[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, pretty much. Because they were all educated. They were either, you know, they were teachers in secondary school or the other members of the club were, you know, government officials and lawyers and doctors. You know, it was the male, and it was male. It was a men's club. And the British, you know, out of the British tradition, and they were the elite in the community. They were the professionals or the government officials because the club itself was in an area that was known as the GRA, the government reservation area, where colonial houses had been built for the colonial officials. And along with that, there was a swimming pool and, you know, a golf course and a tennis court.

[Assistant] All British?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly. And then inherited by the Yoruba and the Nigerians who took over.

[Assistant] So your first year eventually comes to an end?

[User] Well, yeah, yeah. But also, I don't remember the timing of it because those are the things with about the museum come fairly early on, and it's by the latter part of my first year that I shift my vacation activities to setting up vacation arts camps for primary school kids in Abeokuta.

[Assistant] Primary school? So these are not the students that you're working with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly. And then inherited by the Yoruba and the Nigerians who took over.

[Assistant] So your first year eventually comes to an end?

[User] Well, yeah, yeah. But also, I don't remember the timing of it because those are the things with about the museum come fairly early on, and it's by the latter part of my first year that I shift my vacation activities to setting up vacation arts camps for primary school kids in Abeokuta.

[Assistant] Primary school? So these are not the students that you're working with.

[User] No, no. These are younger kids in other schools, other primary schools. And I had a number of other volunteers. One of the other Peace Corps volunteers who was there. And VSO, one or two VSO volunteers, and other Yoruba colleagues, teacher colleagues who were interested in art to set up these art camps.

[Assistant] This is great. And this is your idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yeah, yeah. But also, I don't remember the timing of it because those are the things with about the museum come fairly early on, and it's by the latter part of my first year that I shift my vacation activities to setting up vacation arts camps for primary school kids in Abeokuta.

[Assistant] Primary school? So these are not the students that you're working with.

[User] No, no. These are younger kids in other schools, other primary schools. And I had a number of other volunteers. One of the other Peace Corps volunteers who was there. And VSO, one or two VSO volunteers, and other Yoruba colleagues, teacher colleagues who were interested in art to set up these art camps.

[Assistant] This is great. And this is your idea?

[User] Yeah, this is my idea.

[Assistant] So what did you do, when you say an arts camp?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. These are younger kids in other schools, other primary schools. And I had a number of other volunteers. One of the other Peace Corps volunteers who was there. And VSO, one or two VSO volunteers, and other Yoruba colleagues, teacher colleagues who were interested in art to set up these art camps.

[Assistant] This is great. And this is your idea?

[User] Yeah, this is my idea.

[Assistant] So what did you do, when you say an arts camp?

[User] Well, we would bring the kids to one of the schools where the facilities were emptied or the kids had gone because they were coming to a secondary school campus. But they were the primary school kids in town. So they would come in the morning and we would do various kinds of arts and crafts projects and games for them during the day. That's what we ran.

[Assistant] And these children would be Yoruba speakers. This is all happening in Yoruba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, this is my idea.

[Assistant] So what did you do, when you say an arts camp?

[User] Well, we would bring the kids to one of the schools where the facilities were emptied or the kids had gone because they were coming to a secondary school campus. But they were the primary school kids in town. So they would come in the morning and we would do various kinds of arts and crafts projects and games for them during the day. That's what we ran.

[Assistant] And these children would be Yoruba speakers. This is all happening in Yoruba?

[User] Yes, it's all happening in Yoruba. Yeah. Or and many of them were in schools again where they were trying to push English because that was the entrance into the academic secondary schools since English was still a compulsory subject at any stage, you see. So, yeah, so again, I was expressing my own interest in the arts and bringing that to my students or to younger Yoruba in the town.

[Assistant] And you said at its height there were how many kids?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it's all happening in Yoruba. Yeah. Or and many of them were in schools again where they were trying to push English because that was the entrance into the academic secondary schools since English was still a compulsory subject at any stage, you see. So, yeah, so again, I was expressing my own interest in the arts and bringing that to my students or to younger Yoruba in the town.

[Assistant] And you said at its height there were how many kids?

[User] I think we had three or four going in different primary schools.

[Assistant] Oh, simultaneously?

[User] Simultaneously for a two-week period.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And these kids would go home at night? They weren't staying in the boarding facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we had three or four going in different primary schools.

[Assistant] Oh, simultaneously?

[User] Simultaneously for a two-week period.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And these kids would go home at night? They weren't staying in the boarding facility?

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] And what kind of arts things would you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Simultaneously for a two-week period.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And these kids would go home at night? They weren't staying in the boarding facility?

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] And what kind of arts things would you do?

