’m trying to do now is sort of recapture that.

[Assistant] I miss your coffee personally.

[User] Well, thank you. I do appreciate that. Yeah I used to think, if I can get the coffee made, make it properly. At least I’ve done one thing right today.

[Assistant] There were several mornings, cause I’m making the coffee now, there are certain mornings that it doesn’t get made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would think of those things that I created that made our lives a whole lot easier. Including INPHYX and NALDS and NOIS and all the systems I’ve put together to help us print out requests for casualty lists, POW lists. I think about that a lot but I also think more and more about the people because it was really like a family. You do miss that when you go on and you miss the structure. What I’m trying to do now is sort of recapture that.

[Assistant] I miss your coffee personally.

[User] Well, thank you. I do appreciate that. Yeah I used to think, if I can get the coffee made, make it properly. At least I’ve done one thing right today.

[Assistant] There were several mornings, cause I’m making the coffee now, there are certain mornings that it doesn’t get made.

[User] Well, you heard the story about Peggy, didn’t you? This was one that Greg Lamotta told me. You may have heard it. Greg and I used to switch on and off making the coffee. Well anyway, one day Peggy came by and thanked him for the coffee and said that it was pretty good. He didn’t have the heart to tell her that he hadn’t made any coffee that day. She had gotten yesterday’s. Usually she gets in around 10, that time the coffee pot is off and it might be luke warm if she’s lucky, but she’ll drink it anyway. If you give her crankese oil, she’ll drink it.

[Assistant] She’s been off coffee for a little while. I’m wondering if the world is beginning to spin off its axis because she hasn’t been drinking as much coffee anymore.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, thank you. I do appreciate that. Yeah I used to think, if I can get the coffee made, make it properly. At least I’ve done one thing right today.

[Assistant] There were several mornings, cause I’m making the coffee now, there are certain mornings that it doesn’t get made.

[User] Well, you heard the story about Peggy, didn’t you? This was one that Greg Lamotta told me. You may have heard it. Greg and I used to switch on and off making the coffee. Well anyway, one day Peggy came by and thanked him for the coffee and said that it was pretty good. He didn’t have the heart to tell her that he hadn’t made any coffee that day. She had gotten yesterday’s. Usually she gets in around 10, that time the coffee pot is off and it might be luke warm if she’s lucky, but she’ll drink it anyway. If you give her crankese oil, she’ll drink it.

[Assistant] She’s been off coffee for a little while. I’m wondering if the world is beginning to spin off its axis because she hasn’t been drinking as much coffee anymore.

[User] Hmm, I’ll have to talk to her about that. Well I’ve been off it too for medical reasons. When the church secretary makes coffee I go over, I don’t drink it, I smell it; just the aroma of it.

[Assistant] For the last question, I sort of had it on a list of questions that I had players choice. If there’s something you want to address, this is the question that has been rolling around in my head, that I think would sort of be a good summary and conclusion. Somebody from 10, 15 years down the road, they come across this interview, and they are just starting out their career at the National Archives. They pop this in, and they are watching it. What does Lee Gladwin want to tell the new NARA person who’s just starting here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stanonik.

[Assistant] Stanonik Van Hala, who lives in Moreno Valley, California. She was a volunteer in India, 1965 to '68. The way we usually start is I ask people to go back to the time, oh, six months or a year before you joined the Peace Corps and give us some idea of what you were doing. You can go back into your own background at that point and then we'll come up toward your deciding to join.

[User] Okay. I was attending college the years before I joined the Peace Corps and I, I had met President Kennedy when I was touring with my senior high school group in the White House so.

[Assistant] Where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to high school at, in Ohio, and Mantua Corners was where we lived. But the school was called Crestwood High School. It was a conglomeration of several of the cities around. I had been raised in Hiram, Ohio, and I just moved over to this area.

[Assistant] And what kind of area was it, farming or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. I was attending college the years before I joined the Peace Corps and I, I had met President Kennedy when I was touring with my senior high school group in the White House so.

[Assistant] Where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to high school at, in Ohio, and Mantua Corners was where we lived. But the school was called Crestwood High School. It was a conglomeration of several of the cities around. I had been raised in Hiram, Ohio, and I just moved over to this area.

[Assistant] And what kind of area was it, farming or?

[User] Um, Hiram, where I spent most of my years was a small college town, but Mantua Corners more or less was an agricultural cum bedroom city becoming bedroom city for the outlying cities of Streetsboro, Akron, Cleveland. We were in a triangle between Cleveland, Akron, and Youngstown.

[Assistant] What was the occasion for your meeting President Kennedy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, Hiram, where I spent most of my years was a small college town, but Mantua Corners more or less was an agricultural cum bedroom city becoming bedroom city for the outlying cities of Streetsboro, Akron, Cleveland. We were in a triangle between Cleveland, Akron, and Youngstown.

[Assistant] What was the occasion for your meeting President Kennedy?

[User] I was on our senior trip. We had raised money for our trip to Washington, and we were touring the White House and we were just at the end of the tour, a friend of mine, a girlfriend and I. And she turned around and I turned around. And President Kennedy had come down from the elevator from up above. And all of a sudden several of the other tourists were turning around and running after him. We came over more slowly, and of course, we were very much in awe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I managed to get a little thumb shake in there. So it was very, it was a very important occasion. And since when I went to college, I decided I would major in social studies and history and look for.

