[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was another section chief. I moved back into section chief back into the control center section chief area, and stayed there until that branch was abolished. Then I went into the ground software development environment, which was a fairly new environment. It was developing the tools for all of the Space Station software development, which had planned to do software development with tools instead of people and requirements. Basically it was building the software support environment. There we had just that little area. There were two of us doing that, and we had about a little over a million dollars a year to spend in that area. So that was interesting and challenging, because that was in the new era of computing and Internet and really getting automated to develop software rather than doing it manually, the way we had done it before. That was where I was when I retired.

[Assistant] Well, you can literally say that as far as computers were concerned, you had done it all.

[User] I had done it all, from a little Freidan calculator to something much smaller than the Freidan calculator doing more than the computers were when we were going to the Moon. But it was interesting.

[Assistant] Is there a time during that period of evaluation that you found to be the most challenging and rewarding at the same time, of having to turn theory and hopes into something that was reality and a success?

[User] I guess there were three areas maybe that I thought were really challenging and good. One of them was really the launch program requirements, working so closely with the FIDOs, the Retros, and the Guidance Officers. That was a great time. It really was. Everybody was doing something brand-new, and you’d do it, and you’d look at it and say, “Ooh, that’s good” or “Ooh, I want to change it.”\n\n Then the part that I played with the constants and systems parameters in the Apollo time frame. I did that, too, in Gemini, but Gemini didn’t have as many as Apollo. Then the engineering orders and the handle that we got on the costs of the control center was very good. I enjoyed that a lot.

[Assistant] Three very different aspects of it all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In that division, yes, but not on the site. There had been a lot of others on the site. When I first went to Houston, there were eight or ten people that they featured in the paper down there, of "These women make over $10,000 a year." [Laughter] I had a lot of firsts, and I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Let’s hear some of those.

[User] I was first to go on travel.

[Assistant] And you behaved.

[User] And I behaved. I got two trips to New York City for the IBM 1620 computer having some internal problems where it was not compiling our program so that we got the answers that we thought we should get. When I started flying for NASA like that, I wore high heels and hats and gloves, believe it or not. I went to Headquarters one time on travel. I think most of the things that I did first was to get to travel and go down for the post-flight reports for the Cape, got to see most of the launches. In 1983, I got a Manned Flight Awareness Award and got to go see a Shuttle flight. After you leave, there will be billions of things I can think of to tell you, and you won’t be here. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You’ll have to list them for us later.\n\n The launches were pretty spectacular all the way through NASA’s history, and you certainly saw many from each program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was first to go on travel.

[Assistant] And you behaved.

[User] And I behaved. I got two trips to New York City for the IBM 1620 computer having some internal problems where it was not compiling our program so that we got the answers that we thought we should get. When I started flying for NASA like that, I wore high heels and hats and gloves, believe it or not. I went to Headquarters one time on travel. I think most of the things that I did first was to get to travel and go down for the post-flight reports for the Cape, got to see most of the launches. In 1983, I got a Manned Flight Awareness Award and got to go see a Shuttle flight. After you leave, there will be billions of things I can think of to tell you, and you won’t be here. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You’ll have to list them for us later.\n\n The launches were pretty spectacular all the way through NASA’s history, and you certainly saw many from each program.

[User] I think I saw everything except the Saturn IB.

[Assistant] What was it like to see what you had done on paper turn into reality for everyone to watch? Because you had a part of what was going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I behaved. I got two trips to New York City for the IBM 1620 computer having some internal problems where it was not compiling our program so that we got the answers that we thought we should get. When I started flying for NASA like that, I wore high heels and hats and gloves, believe it or not. I went to Headquarters one time on travel. I think most of the things that I did first was to get to travel and go down for the post-flight reports for the Cape, got to see most of the launches. In 1983, I got a Manned Flight Awareness Award and got to go see a Shuttle flight. After you leave, there will be billions of things I can think of to tell you, and you won’t be here. [Laughter]

[Assistant] You’ll have to list them for us later.\n\n The launches were pretty spectacular all the way through NASA’s history, and you certainly saw many from each program.

[User] I think I saw everything except the Saturn IB.

[Assistant] What was it like to see what you had done on paper turn into reality for everyone to watch? Because you had a part of what was going on.

[User] Awesome. It really was. It was just indescribable.

[Assistant] The people that were around you, they were all part of different teams that had come together, pretty much individuals like you that were putting their talents together to make that happen. Then yet when the launch was over, everybody went back to prepare for the next time. Was there ever a start and finish, or was it just one continual trip from the day that you started on your road?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I saw everything except the Saturn IB.

[Assistant] What was it like to see what you had done on paper turn into reality for everyone to watch? Because you had a part of what was going on.

[User] Awesome. It really was. It was just indescribable.

[Assistant] The people that were around you, they were all part of different teams that had come together, pretty much individuals like you that were putting their talents together to make that happen. Then yet when the launch was over, everybody went back to prepare for the next time. Was there ever a start and finish, or was it just one continual trip from the day that you started on your road?

[User] There was never a stop and finish. Everything was always overlapping. In fact, sometimes we were working two or three missions at the same time. You’d just to start over, take your mind off one and start on another. But for things like Mercury, they were basically all the same. You were going around the Earth with basically the inclination, and you could work on two or three things at one time and not have to reset. But once you got into the Shuttle, you had to reset based on what payloads were going and things like that. Everything was always overlapping. You never finished a job and started another one. You were always working on one and starting another one at the same time.

[Assistant] That’s quite a talent in itself, keeping it all straight, but yet, as you said, overlapping. You were promoted to a full engineer during the Gemini Program, which at the time that NASA began, there weren’t many, if hardly a few, women engineers. Can you tell us how that promotion occurred, and what was the result of that? How did that affect the rest of your career, being moved into more of a technical position? Because you were a math aide.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Awesome. It really was. It was just indescribable.

[Assistant] The people that were around you, they were all part of different teams that had come together, pretty much individuals like you that were putting their talents together to make that happen. Then yet when the launch was over, everybody went back to prepare for the next time. Was there ever a start and finish, or was it just one continual trip from the day that you started on your road?

[User] There was never a stop and finish. Everything was always overlapping. In fact, sometimes we were working two or three missions at the same time. You’d just to start over, take your mind off one and start on another. But for things like Mercury, they were basically all the same. You were going around the Earth with basically the inclination, and you could work on two or three things at one time and not have to reset. But once you got into the Shuttle, you had to reset based on what payloads were going and things like that. Everything was always overlapping. You never finished a job and started another one. You were always working on one and starting another one at the same time.

[Assistant] That’s quite a talent in itself, keeping it all straight, but yet, as you said, overlapping. You were promoted to a full engineer during the Gemini Program, which at the time that NASA began, there weren’t many, if hardly a few, women engineers. Can you tell us how that promotion occurred, and what was the result of that? How did that affect the rest of your career, being moved into more of a technical position? Because you were a math aide.

[User] No. I was never a math aide.

[Assistant] You were hired into NASA as an engineer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was never a math aide.

[Assistant] You were hired into NASA as an engineer?

[User] I was hired in, I think they called us—there weren’t ASTs [aerospace technicians] at the time I hired in. Numerical analysis engineer, I think, is what I was.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I was never a math aide.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, that clears that up then. Then you went from the numerical engineer. Did it change from a different status of an engineer at some point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was hired in, I think they called us—there weren’t ASTs [aerospace technicians] at the time I hired in. Numerical analysis engineer, I think, is what I was.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I was never a math aide.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, that clears that up then. Then you went from the numerical engineer. Did it change from a different status of an engineer at some point?

[User] Well, at one point they changed our classifications to aerospace technologists. Then they gave our classification, and they did that so that we wouldn’t be equal to civil service titles, so they could give—I think this is the reason they did it—so they could give NASA a higher grade rating than they did civil service people in other agencies. I think that’s why it happened. You may want to cut that. [Laughter] They did give NASA different classifications than they did other government agencies. But I had my master’s in math when I went to work, and I did work very closely with the trajectory-type work rather than just a math aide-type work.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I’m glad we have that straightened out because I think some of our earlier research wasn’t clear on what we were able to find. So that does that.\n\n Missions. Any particular that you found to be more challenging than others as they were building from one program to another? You said that Mercury kind of went round and round, but then, of course, in Gemini you had two men, and you were having to make modifications here and there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was never a math aide.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, that clears that up then. Then you went from the numerical engineer. Did it change from a different status of an engineer at some point?