[User] It was basically painting and paper, you know, working with paper, constructing things with paper. We also we would make paper masks and then they would do some performances with those. Coloring. Coloring kinds of projects. There wasn't any kind of serious sculpture, it was all pretty much two-dimensional work that they were doing. And we also, I don't remember, I don't have much of a sense of the details of the curriculum, and I don't know if I saved any of the materials that we produced because I had, you know, had booklets, handbooks, you know, for the camps and that kind of thing. And but I haven't thought about it in a long time. So I don't remember the details very well. And then it was games, you know, it was arts and games of various kinds, sports for the younger kids, and we would have meals for them, one meal during the day, it was prepared for them as well.

[Assistant] You got funding for this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] And what kind of arts things would you do?

[User] It was basically painting and paper, you know, working with paper, constructing things with paper. We also we would make paper masks and then they would do some performances with those. Coloring. Coloring kinds of projects. There wasn't any kind of serious sculpture, it was all pretty much two-dimensional work that they were doing. And we also, I don't remember, I don't have much of a sense of the details of the curriculum, and I don't know if I saved any of the materials that we produced because I had, you know, had booklets, handbooks, you know, for the camps and that kind of thing. And but I haven't thought about it in a long time. So I don't remember the details very well. And then it was games, you know, it was arts and games of various kinds, sports for the younger kids, and we would have meals for them, one meal during the day, it was prepared for them as well.

[Assistant] You got funding for this.

[User] I got donations. People, you know, put in time. They volunteered to help me out a little bit. We had some funds. Not much.

[Assistant] You'd need some funds to feed that one meal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got donations. People, you know, put in time. They volunteered to help me out a little bit. We had some funds. Not much.

[Assistant] You'd need some funds to feed that one meal.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, and I think that was coming from our salaries.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were also giving your own free time because if this was on school break, you could have gone off to Ibadan, Lagos.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, and I think that was coming from our salaries.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were also giving your own free time because if this was on school break, you could have gone off to Ibadan, Lagos.

[User] Right. Well, I did that too. I did that on some of them. I didn't do this all of my, you know, two-week vacations during the two years. But I did it for I would estimate maybe about a, maybe three or four of the two week, the shorter vacations, and during that time.

[Assistant] So I'm recalling that somewhere around December, there was a bigger six week, six or seven week school break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were also giving your own free time because if this was on school break, you could have gone off to Ibadan, Lagos.

[User] Right. Well, I did that too. I did that on some of them. I didn't do this all of my, you know, two-week vacations during the two years. But I did it for I would estimate maybe about a, maybe three or four of the two week, the shorter vacations, and during that time.

[Assistant] So I'm recalling that somewhere around December, there was a bigger six week, six or seven week school break.

[User] Yes, right. Well, there was one time when we went to Ibadan for a kind of refresher course in French.

[Assistant] You were called in by Peace Corps to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, I did that too. I did that on some of them. I didn't do this all of my, you know, two-week vacations during the two years. But I did it for I would estimate maybe about a, maybe three or four of the two week, the shorter vacations, and during that time.

[Assistant] So I'm recalling that somewhere around December, there was a bigger six week, six or seven week school break.

[User] Yes, right. Well, there was one time when we went to Ibadan for a kind of refresher course in French.

[Assistant] You were called in by Peace Corps to do that?

[User] Yeah. And my colleague here at UW was one of the teachers.

[Assistant] No kidding, and who was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And my colleague here at UW was one of the teachers.

[Assistant] No kidding, and who was that?

[User] This is Marquat, Idris. Idris Marquat, who's now retired, but who lives just down the street here. He was on the faculty at the University of Ibadan, teaching us French teachers, because he remembers me from then. So when I was recruited to come to UW, he was one of the first people to see me at my interview.

[Assistant] Oh wonderful.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So that was a, you know, a kind of in-service training that Peace Corps organized for us as teachers. But that was only the only one. There are shorter vacations we had to ourselves, so I use them for the museum project, then the arts camps. And then I did some traveling. As I said, I had my Honda 50. So there was one vacation. It must have been the longer vacation, but I'm not sure, when I took the train north from Abeokuta up to Zaria, put the Honda on it. And then when I got into the north and I had my Honda and drove around to Zaria and to Kano, and, uh, I think it was just Zaria in Kano. I didn't get up to Sokoto, but I explored the north.

[Assistant] The north, of course, being a Muslim area. Quite a different culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So that was a, you know, a kind of in-service training that Peace Corps organized for us as teachers. But that was only the only one. There are shorter vacations we had to ourselves, so I use them for the museum project, then the arts camps. And then I did some traveling. As I said, I had my Honda 50. So there was one vacation. It must have been the longer vacation, but I'm not sure, when I took the train north from Abeokuta up to Zaria, put the Honda on it. And then when I got into the north and I had my Honda and drove around to Zaria and to Kano, and, uh, I think it was just Zaria in Kano. I didn't get up to Sokoto, but I explored the north.