[Assistant] What year was it, the senior?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I managed to get a little thumb shake in there. So it was very, it was a very important occasion. And since when I went to college, I decided I would major in social studies and history and look for.

[Assistant] What year was it, the senior?

[User] This occurred in 1961. I graduated in '61. So it was the spring of that year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, um.

[Assistant] Had you studied the Peace Corps? At that point, had you heard of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, I was still in college. And so I did take a, I was able to get a, it's not a scholarship, but an award to go to do a three month study in Washington, or no, a six month study in Washington called Washington Semester Program when I was a junior in college. And I went to Hiram College.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And in that program, we were sent all over Washington, and that would have been in 1960. Actually, it was right after President Kennedy was killed. I had asked to be in that program hoping, you know, we'd get back in there and get some government work done and so forth. But then he was killed and it was in the, uh, from January till June of '64 that I attended that program.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I became very interested in that type of work. And because we had had seminars with a lot of government officials and we were sent around to many, many different departments.

[Assistant] And what were you majoring in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in that program, we were sent all over Washington, and that would have been in 1960. Actually, it was right after President Kennedy was killed. I had asked to be in that program hoping, you know, we'd get back in there and get some government work done and so forth. But then he was killed and it was in the, uh, from January till June of '64 that I attended that program.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I became very interested in that type of work. And because we had had seminars with a lot of government officials and we were sent around to many, many different departments.

[Assistant] And what were you majoring in?

[User] Political science and history.

[Assistant] Any long-term goal at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I became very interested in that type of work. And because we had had seminars with a lot of government officials and we were sent around to many, many different departments.

[Assistant] And what were you majoring in?

[User] Political science and history.

[Assistant] Any long-term goal at that point?

[User] I, at that point, I had hoped to go into government work of some type. I didn't know what kind. But, um, then I heard about the Peace Corps and I thought, well, after I graduated, this would be a good thing to go into before I make up my mind about going to graduate school or whatever I was going to do.

[Assistant] Do you particularly remember how you, how you heard about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Political science and history.

[Assistant] Any long-term goal at that point?

[User] I, at that point, I had hoped to go into government work of some type. I didn't know what kind. But, um, then I heard about the Peace Corps and I thought, well, after I graduated, this would be a good thing to go into before I make up my mind about going to graduate school or whatever I was going to do.

[Assistant] Do you particularly remember how you, how you heard about it?

[User] I can't remember. I think it was just advertisements, probably.

[Assistant] Okay. Anyone would come on campus and talk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, at that point, I had hoped to go into government work of some type. I didn't know what kind. But, um, then I heard about the Peace Corps and I thought, well, after I graduated, this would be a good thing to go into before I make up my mind about going to graduate school or whatever I was going to do.

[Assistant] Do you particularly remember how you, how you heard about it?

[User] I can't remember. I think it was just advertisements, probably.

[Assistant] Okay. Anyone would come on campus and talk?

[User] No, no. No, I didn't hear anything like that. Hiram was pretty conservative. At any rate, I was very interested in traveling, so I thought this would be good.

[Assistant] So you were coming close then to your finishing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember. I think it was just advertisements, probably.

[Assistant] Okay. Anyone would come on campus and talk?

[User] No, no. No, I didn't hear anything like that. Hiram was pretty conservative. At any rate, I was very interested in traveling, so I thought this would be good.

[Assistant] So you were coming close then to your finishing?

[User] Right. And I didn't ask for any particular area.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, pages and pages and pages and pages.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And then we took a very long test.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I still remember part of that test today.

[Assistant] Right, which part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we took a very long test.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I still remember part of that test today.

[Assistant] Right, which part?

[User] I remember the part where they had words on paper that were only partially seen. Well, this was easy because, of course, in school we had been reading dittos, which we can never read. And when I was, you know, since I've been teaching, we still used dittos for years later. And the kids would always say, we can't read this. Pft, you can read it. Just look at it a little more carefully. What do you think those letters might be?

[Assistant] And did you study any foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I still remember part of that test today.

[Assistant] Right, which part?

[User] I remember the part where they had words on paper that were only partially seen. Well, this was easy because, of course, in school we had been reading dittos, which we can never read. And when I was, you know, since I've been teaching, we still used dittos for years later. And the kids would always say, we can't read this. Pft, you can read it. Just look at it a little more carefully. What do you think those letters might be?

[Assistant] And did you study any foreign language?

[User] In college, well, in high school, I studied Latin two years, and then I also studied French in college, two years of French and one year of Russian. And when we, when we went to India with the Peace Corps training, we had training in learning Hindi.

[Assistant] Yeah, well we'll get to that. So as of completing college, you had your bachelor's degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the part where they had words on paper that were only partially seen. Well, this was easy because, of course, in school we had been reading dittos, which we can never read. And when I was, you know, since I've been teaching, we still used dittos for years later. And the kids would always say, we can't read this. Pft, you can read it. Just look at it a little more carefully. What do you think those letters might be?

[Assistant] And did you study any foreign language?

[User] In college, well, in high school, I studied Latin two years, and then I also studied French in college, two years of French and one year of Russian. And when we, when we went to India with the Peace Corps training, we had training in learning Hindi.