[User] Well, at one point they changed our classifications to aerospace technologists. Then they gave our classification, and they did that so that we wouldn’t be equal to civil service titles, so they could give—I think this is the reason they did it—so they could give NASA a higher grade rating than they did civil service people in other agencies. I think that’s why it happened. You may want to cut that. [Laughter] They did give NASA different classifications than they did other government agencies. But I had my master’s in math when I went to work, and I did work very closely with the trajectory-type work rather than just a math aide-type work.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I’m glad we have that straightened out because I think some of our earlier research wasn’t clear on what we were able to find. So that does that.\n\n Missions. Any particular that you found to be more challenging than others as they were building from one program to another? You said that Mercury kind of went round and round, but then, of course, in Gemini you had two men, and you were having to make modifications here and there.

[User] I guess Gemini VI was our real Gemini challenge, getting ready for another launch so soon afterwards and basically doing two missions and all of the constants and parameters and everything for two at the same time. That was probably the hardest one we did. Worked hard on that. That was a challenge in every respect for everybody, I think.

[Assistant] As you moved into Apollo, so much was going so quickly in order to meet the mandate from President [John F.] Kennedy. Apollo 8 all of a sudden now was going to put men closer to the Moon than we had ever been before. Were you involved in that as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at one point they changed our classifications to aerospace technologists. Then they gave our classification, and they did that so that we wouldn’t be equal to civil service titles, so they could give—I think this is the reason they did it—so they could give NASA a higher grade rating than they did civil service people in other agencies. I think that’s why it happened. You may want to cut that. [Laughter] They did give NASA different classifications than they did other government agencies. But I had my master’s in math when I went to work, and I did work very closely with the trajectory-type work rather than just a math aide-type work.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I’m glad we have that straightened out because I think some of our earlier research wasn’t clear on what we were able to find. So that does that.\n\n Missions. Any particular that you found to be more challenging than others as they were building from one program to another? You said that Mercury kind of went round and round, but then, of course, in Gemini you had two men, and you were having to make modifications here and there.

[User] I guess Gemini VI was our real Gemini challenge, getting ready for another launch so soon afterwards and basically doing two missions and all of the constants and parameters and everything for two at the same time. That was probably the hardest one we did. Worked hard on that. That was a challenge in every respect for everybody, I think.

[Assistant] As you moved into Apollo, so much was going so quickly in order to meet the mandate from President [John F.] Kennedy. Apollo 8 all of a sudden now was going to put men closer to the Moon than we had ever been before. Were you involved in that as well?

[User] We just worked longer hours, harder and longer hours. If the same number of people did the same job, but we had to work more hours.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you heard that all of a sudden we were moving that few steps closer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked. It worked. It did work.

[Assistant] So you had goals. I mean, so—

[User] Yes, oh, yes.

[Assistant] And it worked out.\n\n Speaking of goals, one of the major goals at that time was to put a man on the Moon and to return him safely to Earth. Tell us about your part in that. Where were you when that all happened?

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort program requirements and the system parameters and the constants for the whole mission, for every phase of the program, for the launch, the launch aborts, the orbits, the rendezvous and everything.

[Assistant] Just doing your regular job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, oh, yes.

[Assistant] And it worked out.\n\n Speaking of goals, one of the major goals at that time was to put a man on the Moon and to return him safely to Earth. Tell us about your part in that. Where were you when that all happened?

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort program requirements and the system parameters and the constants for the whole mission, for every phase of the program, for the launch, the launch aborts, the orbits, the rendezvous and everything.

[Assistant] Just doing your regular job.

[User] Just doing my regular job.

[Assistant] Were you on site when they landed? In mission control, the room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort program requirements and the system parameters and the constants for the whole mission, for every phase of the program, for the launch, the launch aborts, the orbits, the rendezvous and everything.

[Assistant] Just doing your regular job.

[User] Just doing my regular job.

[Assistant] Were you on site when they landed? In mission control, the room?

[User] No. I was always in the control center for the launches, because that was my program. I wanted to see how it worked and everything. Then, of course, I always had to do the reports, the launch reports right afterwards. So I would stay there and gather the data and do my little post-flight analysis for the data. But I was not ever in the control center during a mission, per se. Sometimes they called me and asked me about specific things about the programs, but I was never a pure flight controller.

[Assistant] And you mentioned before, that was something that you really didn’t want to move into, or did you have desires to move into as a flight controller?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just doing my regular job.

[Assistant] Were you on site when they landed? In mission control, the room?

[User] No. I was always in the control center for the launches, because that was my program. I wanted to see how it worked and everything. Then, of course, I always had to do the reports, the launch reports right afterwards. So I would stay there and gather the data and do my little post-flight analysis for the data. But I was not ever in the control center during a mission, per se. Sometimes they called me and asked me about specific things about the programs, but I was never a pure flight controller.

[Assistant] And you mentioned before, that was something that you really didn’t want to move into, or did you have desires to move into as a flight controller?

[User] I sort of wanted to, but I didn’t want to be that tied down, I guess. Not tied down. The best way is, Gene Kranz would have owned me. [Laughter] I mean, he would have owned me. Greatest man to work for. He inspired me. He asked me to do a job for him, I had never done that job before in my life, and I learned it in two and half days and started doing it for him. He could make anybody produce 140 percent. Everybody wanted to work him. You wanted to do the best job in the world for him. I had several bosses like that, but Gene was really—I don’t know what he had. I can’t put my finger on it, but whatever you did for Gene Kranz, you wanted to do the best in the world.

[Assistant] So many people who know nothing about the space industry know him, of course, from the movie Apollo 13 and how he was so instrumental in saving Apollo 13. Did you have a role in that mission as well that was different? Did you have anything extra to do as part of that?\n\n Shirley


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was always in the control center for the launches, because that was my program. I wanted to see how it worked and everything. Then, of course, I always had to do the reports, the launch reports right afterwards. So I would stay there and gather the data and do my little post-flight analysis for the data. But I was not ever in the control center during a mission, per se. Sometimes they called me and asked me about specific things about the programs, but I was never a pure flight controller.

[Assistant] And you mentioned before, that was something that you really didn’t want to move into, or did you have desires to move into as a flight controller?

[User] I sort of wanted to, but I didn’t want to be that tied down, I guess. Not tied down. The best way is, Gene Kranz would have owned me. [Laughter] I mean, he would have owned me. Greatest man to work for. He inspired me. He asked me to do a job for him, I had never done that job before in my life, and I learned it in two and half days and started doing it for him. He could make anybody produce 140 percent. Everybody wanted to work him. You wanted to do the best job in the world for him. I had several bosses like that, but Gene was really—I don’t know what he had. I can’t put my finger on it, but whatever you did for Gene Kranz, you wanted to do the best in the world.

[Assistant] So many people who know nothing about the space industry know him, of course, from the movie Apollo 13 and how he was so instrumental in saving Apollo 13. Did you have a role in that mission as well that was different? Did you have anything extra to do as part of that?\n\n Shirley

[User] No.

[Assistant] Just sit and wait like everybody else to make sure that they go in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sort of wanted to, but I didn’t want to be that tied down, I guess. Not tied down. The best way is, Gene Kranz would have owned me. [Laughter] I mean, he would have owned me. Greatest man to work for. He inspired me. He asked me to do a job for him, I had never done that job before in my life, and I learned it in two and half days and started doing it for him. He could make anybody produce 140 percent. Everybody wanted to work him. You wanted to do the best job in the world for him. I had several bosses like that, but Gene was really—I don’t know what he had. I can’t put my finger on it, but whatever you did for Gene Kranz, you wanted to do the best in the world.

[Assistant] So many people who know nothing about the space industry know him, of course, from the movie Apollo 13 and how he was so instrumental in saving Apollo 13. Did you have a role in that mission as well that was different? Did you have anything extra to do as part of that?\n\n Shirley

[User] No.

[Assistant] Just sit and wait like everybody else to make sure that they go in?

[User] We gave them the best programs in the world and let them take control of operations. We did a good job, I think, on providing flight control good hardware and software. They did a great job on using that hardware and software to operate the missions, but I was always in the support role.

[Assistant] And the Skylab came, and you mentioned that you put a nine-month stint, probably something very different than you had ever done before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You didn’t get any of the teleprinter messages? I don’t know where they stored those, but some of those messages were great.

[Assistant] I have to look for them. Is there an example that we should look for?

[User] Some of the Christmas messages. They were cute. Some of them were cute and some of them weren’t. Very innovative.

[Assistant] That will give us a challenge. We’ll have to look for those and see what we can find.\n\n Shirley

[User] See if you can find any of the teleprinter messages.

[Assistant] Okay. We'll do that. The last program with Apollo was the joint effort that was done with the Russians. Were you involved at all with ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of the Christmas messages. They were cute. Some of them were cute and some of them weren’t. Very innovative.