[Assistant] The north, of course, being a Muslim area. Quite a different culture.

[User] Yes, very different. Very different. Yep. But I wanted to get a sense of the country. I never did make it to the east during my two years in the Peace Corps, but I did later on. I also, with another contract doctor who was working at the hospital, at Aro Hospital. He was African- American doctor from Seattle. I'm blanking on his name right now, but we decided we wanted to take a trip to Ouagadougou.

[Assistant] Oh yes.

[User] And because of the name.

[Assistant] Ah yes, in what was then called Upper Volta. Today, Burkina Faso.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, very different. Very different. Yep. But I wanted to get a sense of the country. I never did make it to the east during my two years in the Peace Corps, but I did later on. I also, with another contract doctor who was working at the hospital, at Aro Hospital. He was African- American doctor from Seattle. I'm blanking on his name right now, but we decided we wanted to take a trip to Ouagadougou.

[Assistant] Oh yes.

[User] And because of the name.

[Assistant] Ah yes, in what was then called Upper Volta. Today, Burkina Faso.

[User] Right. So we had his car, he had a car.

[Assistant] And tell me again, what was his capacity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So we had his car, he had a car.

[Assistant] And tell me again, what was his capacity?

[User] He was a doctor at Aro Hospital, A-R-O Hospital, which was a mental hospital on the outskirts of Abeokuta, very famous for its work on indigenous psychiatric treatments.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And Tolani Asuni was one of the key Yoruba doctors there who went on to a distinguished career in the World Health Organization, and he was one of my tennis partners. Asuni is his name, Asuni Tolani, Asuni. And this was a hospital that had been founded by T.O. [Thomas Adeoye] Lambo, another Yoruba psychiatrist doctor trained in UK. Lambo. Lambo, yeah, that's it. Yeah, so we took this trip in my friend's car. His name might come to me if I think about this. And so we drove from Abeokuta down to Lagos and then across the coastal road through what was still called Dahomey. Got to Togo and to Lomé. And then headed north from Lomé.

[Assistant] Ah, up through Togo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a doctor at Aro Hospital, A-R-O Hospital, which was a mental hospital on the outskirts of Abeokuta, very famous for its work on indigenous psychiatric treatments.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And Tolani Asuni was one of the key Yoruba doctors there who went on to a distinguished career in the World Health Organization, and he was one of my tennis partners. Asuni is his name, Asuni Tolani, Asuni. And this was a hospital that had been founded by T.O. [Thomas Adeoye] Lambo, another Yoruba psychiatrist doctor trained in UK. Lambo. Lambo, yeah, that's it. Yeah, so we took this trip in my friend's car. His name might come to me if I think about this. And so we drove from Abeokuta down to Lagos and then across the coastal road through what was still called Dahomey. Got to Togo and to Lomé. And then headed north from Lomé.

[Assistant] Ah, up through Togo?

[User] Yeah, up through Togo. The pavement ended at the city limits of Lomé. And after that, it was a dirt road, washboard road, all the way to Ouagadougou. By the time we got to Ouagadougou, the car takes finished. And one of our, one of the members of our trip, there were three of us. One was ill the whole time, so it was not. It was not a very pleasant trip when we make it to Ouagadougou.

[Assistant] How many days did it take you to get up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Tolani Asuni was one of the key Yoruba doctors there who went on to a distinguished career in the World Health Organization, and he was one of my tennis partners. Asuni is his name, Asuni Tolani, Asuni. And this was a hospital that had been founded by T.O. [Thomas Adeoye] Lambo, another Yoruba psychiatrist doctor trained in UK. Lambo. Lambo, yeah, that's it. Yeah, so we took this trip in my friend's car. His name might come to me if I think about this. And so we drove from Abeokuta down to Lagos and then across the coastal road through what was still called Dahomey. Got to Togo and to Lomé. And then headed north from Lomé.

[Assistant] Ah, up through Togo?

[User] Yeah, up through Togo. The pavement ended at the city limits of Lomé. And after that, it was a dirt road, washboard road, all the way to Ouagadougou. By the time we got to Ouagadougou, the car takes finished. And one of our, one of the members of our trip, there were three of us. One was ill the whole time, so it was not. It was not a very pleasant trip when we make it to Ouagadougou.

[Assistant] How many days did it take you to get up there?

[User] It took us three days, three or four days of constant driving to make it up to Ouagadougou. And then we arrive in Ouagadougou and the pavement starts again.