[Assistant] Yeah, well we'll get to that. So as of completing college, you had your bachelor's degree.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And had you applied at that point before graduation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In college, well, in high school, I studied Latin two years, and then I also studied French in college, two years of French and one year of Russian. And when we, when we went to India with the Peace Corps training, we had training in learning Hindi.

[Assistant] Yeah, well we'll get to that. So as of completing college, you had your bachelor's degree.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And had you applied at that point before graduation?

[User] Yes, I think I started the application process in January of my last year.

[Assistant] Did you have any fallback? In other words, if I don't get in the Peace Corps then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think I started the application process in January of my last year.

[Assistant] Did you have any fallback? In other words, if I don't get in the Peace Corps then?

[User] Right. I had gotten, despite not wanting to, my high school certification for teaching.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] As a fall back.

[Assistant] Well, since you mentioned, you characterized, you said that Hiram was somewhat conservative.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I had gotten, despite not wanting to, my high school certification for teaching.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] As a fall back.

[Assistant] Well, since you mentioned, you characterized, you said that Hiram was somewhat conservative.

[User] Very.

[Assistant] How did people, friends, family, colleagues react to your wanting to join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a fall back.

[Assistant] Well, since you mentioned, you characterized, you said that Hiram was somewhat conservative.

[User] Very.

[Assistant] How did people, friends, family, colleagues react to your wanting to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was very surprised that I had been selected to go to India because I didn't even know India was part of their program. And when I found out I was going to be working with a poultry project, I told people, oh, I'm, I'm going to India to work with a poultry project. And they thought I said poetry project, because coming from a liberal arts college, they hadn't expected anybody to go into that type of thing. And I really hadn't had any experience with poultry raising other than the fact that when I lived in Mantua there was a chicken farm near us and I did wash eggs. That's as close as I got to them.

[Assistant] Do you remember whether you had put that down on your application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very.

[Assistant] How did people, friends, family, colleagues react to your wanting to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was very surprised that I had been selected to go to India because I didn't even know India was part of their program. And when I found out I was going to be working with a poultry project, I told people, oh, I'm, I'm going to India to work with a poultry project. And they thought I said poetry project, because coming from a liberal arts college, they hadn't expected anybody to go into that type of thing. And I really hadn't had any experience with poultry raising other than the fact that when I lived in Mantua there was a chicken farm near us and I did wash eggs. That's as close as I got to them.

[Assistant] Do you remember whether you had put that down on your application?

[User] Yes, I did. I did. That must have got them. So I had washed eggs for several years, earning pennies.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. But did people think you were absolutely crazy or did they think that, you know, what in the world are they doing, sending you to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. I did. That must have got them. So I had washed eggs for several years, earning pennies.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. But did people think you were absolutely crazy or did they think that, you know, what in the world are they doing, sending you to India?

[User] They, once I explained it, I think they thought I was a little crazy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And what are you doing that for? But I've always been a person that likes to do different things so.

[Assistant] How about your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I was not a person that was going to go do some weird thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] They, um, they had had a little experience in that because of what, when I was a freshman in college, I, I applied for this job that said Maids for New York. And they had thought this was arranged through the college and it wasn't. It was some fly by night operation that was going to lock us in a room. We got there, we took out a bus ticket to New York, and they were going to, if we didn't get a job, they were going to lock us up because they had paid for our tickets. And so I was the only white person in the whole group.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a little scary there. But I did get hired and.

[Assistant] As a maid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, um, they had had a little experience in that because of what, when I was a freshman in college, I, I applied for this job that said Maids for New York. And they had thought this was arranged through the college and it wasn't. It was some fly by night operation that was going to lock us in a room. We got there, we took out a bus ticket to New York, and they were going to, if we didn't get a job, they were going to lock us up because they had paid for our tickets. And so I was the only white person in the whole group.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a little scary there. But I did get hired and.

[Assistant] As a maid?

[User] Yes, as a maid. I worked as a maid one whole summer.

[Assistant] In the city or out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a little scary there. But I did get hired and.

[Assistant] As a maid?

[User] Yes, as a maid. I worked as a maid one whole summer.

[Assistant] In the city or out?

[User] It was in the New Jersey side of New York City.

[Assistant] Okay. Was it someone's summer home or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as a maid. I worked as a maid one whole summer.

[Assistant] In the city or out?

[User] It was in the New Jersey side of New York City.

[Assistant] Okay. Was it someone's summer home or?

[User] No, it was a kind of a fanatic family. They, they were extremely concerned about everything being nit-picky clean.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in the New Jersey side of New York City.

[Assistant] Okay. Was it someone's summer home or?

[User] No, it was a kind of a fanatic family. They, they were extremely concerned about everything being nit-picky clean.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] And the husband and wife didn't really get along, but they were quote unquote friends. So, at any rate, I just. She would come around with a white glove and everything. I mean, she was. I was on my hands and knees for hours scrubbing out waxed floors that had been waxed for years and never cleaned off.

[Assistant] And how long do you last at that job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was a kind of a fanatic family. They, they were extremely concerned about everything being nit-picky clean.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] And the husband and wife didn't really get along, but they were quote unquote friends. So, at any rate, I just. She would come around with a white glove and everything. I mean, she was. I was on my hands and knees for hours scrubbing out waxed floors that had been waxed for years and never cleaned off.