[Assistant] That will give us a challenge. We’ll have to look for those and see what we can find.\n\n Shirley

[User] See if you can find any of the teleprinter messages.

[Assistant] Okay. We'll do that. The last program with Apollo was the joint effort that was done with the Russians. Were you involved at all with ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project]?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Same capacity?\n\n Shirley


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See if you can find any of the teleprinter messages.

[Assistant] Okay. We'll do that. The last program with Apollo was the joint effort that was done with the Russians. Were you involved at all with ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project]?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Same capacity?\n\n Shirley

[User] In the same capacity as the other missions.

[Assistant] Did you have to do anything different because you were working with the Russian spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Same capacity?\n\n Shirley

[User] In the same capacity as the other missions.

[Assistant] Did you have to do anything different because you were working with the Russian spacecraft?

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort. I wasn't doing rendezvous and docking and that. So the only thing I had to do for that was to make sure I got that set of system parameters in the program correctly. I just say I did the constants and system parameters, but that was a very important job because that had to be accurate, and you had to take somebody who cared and played tennis almost, proofreading. There was a lot of proofreading in that job.

[Assistant] And lots of pages of information, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the same capacity as the other missions.

[Assistant] Did you have to do anything different because you were working with the Russian spacecraft?

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort. I wasn't doing rendezvous and docking and that. So the only thing I had to do for that was to make sure I got that set of system parameters in the program correctly. I just say I did the constants and system parameters, but that was a very important job because that had to be accurate, and you had to take somebody who cared and played tennis almost, proofreading. There was a lot of proofreading in that job.

[Assistant] And lots of pages of information, isn’t it?

[User] Lots of pages.

[Assistant] When you passed that on, after you knew it was accurate and it was ready for someone else to review, what could you possibly tell them in a synopsis, or was their responsibility to take all that information and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was doing launch and launch abort. I wasn't doing rendezvous and docking and that. So the only thing I had to do for that was to make sure I got that set of system parameters in the program correctly. I just say I did the constants and system parameters, but that was a very important job because that had to be accurate, and you had to take somebody who cared and played tennis almost, proofreading. There was a lot of proofreading in that job.

[Assistant] And lots of pages of information, isn’t it?

[User] Lots of pages.

[Assistant] When you passed that on, after you knew it was accurate and it was ready for someone else to review, what could you possibly tell them in a synopsis, or was their responsibility to take all that information and—

[User] Well, I gave them the exact cell in the program, the exact name of the system parameter, the exact value, and a verbal explanation of what the numbers were. Then when they gave it back to me to make sure it was correct, they gave it back to me with the same name on that parameter. Every system parameter had a name, and every letter in the name meant something. Like M, mission program number, it was six letters, and every one of those letters meant something. It had to go into exactly the same place in the program so that when somebody came and got that system parameter, they called it the same thing every time they went after it. I sat there and proofread those things. That was the only way to make sure they were correct. Some of them were fifteen digits long.

[Assistant] Hours of your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lots of pages.

[Assistant] When you passed that on, after you knew it was accurate and it was ready for someone else to review, what could you possibly tell them in a synopsis, or was their responsibility to take all that information and—

[User] Well, I gave them the exact cell in the program, the exact name of the system parameter, the exact value, and a verbal explanation of what the numbers were. Then when they gave it back to me to make sure it was correct, they gave it back to me with the same name on that parameter. Every system parameter had a name, and every letter in the name meant something. Like M, mission program number, it was six letters, and every one of those letters meant something. It had to go into exactly the same place in the program so that when somebody came and got that system parameter, they called it the same thing every time they went after it. I sat there and proofread those things. That was the only way to make sure they were correct. Some of them were fifteen digits long.

[Assistant] Hours of your time.

[User] Hours, hours, hours.

[Assistant] Did you bring your work home and review, or did you stay on site and go through—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I gave them the exact cell in the program, the exact name of the system parameter, the exact value, and a verbal explanation of what the numbers were. Then when they gave it back to me to make sure it was correct, they gave it back to me with the same name on that parameter. Every system parameter had a name, and every letter in the name meant something. Like M, mission program number, it was six letters, and every one of those letters meant something. It had to go into exactly the same place in the program so that when somebody came and got that system parameter, they called it the same thing every time they went after it. I sat there and proofread those things. That was the only way to make sure they were correct. Some of them were fifteen digits long.

[Assistant] Hours of your time.

[User] Hours, hours, hours.

[Assistant] Did you bring your work home and review, or did you stay on site and go through—

[User] Kirby and I both did a lot of work at home. Something like that you could bring it home and proofread it at home.\n\n Speaking of working at home, we had some DoD [Department of Defense] joint missions at one time. The guy who was in charge of DoD died, and nobody, nobody did his work. When we came, this was when I was doing the engineering orders and the costs control of the control center, nobody knew what his budget was last time versus what it should be this time, to deal with DoD. I probably worked about three nights until 4 a.m. in the morning getting ready for that program operating plan, based on what he had last time versus what he needed this time. That was a very difficult task, to do things like that without the person there.

[Assistant] Quite a challenge, no matter what you picked up. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hours, hours, hours.

[Assistant] Did you bring your work home and review, or did you stay on site and go through—

[User] Kirby and I both did a lot of work at home. Something like that you could bring it home and proofread it at home.\n\n Speaking of working at home, we had some DoD [Department of Defense] joint missions at one time. The guy who was in charge of DoD died, and nobody, nobody did his work. When we came, this was when I was doing the engineering orders and the costs control of the control center, nobody knew what his budget was last time versus what it should be this time, to deal with DoD. I probably worked about three nights until 4 a.m. in the morning getting ready for that program operating plan, based on what he had last time versus what he needed this time. That was a very difficult task, to do things like that without the person there.

[Assistant] Quite a challenge, no matter what you picked up. [Laughter]

[User] Program operating plans were certainly a challenge for the control center.

[Assistant] We're going to take a break for just a second. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n Having such a career with NASA, as you mentioned, you have had so many challenges and you had so many tasks, and life was almost never-ending from day to day as you accomplished one thing to another. Do you have any regrets of not becoming that teacher and filling out that application and moving on to Langley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It hurt deeply when we had these, but there was never any doubt that we weren’t going to continue. I saw no reason whatsoever to stop just because we had accidents. It was a deep personal tragedy, but the mission had to go on.

[Assistant] Well, your certainly did, from a youngster in North Carolina. You mentioned that math was just fine. Even through grade school, as a child did you enjoy doing math?

[User] As far as I know, I’ve always enjoyed it. I can’t remember when I didn’t enjoy it. One funny thing about it is I think the first time that we went to one of my high school reunions, there was one of my classmates there, and he said, “She was the best thing in math I’ve ever seen,” or something similar to that. “Is she still good in math?” I don’t know that I’m still good at math, but it was always easy for me. It really was.\n\n The only other thing I can think of that I might would have enjoyed majoring in would have been chemistry. If I had done that, though, I would have had a totally different life. I would have gone to work for DuPont. I would have never met my husband that I have today. It would have been just a totally different life, and I wouldn’t have been involved with the space program. So I’m glad I majored in math.

[Assistant] We are, too, because your contributions have been many and I think they’ll live on in history.

[User] I hope somebody else recognized them. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
I think every time those accuracies were proofed, they recognized. Kevin, do you have anything that you’d like to add?

Yes, I did have a couple of questions. You mentioned once or twice your work with the gentlemen who were in the Trench. I wonder if you have any particular stories you’d like to share about any of these guys. There were some colorful characters that came out of there, very different personalities, men like Glynn [S.] Lunney or John [S.] Llewellyn [Jr.], or the ones that you had already mentioned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were very different because I did the system parameters for all phases of the missions. I did those for every phase, so I had to know a lot about the other requirements in order to do the system parameters for those phases. I just didn’t have write the requirements and check out the software and do the subsystems tests and everything. But I did know a lot about the program overall. I had to in order to do the system parameters, to know that the systems parameters were needed for those phases.

[Assistant] In that vein, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about Apollo 8, because that decision was obviously quite a milestone, to send the second Apollo mission around the Moon, but it was kind of kept under wraps for a little while. Did you remember having any work on that type of lunar mission before it was actually revealed that NASA was going to send this mission to the moon?

[User] Yes, we were working on getting all the programs ready so that they could talk to each other and my part was only the numbers for those phases. All these programs had to hand over to the next phase. Like the launch program had to hand over to the orbit program. That was a pretty big phase-over, sort of like changing shifts. You had to make sure you gave the next program all the data it needed to continue, so we were working on those.

[Assistant] Did you know then what that was going to be for specifically, that that mission was going to be doing that? You were in on the secret, in other words?