[Assistant] And this is now early 1965?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, up through Togo. The pavement ended at the city limits of Lomé. And after that, it was a dirt road, washboard road, all the way to Ouagadougou. By the time we got to Ouagadougou, the car takes finished. And one of our, one of the members of our trip, there were three of us. One was ill the whole time, so it was not. It was not a very pleasant trip when we make it to Ouagadougou.

[Assistant] How many days did it take you to get up there?

[User] It took us three days, three or four days of constant driving to make it up to Ouagadougou. And then we arrive in Ouagadougou and the pavement starts again.

[Assistant] And this is now early 1965?

[User] This is five, 1965. And the American ambassador was Elliott Skinner, famous anthropologist, African-American anthropologist from Columbia University. We got to meet him. We told him we had made it all the way there, but the car was not going to get us back. So he put us up in the embassy guesthouse, where we had access to the embassy swimming pool, and then tried to figure out how we were going to get back in time for our teaching and for his work. It just so happened that the day or two after we arrived and were there at the embassy, the plane that brings food and supplies to the American diplomatic corps had arrived from Lagos and it was a freight plane, so they unloaded all of their goodies that they were going to be living on for the next couple of months. And it was an empty plane. So they say, well, why don't we just put your car inside the plane, fly you back to Lagos.

[Assistant] Put the whole car inside?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took us three days, three or four days of constant driving to make it up to Ouagadougou. And then we arrive in Ouagadougou and the pavement starts again.

[Assistant] And this is now early 1965?

[User] This is five, 1965. And the American ambassador was Elliott Skinner, famous anthropologist, African-American anthropologist from Columbia University. We got to meet him. We told him we had made it all the way there, but the car was not going to get us back. So he put us up in the embassy guesthouse, where we had access to the embassy swimming pool, and then tried to figure out how we were going to get back in time for our teaching and for his work. It just so happened that the day or two after we arrived and were there at the embassy, the plane that brings food and supplies to the American diplomatic corps had arrived from Lagos and it was a freight plane, so they unloaded all of their goodies that they were going to be living on for the next couple of months. And it was an empty plane. So they say, well, why don't we just put your car inside the plane, fly you back to Lagos.

[Assistant] Put the whole car inside?

[User] They put us and the car inside the plane, flew us back to Lagos, and then we managed to get back up to Abeokuta. So that was our Ouagadougou adventure.

[Assistant] What did you see of Ouagadougou?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is five, 1965. And the American ambassador was Elliott Skinner, famous anthropologist, African-American anthropologist from Columbia University. We got to meet him. We told him we had made it all the way there, but the car was not going to get us back. So he put us up in the embassy guesthouse, where we had access to the embassy swimming pool, and then tried to figure out how we were going to get back in time for our teaching and for his work. It just so happened that the day or two after we arrived and were there at the embassy, the plane that brings food and supplies to the American diplomatic corps had arrived from Lagos and it was a freight plane, so they unloaded all of their goodies that they were going to be living on for the next couple of months. And it was an empty plane. So they say, well, why don't we just put your car inside the plane, fly you back to Lagos.

[Assistant] Put the whole car inside?

[User] They put us and the car inside the plane, flew us back to Lagos, and then we managed to get back up to Abeokuta. So that was our Ouagadougou adventure.

[Assistant] What did you see of Ouagadougou?

[User] Well, we saw the guesthouse, we saw the swimming pool. We saw some of the streets and some of the French restaurants in Ouagadougou. So that was it, because we only spent maybe about three or four days and then the plane was flying back. So we took it.

[Assistant] And it had taken you so long to get there. You ate up a lot of available time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They put us and the car inside the plane, flew us back to Lagos, and then we managed to get back up to Abeokuta. So that was our Ouagadougou adventure.

[Assistant] What did you see of Ouagadougou?

[User] Well, we saw the guesthouse, we saw the swimming pool. We saw some of the streets and some of the French restaurants in Ouagadougou. So that was it, because we only spent maybe about three or four days and then the plane was flying back. So we took it.

[Assistant] And it had taken you so long to get there. You ate up a lot of available time.

[User] Took about a week to get there. Yeah, that was an adventure.

[Assistant] So then you got back. That must have been the long holiday, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we saw the guesthouse, we saw the swimming pool. We saw some of the streets and some of the French restaurants in Ouagadougou. So that was it, because we only spent maybe about three or four days and then the plane was flying back. So we took it.

[Assistant] And it had taken you so long to get there. You ate up a lot of available time.

[User] Took about a week to get there. Yeah, that was an adventure.

[Assistant] So then you got back. That must have been the long holiday, right?

[User] I think so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because the weather. I remember the weather and that's the dry period and it was there was some harmattan, so that would have been January and December, January period. It's about this same time that I make friends with a Yoruba sculptor through the friendship of this Peace Corps woman who was teaching in a different school. She was collecting oral history. She was in literature and she was recording him on stories and songs in Yoruba.