[Assistant] And how long do you last at that job?

[User] Three months. When she found out I was going back to college, she had a fit.

[Assistant] Yeah. She didn't know that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were so glad to find a white person.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, they were very bigoted.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay.

[User] Prejudiced. So they didn't ask me that and I didn't tell them. At any rate, I told them after a couple of weeks being there that I would be leaving to go back to school and they had a fit, so they just stomped and raged and then they reduced my, my fee and kept me locked up more. I mean, my payment, my salary.

[Assistant] So you survived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Prejudiced. So they didn't ask me that and I didn't tell them. At any rate, I told them after a couple of weeks being there that I would be leaving to go back to school and they had a fit, so they just stomped and raged and then they reduced my, my fee and kept me locked up more. I mean, my payment, my salary.

[Assistant] So you survived?

[User] Yeah, I survived that. I mean, they rationed the food and everything. I only got a little teeny bit of food every day and.

[Assistant] Oh, funny.

[User] These rich people.

[Assistant] Yeah. And this was when, when in your college career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I survived that. I mean, they rationed the food and everything. I only got a little teeny bit of food every day and.

[Assistant] Oh, funny.

[User] These rich people.

[Assistant] Yeah. And this was when, when in your college career?

[User] I was at the end of my freshman year going into sophomore summer.

[Assistant] And by the time you graduated college, had you done any travel outside the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These rich people.

[Assistant] Yeah. And this was when, when in your college career?

[User] I was at the end of my freshman year going into sophomore summer.

[Assistant] And by the time you graduated college, had you done any travel outside the United States?

[User] I think when we were, I was very young, we went to Canada, but mostly my parents didn't go anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And then during college, you didn't, you went places but within the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at the end of my freshman year going into sophomore summer.

[Assistant] And by the time you graduated college, had you done any travel outside the United States?

[User] I think when we were, I was very young, we went to Canada, but mostly my parents didn't go anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And then during college, you didn't, you went places but within the United States?

[User] I, okay, let's see. Yeah, I know I'd been in Washington and, of course, lived in Cleveland for a while. I worked in Cleveland during my junior year in an internship program there. But I had not traveled anywhere, I don't think, outside the United States.

[Assistant] Do you recall getting the notification that you were being invited to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think when we were, I was very young, we went to Canada, but mostly my parents didn't go anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And then during college, you didn't, you went places but within the United States?

[User] I, okay, let's see. Yeah, I know I'd been in Washington and, of course, lived in Cleveland for a while. I worked in Cleveland during my junior year in an internship program there. But I had not traveled anywhere, I don't think, outside the United States.

[Assistant] Do you recall getting the notification that you were being invited to India?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] With the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, okay, let's see. Yeah, I know I'd been in Washington and, of course, lived in Cleveland for a while. I worked in Cleveland during my junior year in an internship program there. But I had not traveled anywhere, I don't think, outside the United States.

[Assistant] Do you recall getting the notification that you were being invited to India?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] With the Peace Corps.

[User] Very excited about it.

[Assistant] Did you did you have any idea where India was or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very excited about it.

[Assistant] Did you did you have any idea where India was or what?

[User] Oh, yes. I had studied Indian religions, just that, not knowing I was going there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had already studied that and I was very interested in the country already and it had quite a history. So, and since being a history major, I, I don't know if I took a history of India, but I was reading up on it.

[Assistant] So you had no hesitation about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I had studied Indian religions, just that, not knowing I was going there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had already studied that and I was very interested in the country already and it had quite a history. So, and since being a history major, I, I don't know if I took a history of India, but I was reading up on it.

[Assistant] So you had no hesitation about.

[User] Oh, no. I know people told me that it was going to be terrible in terms of the poverty and all of that.

[Assistant] Yeah. People back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had already studied that and I was very interested in the country already and it had quite a history. So, and since being a history major, I, I don't know if I took a history of India, but I was reading up on it.

[Assistant] So you had no hesitation about.

[User] Oh, no. I know people told me that it was going to be terrible in terms of the poverty and all of that.

[Assistant] Yeah. People back.

[User] I think that we were, we were very well. During the training, we were very well prepared for that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you're accepted, you finish your degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. I know people told me that it was going to be terrible in terms of the poverty and all of that.

[Assistant] Yeah. People back.

[User] I think that we were, we were very well. During the training, we were very well prepared for that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you're accepted, you finish your degree.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And how soon after did you report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that we were, we were very well. During the training, we were very well prepared for that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you're accepted, you finish your degree.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And how soon after did you report?

[User] Immediately. I think within a week or two of the end of my school, graduating, we went right to training.

[Assistant] Did you go into training with the expectation that you would go from training directly to India or that you would have a chance to come back home for a leave? Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And how soon after did you report?

[User] Immediately. I think within a week or two of the end of my school, graduating, we went right to training.

[Assistant] Did you go into training with the expectation that you would go from training directly to India or that you would have a chance to come back home for a leave? Do you recall that?

[User] It didn't really matter to me because I really had lived away from home when I was in college. But, um, I think they told us we were going to have a short leave before we went.