[User] Yes. You had to be. If you were doing mission planning, you have to be in on the missions. You have to be in on what the mission is going to be if you are doing mission planning. So, we knew a lot of all of that, like when the re-boost was for the Skylab and things like that. We were in on it.

[Assistant] A little bit earlier, you talked about the Gemini 7/6 mission. That was a mission that occurred because when VI first tried to launch, there was essentially an abort on the pad. Do you remember that event specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were working on getting all the programs ready so that they could talk to each other and my part was only the numbers for those phases. All these programs had to hand over to the next phase. Like the launch program had to hand over to the orbit program. That was a pretty big phase-over, sort of like changing shifts. You had to make sure you gave the next program all the data it needed to continue, so we were working on those.

[Assistant] Did you know then what that was going to be for specifically, that that mission was going to be doing that? You were in on the secret, in other words?

[User] Yes. You had to be. If you were doing mission planning, you have to be in on the missions. You have to be in on what the mission is going to be if you are doing mission planning. So, we knew a lot of all of that, like when the re-boost was for the Skylab and things like that. We were in on it.

[Assistant] A little bit earlier, you talked about the Gemini 7/6 mission. That was a mission that occurred because when VI first tried to launch, there was essentially an abort on the pad. Do you remember that event specifically?

[User] I could not take you through it in detail. I could probably sit down and think about it for a day and figure out what—

[Assistant] I just didn’t know if you had any specifics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. You had to be. If you were doing mission planning, you have to be in on the missions. You have to be in on what the mission is going to be if you are doing mission planning. So, we knew a lot of all of that, like when the re-boost was for the Skylab and things like that. We were in on it.

[Assistant] A little bit earlier, you talked about the Gemini 7/6 mission. That was a mission that occurred because when VI first tried to launch, there was essentially an abort on the pad. Do you remember that event specifically?

[User] I could not take you through it in detail. I could probably sit down and think about it for a day and figure out what—

[Assistant] I just didn’t know if you had any specifics.

[User] No, I didn’t. Not being in the control center, that’s not the thing you remember. How hard you had to work to get the programs turned around in order to launch and totally change the configuration of the computers is the type of things I remember rather than the actual mission phases.

[Assistant]
Well, that makes sense, given your particular experience.\n\n Well, that’s all I had for this one.

Then we thank you and appreciate all that you've had to offer. What a wonderful insight into couple of evolutions all by themselves in the middle of everything else that was going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Is that component of tourism something that would perpetuate itself?

[User] Well it was doing phenomenally well. We sold it five years ago. We, meaning the nonprofits to think of five years ago, privatized it because it was become such a business that John and I were trying to run from here and they were doing very well. They invested a lot of money in the in the Finca. And they were going to be full all this past summer until the political upheaval, upheaval happened in the summer of 2018. And they are really in dire straits now. Tourism went to zero.

[Assistant] So did Kenya after the bombings.

[User] Yeah, tourism went to zero. And all the merchants guesthouse families in the town of San Ramon. And the artists are all suffering from a lack of people coming. We're going to try we're recruiting two groups of adults for this spring 2020, but we don't think it's possible to take high school groups, which is really one of the main groups we want to get down there, as is as high school groups and groups that have gone down. Many groups, I don't know how many, 25, 30 groups of high school students, often with a teacher. I mean, the reports we get back from those groups are just astounding. And many of those kids go on to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Have there been some security issues recently that have put a damper on it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it was doing phenomenally well. We sold it five years ago. We, meaning the nonprofits to think of five years ago, privatized it because it was become such a business that John and I were trying to run from here and they were doing very well. They invested a lot of money in the in the Finca. And they were going to be full all this past summer until the political upheaval, upheaval happened in the summer of 2018. And they are really in dire straits now. Tourism went to zero.

[Assistant] So did Kenya after the bombings.

[User] Yeah, tourism went to zero. And all the merchants guesthouse families in the town of San Ramon. And the artists are all suffering from a lack of people coming. We're going to try we're recruiting two groups of adults for this spring 2020, but we don't think it's possible to take high school groups, which is really one of the main groups we want to get down there, as is as high school groups and groups that have gone down. Many groups, I don't know how many, 25, 30 groups of high school students, often with a teacher. I mean, the reports we get back from those groups are just astounding. And many of those kids go on to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Have there been some security issues recently that have put a damper on it?

[User] Well there was in the spring of 2018 and early summer. But since that time, there really hasn't been any issues for foreigners. I mean, there have been roadblocks and, you know, passport checks and things. But it's just, you know, the bad publicity that gets out. And, of course, the State Department has warnings out. So we hope we can get 20 to 30 people to go this year and to resume as soon as we can. The high school groups,

[Assistant] Is this the group going down in February?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, tourism went to zero. And all the merchants guesthouse families in the town of San Ramon. And the artists are all suffering from a lack of people coming. We're going to try we're recruiting two groups of adults for this spring 2020, but we don't think it's possible to take high school groups, which is really one of the main groups we want to get down there, as is as high school groups and groups that have gone down. Many groups, I don't know how many, 25, 30 groups of high school students, often with a teacher. I mean, the reports we get back from those groups are just astounding. And many of those kids go on to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Have there been some security issues recently that have put a damper on it?

[User] Well there was in the spring of 2018 and early summer. But since that time, there really hasn't been any issues for foreigners. I mean, there have been roadblocks and, you know, passport checks and things. But it's just, you know, the bad publicity that gets out. And, of course, the State Department has warnings out. So we hope we can get 20 to 30 people to go this year and to resume as soon as we can. The high school groups,

[Assistant] Is this the group going down in February?

[User] There are two groups to February, you know. Yeah, and we're recruiting for them right now. Yeah. Yeah, we hope that I don't get politically incorrect. There's no Peace Corps Peace Corps pulled out immediately, pretty much immediately, because there were there were paramilitaries and extrajudicial killings and riots and blockades going on around the country and Peace Corps pretty much within a week. Pull everybody back to the capital and take them out of the. Yeah, very sad. Very sad.

[Assistant] And they're not back in yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well there was in the spring of 2018 and early summer. But since that time, there really hasn't been any issues for foreigners. I mean, there have been roadblocks and, you know, passport checks and things. But it's just, you know, the bad publicity that gets out. And, of course, the State Department has warnings out. So we hope we can get 20 to 30 people to go this year and to resume as soon as we can. The high school groups,

[Assistant] Is this the group going down in February?

[User] There are two groups to February, you know. Yeah, and we're recruiting for them right now. Yeah. Yeah, we hope that I don't get politically incorrect. There's no Peace Corps Peace Corps pulled out immediately, pretty much immediately, because there were there were paramilitaries and extrajudicial killings and riots and blockades going on around the country and Peace Corps pretty much within a week. Pull everybody back to the capital and take them out of the. Yeah, very sad. Very sad.

[Assistant] And they're not back in yet?

[User] No, there and there's I don't see there's just not even a line of sight for Peace Corps going back.

[Assistant] So Kenya has, the Peace Corps is going back this next year. Which is good to hear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are two groups to February, you know. Yeah, and we're recruiting for them right now. Yeah. Yeah, we hope that I don't get politically incorrect. There's no Peace Corps Peace Corps pulled out immediately, pretty much immediately, because there were there were paramilitaries and extrajudicial killings and riots and blockades going on around the country and Peace Corps pretty much within a week. Pull everybody back to the capital and take them out of the. Yeah, very sad. Very sad.

[Assistant] And they're not back in yet?

[User] No, there and there's I don't see there's just not even a line of sight for Peace Corps going back.

[Assistant] So Kenya has, the Peace Corps is going back this next year. Which is good to hear.

[User] Well, unfortunately, the government in Nicaragua is totally corrupt. And it's a real shame. They were one of the governments that had made most progress on that U.N. Millennium Goals reducing poverty. And but then they obviously made the decision that they were going to hold elections, but they were never going to lose another election.

[Assistant] Has corruption been a major challenge for your program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there and there's I don't see there's just not even a line of sight for Peace Corps going back.

[Assistant] So Kenya has, the Peace Corps is going back this next year. Which is good to hear.

[User] Well, unfortunately, the government in Nicaragua is totally corrupt. And it's a real shame. They were one of the governments that had made most progress on that U.N. Millennium Goals reducing poverty. And but then they obviously made the decision that they were going to hold elections, but they were never going to lose another election.

[Assistant] Has corruption been a major challenge for your program?