[Assistant] Recording the sculptor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Took about a week to get there. Yeah, that was an adventure.

[Assistant] So then you got back. That must have been the long holiday, right?

[User] I think so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because the weather. I remember the weather and that's the dry period and it was there was some harmattan, so that would have been January and December, January period. It's about this same time that I make friends with a Yoruba sculptor through the friendship of this Peace Corps woman who was teaching in a different school. She was collecting oral history. She was in literature and she was recording him on stories and songs in Yoruba.

[Assistant] Recording the sculptor?

[User] The sculptor, right. Yes, because he was a storyteller as well as a sculptor. I was interested in him as a sculptor. So she introduced me to him. We became friends. Then I, I asked him if I could become his apprentice.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because the weather. I remember the weather and that's the dry period and it was there was some harmattan, so that would have been January and December, January period. It's about this same time that I make friends with a Yoruba sculptor through the friendship of this Peace Corps woman who was teaching in a different school. She was collecting oral history. She was in literature and she was recording him on stories and songs in Yoruba.

[Assistant] Recording the sculptor?

[User] The sculptor, right. Yes, because he was a storyteller as well as a sculptor. I was interested in him as a sculptor. So she introduced me to him. We became friends. Then I, I asked him if I could become his apprentice.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?

[User] Yes. Sanusi. Sanusi. S dot. Dot under the S. A-N-U-S-I. Sanusi.

[Assistant] Ok. That must be a Youbra special where you have a dot under the S.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The sculptor, right. Yes, because he was a storyteller as well as a sculptor. I was interested in him as a sculptor. So she introduced me to him. We became friends. Then I, I asked him if I could become his apprentice.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?

[User] Yes. Sanusi. Sanusi. S dot. Dot under the S. A-N-U-S-I. Sanusi.

[Assistant] Ok. That must be a Youbra special where you have a dot under the S.

[User] Yes, to make it the 'sh' sound. Yeah. Sanusi. And Sanusi came from the Adugbologe compound, one of the two most famous carving compounds in the city of Abeokuta. Adugbologe. And that's in Imere Quarter. I-M-E-R-E Quarter. And we made our agreement, he agreed to take me on and to teach me, but it had to be in my space, not at his family's compound, because he knew that his father would not approve. His father would have felt that he was giving away trade secrets by teaching me, a white person, a foreigner, carving techniques and secrets, and that I would then become competition to their compound of carvers because that's how they survived.

[Assistant] Sure. And how far away was the Sanusi compound?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Sanusi. Sanusi. S dot. Dot under the S. A-N-U-S-I. Sanusi.

[Assistant] Ok. That must be a Youbra special where you have a dot under the S.

[User] Yes, to make it the 'sh' sound. Yeah. Sanusi. And Sanusi came from the Adugbologe compound, one of the two most famous carving compounds in the city of Abeokuta. Adugbologe. And that's in Imere Quarter. I-M-E-R-E Quarter. And we made our agreement, he agreed to take me on and to teach me, but it had to be in my space, not at his family's compound, because he knew that his father would not approve. His father would have felt that he was giving away trade secrets by teaching me, a white person, a foreigner, carving techniques and secrets, and that I would then become competition to their compound of carvers because that's how they survived.

[Assistant] Sure. And how far away was the Sanusi compound?

[User] It was in another part of town, so it was about three or four miles away. It was in a fairly remote area, up in the hills on the other side of the town. So it was not close to where I lived. So he would come to my flat.

[Assistant] On a bicycle or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, to make it the 'sh' sound. Yeah. Sanusi. And Sanusi came from the Adugbologe compound, one of the two most famous carving compounds in the city of Abeokuta. Adugbologe. And that's in Imere Quarter. I-M-E-R-E Quarter. And we made our agreement, he agreed to take me on and to teach me, but it had to be in my space, not at his family's compound, because he knew that his father would not approve. His father would have felt that he was giving away trade secrets by teaching me, a white person, a foreigner, carving techniques and secrets, and that I would then become competition to their compound of carvers because that's how they survived.

[Assistant] Sure. And how far away was the Sanusi compound?

[User] It was in another part of town, so it was about three or four miles away. It was in a fairly remote area, up in the hills on the other side of the town. So it was not close to where I lived. So he would come to my flat.

[Assistant] On a bicycle or?

[User] Yeah, he would take public transportation, but mostly he would walk or three or four miles and with his tools or take his bike and come. And then we would work in one of my rooms, one of my front rooms that was empty in my flat.

[Assistant] And you'd start with a block of some kind of wood.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in another part of town, so it was about three or four miles away. It was in a fairly remote area, up in the hills on the other side of the town. So it was not close to where I lived. So he would come to my flat.