[Assistant] I mean, you have to pack up and stuff like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It didn't really matter to me because I really had lived away from home when I was in college. But, um, I think they told us we were going to have a short leave before we went.

[Assistant] I mean, you have to pack up and stuff like that.

[User] And I also remember I was trying to get my driver's license.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I had tried several times, but I, at that, when I was young, I was so nervous that every time I went in there to take that test, I couldn't do it. I was so cautious. And finally, this last time, I ended up driving a car that was not even mine, and I wasn't familiar with it even. And I was just determined I was going to get it. And I think the guy finally got tired of seeing me there and he said, well, you can learn how to drive in India. And I told him I was going to India. That's probably how I got my license. I didn't realize I wasn't going to be driving a car in India.

[Assistant] Did the local paper make note of the fact that you had joined and it was Peace Corps in India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I also remember I was trying to get my driver's license.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I had tried several times, but I, at that, when I was young, I was so nervous that every time I went in there to take that test, I couldn't do it. I was so cautious. And finally, this last time, I ended up driving a car that was not even mine, and I wasn't familiar with it even. And I was just determined I was going to get it. And I think the guy finally got tired of seeing me there and he said, well, you can learn how to drive in India. And I told him I was going to India. That's probably how I got my license. I didn't realize I wasn't going to be driving a car in India.

[Assistant] Did the local paper make note of the fact that you had joined and it was Peace Corps in India?

[User] Uh, probably did, but I, I don't know if. My parents cleaned out most of my stuff and threw it out, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah. It's interesting, you're of the early generation of people who joined the Peace Corps after Kennedy had died. And, of course, in the early days, joining was always somehow related to President Kennedy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He and his brother, having worked so hard with the civil rights and everything. Of course, that really came after we were over in India but.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Just his ideas were so different from what, and of course, my parents were Democrats. They were solid Democrats so.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] This was, uh. And to have such a young president.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, I mean, go in '65 when you went in, there was there was still some association.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just his ideas were so different from what, and of course, my parents were Democrats. They were solid Democrats so.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] This was, uh. And to have such a young president.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, I mean, go in '65 when you went in, there was there was still some association.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, just the idea of the Peace Corps, I thought was such a great idea. And I knew he had started and Sargent Shriver was carrying it out.

[Assistant] You reported for training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, just the idea of the Peace Corps, I thought was such a great idea. And I knew he had started and Sargent Shriver was carrying it out.

[Assistant] You reported for training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] To?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Tell me where.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was assigned, of course, the women's dorm. And our training consisted of getting up early in the morning for exercise program. We did a Royal Canadian Air Force exercise program and then we did running.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We were running the mile by the end, which to me was a lot. Nowadays it's nothing. But those days nobody jogged.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So at any rate, we went to classes all day long, had a little break for dinner, of course, lunch and dinner. And then we went on in the evening till like 10:30, 11:00. So it was very intensive training.

[Assistant] How long was it scheduled for, the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were running the mile by the end, which to me was a lot. Nowadays it's nothing. But those days nobody jogged.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So at any rate, we went to classes all day long, had a little break for dinner, of course, lunch and dinner. And then we went on in the evening till like 10:30, 11:00. So it was very intensive training.

[Assistant] How long was it scheduled for, the?

[User] It was, I believe, about 12 weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. And do you remember the number of approximate number of trainees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So at any rate, we went to classes all day long, had a little break for dinner, of course, lunch and dinner. And then we went on in the evening till like 10:30, 11:00. So it was very intensive training.

[Assistant] How long was it scheduled for, the?

[User] It was, I believe, about 12 weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. And do you remember the number of approximate number of trainees?

[User] There were about 103 or so.

[Assistant] Do you recall the male female break on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, I believe, about 12 weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. And do you remember the number of approximate number of trainees?

[User] There were about 103 or so.

[Assistant] Do you recall the male female break on that?

[User] I think it was half and half, but I'm not really sure. I don't.

[Assistant] And at that point, did you know that you were about to become India 16? It was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was half and half, but I'm not really sure. I don't.

[Assistant] And at that point, did you know that you were about to become India 16? It was there?

[User] I think so. We were, I think we were called India 16 from the beginning.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And I really can't remember how many women there were compared to men.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, that's okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. We were, I think we were called India 16 from the beginning.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And I really can't remember how many women there were compared to men.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, that's okay.

[User] I didn't pay attention to that, I guess.

[Assistant] Were you on a seven day a week schedule with the training or did you get?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I really can't remember how many women there were compared to men.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, that's okay.

[User] I didn't pay attention to that, I guess.

[Assistant] Were you on a seven day a week schedule with the training or did you get?

[User] I, it seems to me we were, because we always had to take care of the chickens.

[Assistant] Was that from day one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't pay attention to that, I guess.

[Assistant] Were you on a seven day a week schedule with the training or did you get?

[User] I, it seems to me we were, because we always had to take care of the chickens.

[Assistant] Was that from day one?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And tell me about taking care of the chickens.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, it seems to me we were, because we always had to take care of the chickens.

[Assistant] Was that from day one?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And tell me about taking care of the chickens.

[User] Well, our classes consisted of learning Hindi, of course, which was usually in set conversations to memorize, for learning how to take care of chickens. And also we had to do cultural classes. And of course, the physical training part, just getting ourselves in shape. And, um, let's see. And then just, I think some history classes about India just to give us information.