[User] No, not really. Except we did have problems with people challenging the land titles we had from the former owners of some of the properties who during that after the revolution had properties confiscated. But we had we were on solid ground, but we did have to go all the way to the Supreme Court and spend a significant amount of money defending our titles. That was very stressful for all of us. But the Senate, the political corruption means that. We don't see that they're going to allow any significant candidate to run and there's 30 to 40,000, 50,000 Nicaraguans in exile in Costa Rica, political exile. So it's a very sad situation for a country of nine million.

[Assistant] You do expect a fairly large group to go back in the next tourism, ecotourism trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, unfortunately, the government in Nicaragua is totally corrupt. And it's a real shame. They were one of the governments that had made most progress on that U.N. Millennium Goals reducing poverty. And but then they obviously made the decision that they were going to hold elections, but they were never going to lose another election.

[Assistant] Has corruption been a major challenge for your program?

[User] No, not really. Except we did have problems with people challenging the land titles we had from the former owners of some of the properties who during that after the revolution had properties confiscated. But we had we were on solid ground, but we did have to go all the way to the Supreme Court and spend a significant amount of money defending our titles. That was very stressful for all of us. But the Senate, the political corruption means that. We don't see that they're going to allow any significant candidate to run and there's 30 to 40,000, 50,000 Nicaraguans in exile in Costa Rica, political exile. So it's a very sad situation for a country of nine million.

[Assistant] You do expect a fairly large group to go back in the next tourism, ecotourism trips?

[User] Trips well to two groups of 10 to 15 people. But that's, we were doing 60 to 120 people.

[Assistant] Oh really. So there was quite a cut back on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. Except we did have problems with people challenging the land titles we had from the former owners of some of the properties who during that after the revolution had properties confiscated. But we had we were on solid ground, but we did have to go all the way to the Supreme Court and spend a significant amount of money defending our titles. That was very stressful for all of us. But the Senate, the political corruption means that. We don't see that they're going to allow any significant candidate to run and there's 30 to 40,000, 50,000 Nicaraguans in exile in Costa Rica, political exile. So it's a very sad situation for a country of nine million.

[Assistant] You do expect a fairly large group to go back in the next tourism, ecotourism trips?

[User] Trips well to two groups of 10 to 15 people. But that's, we were doing 60 to 120 people.

[Assistant] Oh really. So there was quite a cut back on that?

[User] Yeah, which affects our incomes. And it's very hard to get a lot of our donations were coming from people that made those trips so are not or don't have an income we used to have. So we're trying to survive this period and see what happens.

[Assistant] A great program employing people. Yeah, connecting American tourism with yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Trips well to two groups of 10 to 15 people. But that's, we were doing 60 to 120 people.

[Assistant] Oh really. So there was quite a cut back on that?

[User] Yeah, which affects our incomes. And it's very hard to get a lot of our donations were coming from people that made those trips so are not or don't have an income we used to have. So we're trying to survive this period and see what happens.

[Assistant] A great program employing people. Yeah, connecting American tourism with yeah, yeah.

[User] So that's thank you for the opportunity, Bob, to speak about this.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Richard. And as I've indicated, this will be this interview will be forwarded on to the Kennedy Library at Harvard, and it will be eventually part of the archive, the Peace Corps Oral History Archive for future generations of researchers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, which affects our incomes. And it's very hard to get a lot of our donations were coming from people that made those trips so are not or don't have an income we used to have. So we're trying to survive this period and see what happens.

[Assistant] A great program employing people. Yeah, connecting American tourism with yeah, yeah.

[User] So that's thank you for the opportunity, Bob, to speak about this.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Richard. And as I've indicated, this will be this interview will be forwarded on to the Kennedy Library at Harvard, and it will be eventually part of the archive, the Peace Corps Oral History Archive for future generations of researchers.

[User] Yeah, good.

[Assistant] Well, thank you again. It's been great to meet with you and your lovely wife, Lonna, and very well I wish you well with your with your ongoing Nicaragua program and maybe a couple of return trips to Tunisia as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. 1964.

[Assistant] So let's go back to a year before you joined the Peace Corps.

[User] I happened to be a teacher. I taught three years before I went in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I was teaching an experimental program for high school dropouts in Flint, Michigan, called the Personalized Curriculum Program. And I was realizing that teaching students, at least those students I had, I was not very well prepared to teach them. Massive problems. And so I realized I was dealing with an unusual population at least in traditional school sense. It was a great experience, and I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] What degree did you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I happened to be a teacher. I taught three years before I went in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I was teaching an experimental program for high school dropouts in Flint, Michigan, called the Personalized Curriculum Program. And I was realizing that teaching students, at least those students I had, I was not very well prepared to teach them. Massive problems. And so I realized I was dealing with an unusual population at least in traditional school sense. It was a great experience, and I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] What degree did you have?

[User] I was completing, I had a bachelor's degree in history and government from Beloit College.

[Assistant] What year did you graduate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was teaching an experimental program for high school dropouts in Flint, Michigan, called the Personalized Curriculum Program. And I was realizing that teaching students, at least those students I had, I was not very well prepared to teach them. Massive problems. And so I realized I was dealing with an unusual population at least in traditional school sense. It was a great experience, and I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] What degree did you have?

[User] I was completing, I had a bachelor's degree in history and government from Beloit College.

[Assistant] What year did you graduate?

[User] 1957. And I was completing a master's degree, going to summer schools at Western Michigan in teaching of social studies.

[Assistant] Right. And that, you were in the middle of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was completing, I had a bachelor's degree in history and government from Beloit College.

[Assistant] What year did you graduate?

[User] 1957. And I was completing a master's degree, going to summer schools at Western Michigan in teaching of social studies.

[Assistant] Right. And that, you were in the middle of that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During your third year of teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1957. And I was completing a master's degree, going to summer schools at Western Michigan in teaching of social studies.

[Assistant] Right. And that, you were in the middle of that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During your third year of teaching?

[User] Yes. And then I completed the degree before I went into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. Where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During your third year of teaching?

[User] Yes. And then I completed the degree before I went into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. Where did you grow up?

[User] In Three Rivers, Michigan, which is about 25 miles south of Kalamazoo.

[Assistant] You went to high school there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And then I completed the degree before I went into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay. Um. Where did you grow up?

[User] In Three Rivers, Michigan, which is about 25 miles south of Kalamazoo.

[Assistant] You went to high school there?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] In high school, did you do any kind of volunteering work or travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] In high school, did you do any kind of volunteering work or travel?

[User] Well, my parents did the best they could on very limited budgets to try to get us to travel some. Like I remember my dad taking us to Niagara Falls when I was five or six. And then he knew that with a war breaking out, he made a quick trip to Alabama to see his sister and brother-in-law in 1942, just before gas rationing. But we saw the Smoky Mountains.

[Assistant] Siblings?

[User] I'm the youngest of four. I have two sisters and a brother so, and that's our order. Girl, girl, boy, boy.

[Assistant] Okay. And you went straight from high school to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my parents did the best they could on very limited budgets to try to get us to travel some. Like I remember my dad taking us to Niagara Falls when I was five or six. And then he knew that with a war breaking out, he made a quick trip to Alabama to see his sister and brother-in-law in 1942, just before gas rationing. But we saw the Smoky Mountains.

[Assistant] Siblings?

[User] I'm the youngest of four. I have two sisters and a brother so, and that's our order. Girl, girl, boy, boy.

[Assistant] Okay. And you went straight from high school to college?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] And at the point you're entering college, what was sort of your career goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm the youngest of four. I have two sisters and a brother so, and that's our order. Girl, girl, boy, boy.

[Assistant] Okay. And you went straight from high school to college?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] And at the point you're entering college, what was sort of your career goal?

[User] Well, I, my dad had been active in politics. At that point, never was successful in elective office, but was a delegate to the Republican convention in 1952 and was a Taft delegate, conservative Republican family. And so I thought I would, since I had majored in government and history, I thought I would have a career in politics.

[Assistant] During the four years in college, [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I, my dad had been active in politics. At that point, never was successful in elective office, but was a delegate to the Republican convention in 1952 and was a Taft delegate, conservative Republican family. And so I thought I would, since I had majored in government and history, I thought I would have a career in politics.

[Assistant] During the four years in college, [inaudible]?

[User] I worked for the U.S. Forest Service in Idaho, in Montana. I was stationed in Idaho, but I fought forest fires in Montana. And I did that summers of '53, '54. So between my high school and Beloit, I was in Idaho and then also the next year. So I did, did travel. Yes. And one of the ironies is when I was in Idaho the second year, it was rainy. It was a rainy season and there weren't very many fires and not many prospects. The year before was very dry and so I made a lot of money, I mean, at a $1.50 an hour. But, you know, when you work 14 hours a day or so, you end up making a decent, a decent income.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But anyway, so this one fella was going to take a quick trip down the coast, Pacific Coast, down through Oregon and California. There are two of them, so I ended up traveling with them. The fellow who was the primary organizer had an uncle who lived in Beverly Hills, was the head set director for 20th Century Fox. And so we met Marilyn Monroe and Gene Simmons. And for a 19 year old, you know, this is.