[Assistant] On a bicycle or?

[User] Yeah, he would take public transportation, but mostly he would walk or three or four miles and with his tools or take his bike and come. And then we would work in one of my rooms, one of my front rooms that was empty in my flat.

[Assistant] And you'd start with a block of some kind of wood.

[User] Yeah, we started from the basics. He would bring the wood and we would keep it soaked in water to keep it soft. Because he was using fresh wood. It wasn't aged or dried wood.

[Assistant] What kind of wood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we started from the basics. He would bring the wood and we would keep it soaked in water to keep it soft. Because he was using fresh wood. It wasn't aged or dried wood.

[Assistant] What kind of wood?

[User] Omo. It was called Omo, O-M-O, wood. And I've written about this experience and it's in the catalog called African Artistry: Technique and Aesthetics in Yoruba Sculpture, that I did for an exhibition at the High Museum in Atlanta in 1980. So that's a publication, and that whole essay is about this apprenticeship.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And this was the start of my understanding the importance of bodily knowledge, sensory knowledge, because what that apprenticeship taught me was that I could never really understand Yoruba carving techniques and aesthetics choices in style and form until I embodied it myself. And that's what apprenticeship is about, imitating your master, your instructor. So he would, you know, carve a bit and then he would on his piece of wood and then give me mine, and I would try to replicate what he was doing. And it took a long time because in the beginning, you know, you use an adze. So it's a chopping motion in the wood and you're trying to chop with great accuracy and force and not knowing how to use the tool. In the beginning, I would grip it tighter and tighter, trying to make it more and more accurate. And of course, it would be less and less accurate. And I was exhausted after three or four minutes. Whereas a master Yoruba sculptor can work from dawn to dusk without stop because he knows how to use his tools.

[Assistant] He's got a lighter touch on the grip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Omo. It was called Omo, O-M-O, wood. And I've written about this experience and it's in the catalog called African Artistry: Technique and Aesthetics in Yoruba Sculpture, that I did for an exhibition at the High Museum in Atlanta in 1980. So that's a publication, and that whole essay is about this apprenticeship.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And this was the start of my understanding the importance of bodily knowledge, sensory knowledge, because what that apprenticeship taught me was that I could never really understand Yoruba carving techniques and aesthetics choices in style and form until I embodied it myself. And that's what apprenticeship is about, imitating your master, your instructor. So he would, you know, carve a bit and then he would on his piece of wood and then give me mine, and I would try to replicate what he was doing. And it took a long time because in the beginning, you know, you use an adze. So it's a chopping motion in the wood and you're trying to chop with great accuracy and force and not knowing how to use the tool. In the beginning, I would grip it tighter and tighter, trying to make it more and more accurate. And of course, it would be less and less accurate. And I was exhausted after three or four minutes. Whereas a master Yoruba sculptor can work from dawn to dusk without stop because he knows how to use his tools.

[Assistant] He's got a lighter touch on the grip.

[User] Exactly. He has the bodily knowledge and wisdom of how to use his tool for carving his form. So that's an apprenticeship started, and we would work maybe two or three times a week. And I worked with him for about seven to eight months altogether.

[Assistant] And when you were working with him, your language was Yoruba.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And this was the start of my understanding the importance of bodily knowledge, sensory knowledge, because what that apprenticeship taught me was that I could never really understand Yoruba carving techniques and aesthetics choices in style and form until I embodied it myself. And that's what apprenticeship is about, imitating your master, your instructor. So he would, you know, carve a bit and then he would on his piece of wood and then give me mine, and I would try to replicate what he was doing. And it took a long time because in the beginning, you know, you use an adze. So it's a chopping motion in the wood and you're trying to chop with great accuracy and force and not knowing how to use the tool. In the beginning, I would grip it tighter and tighter, trying to make it more and more accurate. And of course, it would be less and less accurate. And I was exhausted after three or four minutes. Whereas a master Yoruba sculptor can work from dawn to dusk without stop because he knows how to use his tools.

[Assistant] He's got a lighter touch on the grip.

[User] Exactly. He has the bodily knowledge and wisdom of how to use his tool for carving his form. So that's an apprenticeship started, and we would work maybe two or three times a week. And I worked with him for about seven to eight months altogether.

[Assistant] And when you were working with him, your language was Yoruba.

[User] Yeah, it was basic, rudimentary Yoruba because he spoke very little English. But you see, the apprenticeship is observe and imitate.

[Assistant] Ok, not so much talk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. He has the bodily knowledge and wisdom of how to use his tool for carving his form. So that's an apprenticeship started, and we would work maybe two or three times a week. And I worked with him for about seven to eight months altogether.

[Assistant] And when you were working with him, your language was Yoruba.