[Assistant] Was there anything in the name of American studies, learning about U.S.? You mentioned Great Books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, our classes consisted of learning Hindi, of course, which was usually in set conversations to memorize, for learning how to take care of chickens. And also we had to do cultural classes. And of course, the physical training part, just getting ourselves in shape. And, um, let's see. And then just, I think some history classes about India just to give us information.

[Assistant] Was there anything in the name of American studies, learning about U.S.? You mentioned Great Books.

[User] Oh, yes. We, um, we used the Great Books to, as a guideline to. We did a lot of reading in those areas and then discussed them in relation to some of the things we might meet as we got to India.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Now you had asked about whether we have seven day a week training. I know we must have had some let-up on Saturdays and Sundays, but I don't can't recall exactly.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you're first checking in or during the first week or two, how you measured yourself up against the others who, you know, who were trainees? Here are a bunch of people who had joined.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's just that I was very shy and I had been raised to be seen, not heard. Six kids in a house.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I was in the middle. So at any rate, I was not accustomed to speaking my mind about things.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn't learn how to do that till the end. I was almost 38.

[Assistant] But then that must have related to the selection process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was in the middle. So at any rate, I was not accustomed to speaking my mind about things.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn't learn how to do that till the end. I was almost 38.

[Assistant] But then that must have related to the selection process.

[User] They were a little concerned at the end whether I might make it or not, because.

[Assistant] Do you recall what the selection process was? I mean, how? Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't learn how to do that till the end. I was almost 38.

[Assistant] But then that must have related to the selection process.

[User] They were a little concerned at the end whether I might make it or not, because.

[Assistant] Do you recall what the selection process was? I mean, how? Yeah.

[User]
Well, part of it was, of course, we had to learn how to take care of the chickens. That was easy for me and running and all the physical part, that was easy. And I had no problems with anything, um, grading and writing. I've always been very good at writing and anything that was required for grade wise, that kind of thing. But speaking was not something I did. I would speak up once in a while, but I was very shy about that.

But during the final process I remember we had to completely clean out the chicken houses and take care of all of that. And then these returned Peace Corps volunteers told us we had to break the neck of a chicken in order to pass. Now, I think that was, they were just pulling our legs, but that was pretty gross. And some of the girls wouldn't do it, but I did it. And then another part of it was I remember there were a group of professors that were questioning me about being in India and they were going on and on about different things. And would I be worried about not seeing my family and not dating and all of this type of thing?

[Assistant] Was it a group interviewing you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were a little concerned at the end whether I might make it or not, because.

[Assistant] Do you recall what the selection process was? I mean, how? Yeah.

[User]
Well, part of it was, of course, we had to learn how to take care of the chickens. That was easy for me and running and all the physical part, that was easy. And I had no problems with anything, um, grading and writing. I've always been very good at writing and anything that was required for grade wise, that kind of thing. But speaking was not something I did. I would speak up once in a while, but I was very shy about that.

But during the final process I remember we had to completely clean out the chicken houses and take care of all of that. And then these returned Peace Corps volunteers told us we had to break the neck of a chicken in order to pass. Now, I think that was, they were just pulling our legs, but that was pretty gross. And some of the girls wouldn't do it, but I did it. And then another part of it was I remember there were a group of professors that were questioning me about being in India and they were going on and on about different things. And would I be worried about not seeing my family and not dating and all of this type of thing?

[Assistant] Was it a group interviewing you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, it was?

[User] About three. I think a couple of the returned volunteers and about two or three other people.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It might have been the project coordinator and somebody else.

[Assistant] Were the returned volunteers built into the training from the very beginning


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About three. I think a couple of the returned volunteers and about two or three other people.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It might have been the project coordinator and somebody else.

[Assistant] Were the returned volunteers built into the training from the very beginning

[User] Yes. They did a lot of comical things to show us some of the situations in India, skits and things. And we had a, we did some talent show type things too, as we went along.

[Assistant] Were there any Indians involved in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe there was one man at least who was working with us on the Hindi and some of the cultural aspects.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I'm sure when you interview my husband, you'll get more along those details.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was a very naive person at that stage of the game.

[Assistant] Right. Uh. Did you have any training? So you. Was there a level of Hindi fluency you were expected to reach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm sure when you interview my husband, you'll get more along those details.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was a very naive person at that stage of the game.

[Assistant] Right. Uh. Did you have any training? So you. Was there a level of Hindi fluency you were expected to reach?

[User] We had our final testing in that and I think I got an S plus or something like that, whatever, on the.

[Assistant] Do you know of any in the group who were who flunked out because of the Hindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I don't, I don't recall anybody who flunked out because of the, the Hindi problem. There were some that either had family problems or something like that. We didn't lose too many.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were. There was one other thing I remember they did with us as part of our final training, our selection. They took us to, let's see, I guess it was somewhere around Annapolis. They took us out in the boondocks. There was a couple of different things. They took us out in the boondocks and dropped us off and wanted us to make our way for a day or two. Out in these country roads, dirt roads somewhere. And it seems like we ended up just going to some churches or something and getting some help from them. And somehow, it's kind of foggy. I can't remember everything, but I know there was another instance where they dropped us off in downtown, some slum area. I don't know if it was Annapolis or some city right near there. And they wanted us to make our way at night in that area.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And those didn't bother me any because our group worked together in small groups and we took care of whatever it was we had to do.