[Assistant] Uh, so after college, your first degree at Beloit, you started teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I worked. Let me back up.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I, I lived in a funeral home in Beloit. Actually, when I was in college my freshman year, all four of us were in college. And so my parents, although my dad certainly would be a middle income person making eight or $9,000 bucks a year in those days, he didn't have that kind of money. My sisters were on scholarship and my brother at Western Michigan, I don't think his school cost maybe three or $400 a year in those days. And Beloit was relatively expensive at $1,300 a year.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] And so I ended up living in a funeral home. So I got my room. I got 25 bucks a week. So that, but I ended up, when I graduated from college, I ended up with $90 in my pocket, so I was debt free. But anyway, I went to work in Detroit for the Aetna Casualty and Surety Company because I was going to be a big business type.

[Assistant] And then go into politics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Right. But anyway, when I, prior to my going to Detroit working for the Aetna, I had given myself a 30 day vacation. And so I had hitchhiked up to Maine and the New England states and ended up in Washington, D.C., and stayed at the YMCA, which was a few blocks from the White House. And ironically, a fraternity brother who was from Stanford but he was a political science professor at San Jose State. And I realized that he'd ran for Congress in 1956 as a Democrat. And so I wrote him a card at Christmastime and said, although I'm a Republican, I'll come out to California and help your campaign if you're going to run again. And he wrote back and said, I'm not running for Congress this year, but going to South America. Are you interested? So I quit my job with the Aetna and I traveled to Mexico, Central and South America.

There are three of us, and we got stuck on a sandbar in the Magdalena River in Colombia. And he and the other person were on a timetable. I mean, like he had to be back in fall time to teach. All I had to do was get back and get drafted. And so we split. But then I traveled on my own for the rest of that trip. I spent a total of $600 for four and a half months. I literally ran out of money in Buenos Aires. And a German ship captain, the 24th ship captain I'd asked, said yeah, I could work on the ship. Didn't make any money, but I went from Buenos Aires to New York. So I had done some travel and service.

[Assistant] How about had you picked up any language?

[User] Spanish, I knew some.

[Assistant] You wouldn't consider yourself fluent?

[User] No. I mean, when I was there, of course, I got, I could survive with it.

[Assistant] Right. Okay, so you finally, you get back to New York and then back to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Spanish, I knew some.

[Assistant] You wouldn't consider yourself fluent?

[User] No. I mean, when I was there, of course, I got, I could survive with it.

[Assistant] Right. Okay, so you finally, you get back to New York and then back to?

[User] Three Rivers, Michigan. Went back to my draft board and said I'm here, and seven weeks later I'm in the Army.

[Assistant] So that put you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three Rivers, Michigan. Went back to my draft board and said I'm here, and seven weeks later I'm in the Army.

[Assistant] So that put you?

[User] That would take us up to December 1958.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Served 21 months. Got an early out and go to western Michigan to start my teaching certificate and master's degree.

[Assistant] At what point did you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would take us up to December 1958.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Served 21 months. Got an early out and go to western Michigan to start my teaching certificate and master's degree.

[Assistant] At what point did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, surprisingly enough, in the campaign of 1960, I was aware of that being talked about. And then I kind of put it in the back of my mind until summer school in western Michigan in 1963, and the Peace Corps recruiter was there. And so I said, well, this sounds like a possibility for me, being single. So I got the information and filled out whatever I had to do at that time.

[Assistant] It was a fairly lengthy application, I don't know if you remember it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Served 21 months. Got an early out and go to western Michigan to start my teaching certificate and master's degree.

[Assistant] At what point did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, surprisingly enough, in the campaign of 1960, I was aware of that being talked about. And then I kind of put it in the back of my mind until summer school in western Michigan in 1963, and the Peace Corps recruiter was there. And so I said, well, this sounds like a possibility for me, being single. So I got the information and filled out whatever I had to do at that time.

[Assistant] It was a fairly lengthy application, I don't know if you remember it?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] One of the things they ask is the preference for area. Do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] One of the things they ask is the preference for area. Do you recall?

[User] And I left that blank. I said anywhere.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because I thought maybe at least with my even my limited Spanish, I might go to Central or South America.

[Assistant] And did you think some familiarity with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I left that blank. I said anywhere.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because I thought maybe at least with my even my limited Spanish, I might go to Central or South America.

[Assistant] And did you think some familiarity with?

[User] Yes. I said, I'm not trying to deceive anybody, I'm not fluent.

[Assistant] Right, right. Were they still taking the entrance exams? [inaudible]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I thought maybe at least with my even my limited Spanish, I might go to Central or South America.

[Assistant] And did you think some familiarity with?

[User] Yes. I said, I'm not trying to deceive anybody, I'm not fluent.

[Assistant] Right, right. Were they still taking the entrance exams? [inaudible]

[User] I, I don't remember, except for when I went into training, when I went to Columbia University, we had a battery of tests.

[Assistant] No, this would have been, well, they may have stopped by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I said, I'm not trying to deceive anybody, I'm not fluent.

[Assistant] Right, right. Were they still taking the entrance exams? [inaudible]

[User] I, I don't remember, except for when I went into training, when I went to Columbia University, we had a battery of tests.

[Assistant] No, this would have been, well, they may have stopped by then.

[User] Or they may have and I'm just forgetting that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when did you apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or they may have and I'm just forgetting that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when did you apply?

[User] I applied in that summer of '63.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And made at least an initial application that said I wouldn't be available until after August of '64. I did want to graduate with my master's degree.

[Assistant] So you completed your master's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I applied in that summer of '63.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And made at least an initial application that said I wouldn't be available until after August of '64. I did want to graduate with my master's degree.

[Assistant] So you completed your master's.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do student teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And made at least an initial application that said I wouldn't be available until after August of '64. I did want to graduate with my master's degree.

[Assistant] So you completed your master's.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do student teaching?

[User] I had done student teaching back when I got out of the Army in the academic year '60-'61. I did my student teaching at Western Michigan University, I mean, at Three Rivers High School.

[Assistant] Once you applied, did you think that was it or were you still looking for career alternatives or jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you do student teaching?

[User] I had done student teaching back when I got out of the Army in the academic year '60-'61. I did my student teaching at Western Michigan University, I mean, at Three Rivers High School.

[Assistant] Once you applied, did you think that was it or were you still looking for career alternatives or jobs?

[User] Oh, when I was in Peace Corps, I was very open to whether I got assigned land settlement, teaching, whatever.

[Assistant] But would you have fallbacks [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was planning on then to stay on teaching where I was. And I got accepted in April or May of that year. Got a telegram from Sargent Shriver.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so then I made that announcement that I was not going to be back for next year because I was going in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Said you'd been accepted for Kenya. Training at Columbia University Teachers College, Columbia. Such and such dates, like September 15th to December 20th or whatever.

[Assistant] What was your reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so then I made that announcement that I was not going to be back for next year because I was going in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Said you'd been accepted for Kenya. Training at Columbia University Teachers College, Columbia. Such and such dates, like September 15th to December 20th or whatever.

[Assistant] What was your reaction?

[User] I was, I was, I was really excited. I thought, this is a tremendous, a tremendous opportunity. But also I was really honored in getting this far in the acceptance process.

[Assistant] And what was your family's reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, I was, I was really excited. I thought, this is a tremendous, a tremendous opportunity. But also I was really honored in getting this far in the acceptance process.

[Assistant] And what was your family's reaction?

[User] Well, I, of course, called my parents, told them what I was doing. Since I'd been to South America and survived, my parents were not terribly distraught. And my dad had been in World War I in France, and so he could see the value of travel.

[Assistant] What [inaudible]?

[User] Oh, they were, they were very encouraging, very supportive.

[Assistant] Any fears or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I, of course, called my parents, told them what I was doing. Since I'd been to South America and survived, my parents were not terribly distraught. And my dad had been in World War I in France, and so he could see the value of travel.

[Assistant] What [inaudible]?

[User] Oh, they were, they were very encouraging, very supportive.

[Assistant] Any fears or?

[User] Yeah, they too thought this was just a tremendous experience. Certainly an enriching one to make a better teacher.

[Assistant] Not that you were crazy or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they were, they were very encouraging, very supportive.

[Assistant] Any fears or?

[User] Yeah, they too thought this was just a tremendous experience. Certainly an enriching one to make a better teacher.