[User] Yeah, it was basic, rudimentary Yoruba because he spoke very little English. But you see, the apprenticeship is observe and imitate.

[Assistant] Ok, not so much talk.

[User] No, it's all by action. It's the gesture. It's the form. It's the rhythm, it's the pace, it's the sound. It's all of those things that I had to know and try to emulate. It wasn't verbal instruction, very little. And I would pay him a fee for the time that he came and to teach me. And in the seven or eight months that we worked, I did maybe a total of six or eight pieces and then I did some pieces of my own after the end of the apprenticeship. And I still have, I have three or four of them that I show to my students here at the university.

[Assistant] So you brought those home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was basic, rudimentary Yoruba because he spoke very little English. But you see, the apprenticeship is observe and imitate.

[Assistant] Ok, not so much talk.

[User] No, it's all by action. It's the gesture. It's the form. It's the rhythm, it's the pace, it's the sound. It's all of those things that I had to know and try to emulate. It wasn't verbal instruction, very little. And I would pay him a fee for the time that he came and to teach me. And in the seven or eight months that we worked, I did maybe a total of six or eight pieces and then I did some pieces of my own after the end of the apprenticeship. And I still have, I have three or four of them that I show to my students here at the university.

[Assistant] So you brought those home.

[User] I brought those home. A number of ones I gave us to friends, and I don't know where they are now. And two or three of them were stolen from my apartment when I lived and taught in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm so sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's all by action. It's the gesture. It's the form. It's the rhythm, it's the pace, it's the sound. It's all of those things that I had to know and try to emulate. It wasn't verbal instruction, very little. And I would pay him a fee for the time that he came and to teach me. And in the seven or eight months that we worked, I did maybe a total of six or eight pieces and then I did some pieces of my own after the end of the apprenticeship. And I still have, I have three or four of them that I show to my students here at the university.

[Assistant] So you brought those home.

[User] I brought those home. A number of ones I gave us to friends, and I don't know where they are now. And two or three of them were stolen from my apartment when I lived and taught in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm so sorry.

[User] Well, I'm not so sorry. I mean, they found nothing else in the apartment that was worth stealing. So I feel very complimented by the fact that they thought maybe they had some authentic and therefore very, very expensive African art to sell to somebody. Yeah. So I lost two pieces, two or three pieces.

[Assistant] Of your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I brought those home. A number of ones I gave us to friends, and I don't know where they are now. And two or three of them were stolen from my apartment when I lived and taught in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Oh, I'm so sorry.

[User] Well, I'm not so sorry. I mean, they found nothing else in the apartment that was worth stealing. So I feel very complimented by the fact that they thought maybe they had some authentic and therefore very, very expensive African art to sell to somebody. Yeah. So I lost two pieces, two or three pieces.

[Assistant] Of your own?

[User] Of my own work, yeah. So that apprenticeship that changed me. It changed my life. It changed my direction because it was just at about that time that we started receiving information from Columbia University and from Teachers College. For those of us who had gone through the training program to encourage us to consider coming back to Columbia through graduate school. So this fusion of interest in Yoruba culture and Yoruba art and Yoruba history with Biobaku, were all things that then started to inform my consideration of going back to graduate school after the Peace Corps, which I did. I applied and was given a fellowship and work and stuff. And that's, but that's later. So but it was also a transformation in my relationship to Yoruba people and Yoruba community that I was living in. Because by the end of that first year, I was spending in that first year in Nigeria, I was still dependent upon, in a sense, and drawn to the other ex-patriots in the community, other British or Canadian or American volunteers.

[Assistant] The Western culture that is your own.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. But the second year I made a transition and I got out of that expat scene, which I liked less and less, and I moved much closer physically, emotionally, psychologically to the Yoruba community that I was living in. And learning from, my students, this master sculptor, my other Yoruba colleagues and other Yoruba friends. And that was a very important shift for me. And I saw how some of my colleagues did it and many did not. Many of them stayed in the safe space of expatriate community. But it was the second year of my stay that was really the transformative one and the one that I value the most because that's the one that's given me grounding and direction and commitment.

[Assistant] Yes. It's pointed the direction of the rest of your life?

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] While you were there, I'm remembering your first two weeks in homesickness and I'm remembering the closeness of your family. How were you able to stay in touch with your family to let them know how you were, what you were doing, what you were engaging in?

[User] By aerogram letters. The, you know, the thin paper blue paper ones that you then folded up and put glue on to seal and send on its way. Because I was doing that and along with my photographs, with slides that I was making, although

[Assistant] You sent them the slides?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] While you were there, I'm remembering your first two weeks in homesickness and I'm remembering the closeness of your family. How were you able to stay in touch with your family to let them know how you were, what you were doing, what you were engaging in?