[Assistant] It's very, I guess it's variations on the Outward Bound concept of, you know, there are points where you're challenged to face the problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were. There was one other thing I remember they did with us as part of our final training, our selection. They took us to, let's see, I guess it was somewhere around Annapolis. They took us out in the boondocks. There was a couple of different things. They took us out in the boondocks and dropped us off and wanted us to make our way for a day or two. Out in these country roads, dirt roads somewhere. And it seems like we ended up just going to some churches or something and getting some help from them. And somehow, it's kind of foggy. I can't remember everything, but I know there was another instance where they dropped us off in downtown, some slum area. I don't know if it was Annapolis or some city right near there. And they wanted us to make our way at night in that area.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And those didn't bother me any because our group worked together in small groups and we took care of whatever it was we had to do.

[Assistant] It's very, I guess it's variations on the Outward Bound concept of, you know, there are points where you're challenged to face the problem.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were African Americans in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And those didn't bother me any because our group worked together in small groups and we took care of whatever it was we had to do.

[Assistant] It's very, I guess it's variations on the Outward Bound concept of, you know, there are points where you're challenged to face the problem.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were African Americans in the training?

[User] Yes, I think there were. I mean, I should get out my old Peace Corps book and look through. We, we used to keep tabs with it up until about '82 when we moved out here to California. After that, we kind of lost track.

[Assistant] So training went on. Was it, did it last 12 weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were African Americans in the training?

[User] Yes, I think there were. I mean, I should get out my old Peace Corps book and look through. We, we used to keep tabs with it up until about '82 when we moved out here to California. After that, we kind of lost track.

[Assistant] So training went on. Was it, did it last 12 weeks?

[User] Oh, yeah. As I recall, we were finished sometime near the end of August or early September, and then we went home for a week or so. That's when I got my driver's license. And then then we were told to report to New York City.

[Assistant] Okay. Now let's go back to the language training. Was it your understanding that you would be working in Hindi or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. As I recall, we were finished sometime near the end of August or early September, and then we went home for a week or so. That's when I got my driver's license. And then then we were told to report to New York City.

[Assistant] Okay. Now let's go back to the language training. Was it your understanding that you would be working in Hindi or?

[User] We were told that it would be to our benefit to know Hindi. Most of our people were going to areas where English was well spoken, though.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it's a good thing we did get the Hindi training because we were dealing with a lot of very poor people out in the rural areas and they didn't speak English.

[Assistant] Now, is Hindi the common language throughout India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were told that it would be to our benefit to know Hindi. Most of our people were going to areas where English was well spoken, though.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it's a good thing we did get the Hindi training because we were dealing with a lot of very poor people out in the rural areas and they didn't speak English.

[Assistant] Now, is Hindi the common language throughout India?

[User] Yes. India has at least 16 major languages.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's what I thought.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it's a good thing we did get the Hindi training because we were dealing with a lot of very poor people out in the rural areas and they didn't speak English.

[Assistant] Now, is Hindi the common language throughout India?

[User] Yes. India has at least 16 major languages.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's what I thought.

[User] And thousands of, hundreds of dialects. So Hindi was, and English are the universal languages in that country.

[Assistant] Did anyone, did you have any sessions talking about, you studied the culture, in which you were prepared to deal with Indian English, which is not quite the same as American?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I believe that sometimes in the skits they used the Indian English.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I can't recall it after that. It took me a while to pick it up and to talk like they are talking.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I will listen to you. You are coming now and.

[Assistant] And tuning in to the pattern, I mean. So overall, what was the role of the returned volunteers? Was it helpful? Did they overdo it? Were they like veterans trying to scare?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I will listen to you. You are coming now and.

[Assistant] And tuning in to the pattern, I mean. So overall, what was the role of the returned volunteers? Was it helpful? Did they overdo it? Were they like veterans trying to scare?

[User] I think they were blazing a trail and I don't think anybody had given them much guidance.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They weren't, you know, people who had been trained on how to teach other people or anything, but they did, it did help us. And it was encouraging to see they were still alive after the whole thing.

[Assistant] Had they been in a chicken project or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't, you know, people who had been trained on how to teach other people or anything, but they did, it did help us. And it was encouraging to see they were still alive after the whole thing.

[Assistant] Had they been in a chicken project or?

[User] I can't remember what their projects were. One of them might have been, because they knew how to do the chickens.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So maybe somebody must have been in one, in the chicken project.

[Assistant] At the time you were going, do you have any idea what the total number of volunteers in India was, say, as about '65?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember what their projects were. One of them might have been, because they knew how to do the chickens.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So maybe somebody must have been in one, in the chicken project.

[Assistant] At the time you were going, do you have any idea what the total number of volunteers in India was, say, as about '65?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have any sense of the project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have any sense of the project?

[User] I'm sure we did at the time.

[Assistant] You knew.

[User] There were several groups in India at the time.

[Assistant] Okay. So you had a sense it was a big project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And there were different. There were several people in the poultry project, several different groups in that and several. Of course, we're India 16, so there were only that many totally. Um.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That had been in the country in the history anyway. But I know there were some projects that were in health areas too.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We were fortunate with the poultry project because that was one the state or the country of India really supported. They didn't always support the other projects.