[Assistant] Not that you were crazy or?

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] And what did you know of Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they too thought this was just a tremendous experience. Certainly an enriching one to make a better teacher.

[Assistant] Not that you were crazy or?

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] And what did you know of Kenya?

[User] Well, of course, I had, having taken history and government through college in the fifties, I was aware of the Mau Mau movement. And obviously, very biased, very pro-British at that point in time. I shouldn't say pro-British, but certainly not pro-Africa.

[Assistant] So you wrapped it up in Michigan and headed off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no.

[Assistant] And what did you know of Kenya?

[User] Well, of course, I had, having taken history and government through college in the fifties, I was aware of the Mau Mau movement. And obviously, very biased, very pro-British at that point in time. I shouldn't say pro-British, but certainly not pro-Africa.

[Assistant] So you wrapped it up in Michigan and headed off?

[User] Yes. At Teachers College.

[Assistant] Do you remember initially reporting at Teachers College? Now you're meeting with the people who, like you, were going into Peace Corps. [inaudible]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, I had, having taken history and government through college in the fifties, I was aware of the Mau Mau movement. And obviously, very biased, very pro-British at that point in time. I shouldn't say pro-British, but certainly not pro-Africa.

[Assistant] So you wrapped it up in Michigan and headed off?

[User] Yes. At Teachers College.

[Assistant] Do you remember initially reporting at Teachers College? Now you're meeting with the people who, like you, were going into Peace Corps. [inaudible]

[User] You know, I don't have a real clear recollection. And I'm trying to think of whether we got in at night and went straight to the hotel that we stayed at and then the next day met at Teachers College. I think that's what happened. Because I remember meeting. No, that was later, that was when we were getting ready to go to country that I met a couple of my friends who I'd trained with, we then were on the same plane. One came from Anchorage, Alaska, and then stopped in Detroit. But no, I flew into Newark because I had a high school friend who met me there. And so I really, my first night. I got there a couple of days before I was supposed to so I could visit with my high school friend who was lived in the greater New York area. He worked on Wall Street.

[Assistant] So your training group was about 120 people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. At Teachers College.

[Assistant] Do you remember initially reporting at Teachers College? Now you're meeting with the people who, like you, were going into Peace Corps. [inaudible]

[User] You know, I don't have a real clear recollection. And I'm trying to think of whether we got in at night and went straight to the hotel that we stayed at and then the next day met at Teachers College. I think that's what happened. Because I remember meeting. No, that was later, that was when we were getting ready to go to country that I met a couple of my friends who I'd trained with, we then were on the same plane. One came from Anchorage, Alaska, and then stopped in Detroit. But no, I flew into Newark because I had a high school friend who met me there. And so I really, my first night. I got there a couple of days before I was supposed to so I could visit with my high school friend who was lived in the greater New York area. He worked on Wall Street.

[Assistant] So your training group was about 120 people?

[User] 120 of us.

[Assistant] And you were actually in training for Swahili?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 120 of us.

[Assistant] And you were actually in training for Swahili?

[User] That's true. All of us, of course, were being trained in Swahili. That was the common ground. And all being trained for education.

[Assistant] Secondary education?

[User] Yes, secondary education.

[Assistant] For Tanganyika and Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. All of us, of course, were being trained in Swahili. That was the common ground. And all being trained for education.

[Assistant] Secondary education?

[User] Yes, secondary education.

[Assistant] For Tanganyika and Kenya?

[User] That's correct. It was Tanganyika when we started, but it was Tanzania by the time we left the training because the merger with Zanzibar in '64.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, did you differentiate initially? [inaudible]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, secondary education.

[Assistant] For Tanganyika and Kenya?

[User] That's correct. It was Tanganyika when we started, but it was Tanzania by the time we left the training because the merger with Zanzibar in '64.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, did you differentiate initially? [inaudible]

[User] No, we were. When we were lumped together for language, we were lumped alphabetically. And so whatever this group will have this teacher and people are going to all three countries, that did not make a big difference.

[Assistant] Describe the training [inaudible].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were. When we were lumped together for language, we were lumped alphabetically. And so whatever this group will have this teacher and people are going to all three countries, that did not make a big difference.

[Assistant] Describe the training [inaudible].

[User] Oh, we'd have lectures on East African history. Cultural things. And language we had one hour, three days a week. So it was not. I mean, people knew that we were going to be teaching in English.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And so it's not like knowing Swahili meant whether we survived or not. And had a lot of presentations on racism. And of course, this is '64 when the civil rights stuff was just beginning to evolve. But, you know, whether you see two people, two males walking down the street holding hands. How do you feel about that? This is their culture and it's just a sign of affection. And it has nothing to do with sexual identity or sexual identity.

[Assistant] Yeah, that would be inaccurate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so it's not like knowing Swahili meant whether we survived or not. And had a lot of presentations on racism. And of course, this is '64 when the civil rights stuff was just beginning to evolve. But, you know, whether you see two people, two males walking down the street holding hands. How do you feel about that? This is their culture and it's just a sign of affection. And it has nothing to do with sexual identity or sexual identity.

[Assistant] Yeah, that would be inaccurate.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And then have British teachers come in and talk about, talking about the boot, or the boot in the bottom of the car versus the trunk.

[Assistant] You actually had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then have British teachers come in and talk about, talking about the boot, or the boot in the bottom of the car versus the trunk.

[Assistant] You actually had?

[User] So we had Brits come in and teach.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was fun, it was just to get this cultural difference.

[Assistant] But it was kind of generic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had Brits come in and teach.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And it was fun, it was just to get this cultural difference.

[Assistant] But it was kind of generic?

[User] Yes. Where we were going made no difference. We were given the same education.

[Assistant] Did that vary [inaudible]? Did you ever sense that [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was fun, it was just to get this cultural difference.

[Assistant] But it was kind of generic?

[User] Yes. Where we were going made no difference. We were given the same education.

[Assistant] Did that vary [inaudible]? Did you ever sense that [inaudible]?

[User] There certainly was that sense that they're going to prepare us for possibilities of being questioned why is your government doing these kinds of things? And of course, when I was in Kenya, I was confronted with, why are you going into Vietnam?

[Assistant] During training, did anyone from Washington come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Where we were going made no difference. We were given the same education.

[Assistant] Did that vary [inaudible]? Did you ever sense that [inaudible]?

[User] There certainly was that sense that they're going to prepare us for possibilities of being questioned why is your government doing these kinds of things? And of course, when I was in Kenya, I was confronted with, why are you going into Vietnam?

[Assistant] During training, did anyone from Washington come?

[User] Well, actually, talking about Vietnam, we had Roger Hilsman, who was the Assistant Secretary of State for Southeast Asian Affairs and was a West Point graduate. He was defending our policy in southeast Asia. And so, yes, we had people. And also we had people who wrote about the civil rights. Our chief psychologist in the deselection process, was it Dr. Gilbert, who was the chief psychologist at Nuremberg? We were just scared to death of him. I only heard him once and didn't really meet him personally. He presented when we had our first deselection. And like ten people got deselected, I mean, which was not a high number. I think out of 120 of us, 109 survived that process.

[Assistant] Do you recall the deselection process? I mean, did they do a battery of tests?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, talking about Vietnam, we had Roger Hilsman, who was the Assistant Secretary of State for Southeast Asian Affairs and was a West Point graduate. He was defending our policy in southeast Asia. And so, yes, we had people. And also we had people who wrote about the civil rights. Our chief psychologist in the deselection process, was it Dr. Gilbert, who was the chief psychologist at Nuremberg? We were just scared to death of him. I only heard him once and didn't really meet him personally. He presented when we had our first deselection. And like ten people got deselected, I mean, which was not a high number. I think out of 120 of us, 109 survived that process.

[Assistant] Do you recall the deselection process? I mean, did they do a battery of tests?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Psychological tests?

[User] Psychological and probably intelligence tests. Because at least I know when I was interviewed by my psychologist, he said I was kind of in the mid. I wasn't, I wasn't at the top or at the bottom. I don't know what that meant.

[Assistant] You remember, do you recall the interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Psychological and probably intelligence tests. Because at least I know when I was interviewed by my psychologist, he said I was kind of in the mid. I wasn't, I wasn't at the top or at the bottom. I don't know what that meant.

[Assistant] You remember, do you recall the interview?

[User] Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Well, at least the interview that I got was centered around, well, do you think you can survive two years without conveniences? Loneliness. You think you can cope? And I certainly felt, you know, I was a 29 year old male and so I was used to being single. And I thought, well, I can give it a try and certainly see, but I would think that I had that. And it is a big difference between being home and being alone.