[Assistant] Do you recall final selection that, did they announce you're going and you're not or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall that it was anything mysterious.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I, I was so naive. I just figured, why wouldn't they let me go?

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I, it didn't bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have any sense of who might be going with you? In other words, were you clustered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I was so naive. I just figured, why wouldn't they let me go?

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I, it didn't bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have any sense of who might be going with you? In other words, were you clustered?

[User] Oh, I know that when they finally, when we finally got to India and they told us who my partner was going to be, I was disappointed. It was not one of the, they put me with a very strong- willed other girl.

[Assistant] And it may have been because she was so strong.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, it didn't bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have any sense of who might be going with you? In other words, were you clustered?

[User] Oh, I know that when they finally, when we finally got to India and they told us who my partner was going to be, I was disappointed. It was not one of the, they put me with a very strong- willed other girl.

[Assistant] And it may have been because she was so strong.

[User] Because they thought I was too meek and mild. They just didn't know me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So was there a graduation exercise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I know that when they finally, when we finally got to India and they told us who my partner was going to be, I was disappointed. It was not one of the, they put me with a very strong- willed other girl.

[Assistant] And it may have been because she was so strong.

[User] Because they thought I was too meek and mild. They just didn't know me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So was there a graduation exercise?

[User] We probably did have one.

[Assistant] Did anyone come, do you remember anyone coming out from Washington during your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they thought I was too meek and mild. They just didn't know me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So was there a graduation exercise?

[User] We probably did have one.

[Assistant] Did anyone come, do you remember anyone coming out from Washington during your training?

[User] There were probably some bigwigs there.

[Assistant] You didn't meet Shriver.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We probably did have one.

[Assistant] Did anyone come, do you remember anyone coming out from Washington during your training?

[User] There were probably some bigwigs there.

[Assistant] You didn't meet Shriver.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. You went home for a couple of days. Did you come home as a hero? Did people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were probably some bigwigs there.

[Assistant] You didn't meet Shriver.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. You went home for a couple of days. Did you come home as a hero? Did people?

[User] Oh, my. I just came home. Nobody.

[Assistant] Your folks try to discourage you at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. You went home for a couple of days. Did you come home as a hero? Did people?

[User] Oh, my. I just came home. Nobody.

[Assistant] Your folks try to discourage you at that point?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or they knew you were for it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, my. I just came home. Nobody.

[Assistant] Your folks try to discourage you at that point?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or they knew you were for it.

[User] My parents, my mom was a nurse. She's just always accepts what's there. Six kids. You get used to it.

[Assistant] And your siblings? They must have kidded you some.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My parents, my mom was a nurse. She's just always accepts what's there. Six kids. You get used to it.

[Assistant] And your siblings? They must have kidded you some.

[User] Meh, probably. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Most of them were gone, were not home. I think only my younger, well, even my younger sister and brother were probably gone by then so.

[Assistant] You reported to New York then. Do you remember approximately when this was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of them were gone, were not home. I think only my younger, well, even my younger sister and brother were probably gone by then so.

[Assistant] You reported to New York then. Do you remember approximately when this was?

[User] We reported about, I think it was either the second or third week of September of.

[Assistant] 1965.

[User] '65.

[Assistant] Okay. And at that point, your expectation was you were on your way to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We reported about, I think it was either the second or third week of September of.

[Assistant] 1965.

[User] '65.

[Assistant] Okay. And at that point, your expectation was you were on your way to India?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you staged in New York? Was it at a hotel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '65.

[Assistant] Okay. And at that point, your expectation was you were on your way to India?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you staged in New York? Was it at a hotel?

[User] We stayed at one of the hotels in New York. I don't know which one.

[Assistant] That, that, yeah. So it was a hotel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you staged in New York? Was it at a hotel?

[User] We stayed at one of the hotels in New York. I don't know which one.

[Assistant] That, that, yeah. So it was a hotel.

[User] Right. And we were right downtown somewhere.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had a few days to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And we were right downtown somewhere.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had a few days to.

[User] Yes, we, um, when we got there, we found out. Actually we went first to the airport.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had flown from Cleveland to the New York airport, and we were supposed to be taking off from there directly to India. But then we got the news that China was threatening to invade India in the northern areas where our Peace Corps volunteers were going to be sent. So they decided that that would be too unsafe to send, I think there were 300 of us at that time, three different groups going in.

[Assistant] Oh, so you all had gathered at the airport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we, um, when we got there, we found out. Actually we went first to the airport.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had flown from Cleveland to the New York airport, and we were supposed to be taking off from there directly to India. But then we got the news that China was threatening to invade India in the northern areas where our Peace Corps volunteers were going to be sent. So they decided that that would be too unsafe to send, I think there were 300 of us at that time, three different groups going in.

[Assistant] Oh, so you all had gathered at the airport?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was it going to be a charter flight then? Several charter flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was it going to be a charter flight then? Several charter flights?

[User] Two or three flights. And so they were all canceled. And they put us up for a week in New York until they decided where to send the groups.

[Assistant] All 300?

[User] Yes. Oh, big bill.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so there were people who had trained at other places?