[Assistant] Were most of the group [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Well, at least the interview that I got was centered around, well, do you think you can survive two years without conveniences? Loneliness. You think you can cope? And I certainly felt, you know, I was a 29 year old male and so I was used to being single. And I thought, well, I can give it a try and certainly see, but I would think that I had that. And it is a big difference between being home and being alone.

[Assistant] Were most of the group [inaudible]?

[User] Well, I think, I think all of us had a level of stress.

[Assistant] And then when the big [inaudible], what was the reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shock. Disappointment. Not because they got deselected, but in the process, because one of the persons was very popular with the. We thought of all of us. And that's another thing I think plenty of us were tremendous people. I mean, I've never been involved, because then it became a family. Even though 120 of us got to know each other, at least to some degree. And it was just a talented group of people.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] And I didn't feel I was in any clique. I was never an outcast, but I never was inner-inner in any subgroup.

[Assistant] Most of the group were just recent graduates?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] And I didn't feel I was in any clique. I was never an outcast, but I never was inner-inner in any subgroup.

[Assistant] Most of the group were just recent graduates?

[User] Yes. Most were 21, 22, 23.

[Assistant] So in effect, you were older.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Most were 21, 22, 23.

[Assistant] So in effect, you were older.

[User] I know there was another person who was 26, another male who was 26, I was 29, but he also was a former veteran. So there were two of us who had been veterans, and there were three women who were older than I was. But I was the oldest male. Yes. Clara was 67.

[Assistant] Yes. [inaudible]

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, uh, the language component was minimal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know there was another person who was 26, another male who was 26, I was 29, but he also was a former veteran. So there were two of us who had been veterans, and there were three women who were older than I was. But I was the oldest male. Yes. Clara was 67.

[Assistant] Yes. [inaudible]

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, uh, the language component was minimal.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] [inaudible] What was your own feeling about deselection [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, uh, the language component was minimal.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] [inaudible] What was your own feeling about deselection [inaudible]?

[User] Well, I certainly felt buoyed by making the first cut because I knew there would be a final cut. But, but, no, then my self confidence rose. I said, okay, I think this is the hardest part.

[Assistant] Of the group [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I certainly felt buoyed by making the first cut because I knew there would be a final cut. But, but, no, then my self confidence rose. I said, okay, I think this is the hardest part.

[Assistant] Of the group [inaudible]?

[User] Oh, I would think, out of 120, maybe 20.

[Assistant] That low?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During training [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I would think, out of 120, maybe 20.

[Assistant] That low?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] During training [inaudible]?

[User] I should have said that initially, that the major focus really was on education. You know, how to present, how to teach.

[Assistant] But you were a teacher already.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had, we had eight. I think we had two people come back who were teachers for East Africa, which was the program that preceded the Peace Corps. [inaudible]

[Assistant] American?

[User] American. We did have a couple of British people as well as I talked about doing the language thing and the cultural thing. So, so we got a good exposure, I thought. And then we had a block of student teaching. I was assigned to Commerce High School, which is now I think a hall. Not Carnegie Hall, but where Leonard Bernstein was conductor.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But anyway. The old Commerce High School, it's now torn down. Anyway, it was, looked like it had possibilities, but having taught I was kind of bored. And so I fortunately was able to opt out and I worked for Leonard Covello who had been principal of Benjamin Franklin High School in Harlem, Puerto Rican, the commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So Nancy Shandling and I opted out because we've been teaching.

[Assistant] And they simply said, you don't have to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] American. We did have a couple of British people as well as I talked about doing the language thing and the cultural thing. So, so we got a good exposure, I thought. And then we had a block of student teaching. I was assigned to Commerce High School, which is now I think a hall. Not Carnegie Hall, but where Leonard Bernstein was conductor.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] But anyway. The old Commerce High School, it's now torn down. Anyway, it was, looked like it had possibilities, but having taught I was kind of bored. And so I fortunately was able to opt out and I worked for Leonard Covello who had been principal of Benjamin Franklin High School in Harlem, Puerto Rican, the commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So Nancy Shandling and I opted out because we've been teaching.

[Assistant] And they simply said, you don't have to?

[User] Right. They gave us permission. I think we had to find something before we could opt out.

[Assistant] Okay. And what did you do instead?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But anyway. The old Commerce High School, it's now torn down. Anyway, it was, looked like it had possibilities, but having taught I was kind of bored. And so I fortunately was able to opt out and I worked for Leonard Covello who had been principal of Benjamin Franklin High School in Harlem, Puerto Rican, the commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So Nancy Shandling and I opted out because we've been teaching.

[Assistant] And they simply said, you don't have to?

[User] Right. They gave us permission. I think we had to find something before we could opt out.

[Assistant] Okay. And what did you do instead?

[User] Well, we helped organize a one day workshop for students at Benjamin Franklin High School, for people in the neighborhood, for career development. So a lot of my colleagues volunteered a half a day or a day to talk about what it was like to be whatever. And some were not really doing anything they were familiar with. Somebody didn't show up who was a beautician. But that was, that was also part of the growth, the development, was to do the unusual and be flexible.

[Assistant] Was there, were there any [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. They gave us permission. I think we had to find something before we could opt out.

[Assistant] Okay. And what did you do instead?

[User] Well, we helped organize a one day workshop for students at Benjamin Franklin High School, for people in the neighborhood, for career development. So a lot of my colleagues volunteered a half a day or a day to talk about what it was like to be whatever. And some were not really doing anything they were familiar with. Somebody didn't show up who was a beautician. But that was, that was also part of the growth, the development, was to do the unusual and be flexible.

[Assistant] Was there, were there any [inaudible]?

[User] My Swahili teacher was from Kenya.

[Assistant] Any significant others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we helped organize a one day workshop for students at Benjamin Franklin High School, for people in the neighborhood, for career development. So a lot of my colleagues volunteered a half a day or a day to talk about what it was like to be whatever. And some were not really doing anything they were familiar with. Somebody didn't show up who was a beautician. But that was, that was also part of the growth, the development, was to do the unusual and be flexible.

[Assistant] Was there, were there any [inaudible]?

[User] My Swahili teacher was from Kenya.

[Assistant] Any significant others?

[User] Other than an occasional person coming in and talking about cultural things. There was no permanent staff.

[Assistant] And were there discussions or lectures about [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My Swahili teacher was from Kenya.

[Assistant] Any significant others?

[User] Other than an occasional person coming in and talking about cultural things. There was no permanent staff.

[Assistant] And were there discussions or lectures about [inaudible]?

[User] Maybe not quite in that category, but certainly their awareness was heightened on these things. But it wasn't a direct topic on it.

[Assistant] Were there lectures about [inaudible]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than an occasional person coming in and talking about cultural things. There was no permanent staff.

[Assistant] And were there discussions or lectures about [inaudible]?

[User] Maybe not quite in that category, but certainly their awareness was heightened on these things. But it wasn't a direct topic on it.

[Assistant] Were there lectures about [inaudible]?

[User] Not directly, because most of this was in '50, '52 to '54, '55. Since Kenyatta, of course, had been now at that time was the prime minister, was prime minister the first year. And when we got in country, he'd become president. So the government format was parliamentary.

[Assistant] So how long did the training last?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe not quite in that category, but certainly their awareness was heightened on these things. But it wasn't a direct topic on it.

[Assistant] Were there lectures about [inaudible]?

[User] Not directly, because most of this was in '50, '52 to '54, '55. Since Kenyatta, of course, had been now at that time was the prime minister, was prime minister the first year. And when we got in country, he'd become president. So the government format was parliamentary.

[Assistant] So how long did the training last?

[User] As I remember, September 20th to December 20th, and then we had time off to go back home for Christmas.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember the final deselection?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not directly, because most of this was in '50, '52 to '54, '55. Since Kenyatta, of course, had been now at that time was the prime minister, was prime minister the first year. And when we got in country, he'd become president. So the government format was parliamentary.

[Assistant] So how long did the training last?

[User] As I remember, September 20th to December 20th, and then we had time off to go back home for Christmas.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember the final deselection?

[User] That was less stressful it seemed like, and only two people or one person maybe at that point were deselected. So it wasn't like the mid.

[Assistant] Had you been given an assignment? Did you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I remember, September 20th to December 20th, and then we had time off to go back home for Christmas.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember the final deselection?

[User] That was less stressful it seemed like, and only two people or one person maybe at that point were deselected. So it wasn't like the mid.

[Assistant] Had you been given an assignment? Did you know?

[User] We didn't know where, that didn't happen until we got in country. We just knew that we're going to Kenya and we're going to teach in a secondary school.

[Assistant] And what subject were you going to be teaching?