[User] By aerogram letters. The, you know, the thin paper blue paper ones that you then folded up and put glue on to seal and send on its way. Because I was doing that and along with my photographs, with slides that I was making, although

[Assistant] You sent them the slides?

[User] Yeah, I also sent. To Kodak. I would send the film to Kodak for the processing, and then they would send the processed slides to my parents. So they were kind of being sent overseas in their packages.

[Assistant] Did you do audio cassette tape, voice recordings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By aerogram letters. The, you know, the thin paper blue paper ones that you then folded up and put glue on to seal and send on its way. Because I was doing that and along with my photographs, with slides that I was making, although

[Assistant] You sent them the slides?

[User] Yeah, I also sent. To Kodak. I would send the film to Kodak for the processing, and then they would send the processed slides to my parents. So they were kind of being sent overseas in their packages.

[Assistant] Did you do audio cassette tape, voice recordings?

[User] No, I didn't. Well, yes, I think I might have done one or two, but not very many. It was mostly the letters.

[Assistant] And the letter would take more than two days to get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I also sent. To Kodak. I would send the film to Kodak for the processing, and then they would send the processed slides to my parents. So they were kind of being sent overseas in their packages.

[Assistant] Did you do audio cassette tape, voice recordings?

[User] No, I didn't. Well, yes, I think I might have done one or two, but not very many. It was mostly the letters.

[Assistant] And the letter would take more than two days to get there?

[User] Yeah, it would take about take about two weeks to get and two weeks to come back from stage.

[Assistant] To get their reply, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't. Well, yes, I think I might have done one or two, but not very many. It was mostly the letters.

[Assistant] And the letter would take more than two days to get there?

[User] Yeah, it would take about take about two weeks to get and two weeks to come back from stage.

[Assistant] To get their reply, right?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So no iPhone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it would take about take about two weeks to get and two weeks to come back from stage.

[Assistant] To get their reply, right?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So no iPhone.

[User] No, no, no. It was long distance and slow communication. And that was OK. That was fine. Once I found my footing and started to position myself where I was physically.

[Assistant] Do you still have those letters? Did your parents save them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So no iPhone.

[User] No, no, no. It was long distance and slow communication. And that was OK. That was fine. Once I found my footing and started to position myself where I was physically.

[Assistant] Do you still have those letters? Did your parents save them?

[User] They did, and I have them.

[Assistant] You have them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. It was long distance and slow communication. And that was OK. That was fine. Once I found my footing and started to position myself where I was physically.

[Assistant] Do you still have those letters? Did your parents save them?

[User] They did, and I have them.

[Assistant] You have them.

[User] I have them somewhere in the HJD archive, in my garage.

[Assistant] Good. We'll talk about what you might do with those letters after the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did, and I have them.

[Assistant] You have them.

[User] I have them somewhere in the HJD archive, in my garage.

[Assistant] Good. We'll talk about what you might do with those letters after the interview.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So and your health throughout these two years, how were you holding up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have them somewhere in the HJD archive, in my garage.

[Assistant] Good. We'll talk about what you might do with those letters after the interview.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So and your health throughout these two years, how were you holding up?

[User] My health was good, I was good. I never had any malaria during the time. I don't remember any.

[Assistant] Did you take Aralen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So and your health throughout these two years, how were you holding up?

[User] My health was good, I was good. I never had any malaria during the time. I don't remember any.

[Assistant] Did you take Aralen?

[User] Yep, I did.

[Assistant] Once a week?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My health was good, I was good. I never had any malaria during the time. I don't remember any.

[Assistant] Did you take Aralen?

[User] Yep, I did.

[Assistant] Once a week?

[User] I think, yeah, I think I did. I think I was pretty conscientious about that. But I was living in a, you know, I was up on the second floor. So I was above the ground and I had a mosquito net over my bed and I had good accommodations, very comfortable. So it was only when I was doing travels that I, you know, might have been subject to malaria, but never experienced it and never had any serious health problems. My health has always been good.

[Assistant] That's great. Did Peace Corps ever come to visit, Peace Corps staff, come to visit you on site in Abeokuta?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, I did.

[Assistant] Once a week?

[User] I think, yeah, I think I did. I think I was pretty conscientious about that. But I was living in a, you know, I was up on the second floor. So I was above the ground and I had a mosquito net over my bed and I had good accommodations, very comfortable. So it was only when I was doing travels that I, you know, might have been subject to malaria, but never experienced it and never had any serious health problems. My health has always been good.

[Assistant] That's great. Did Peace Corps ever come to visit, Peace Corps staff, come to visit you on site in Abeokuta?

[User] Yes, I think once or twice in the two-year period, not often.

[Assistant] Gamma globulin shots and so forth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, yeah, I think I did. I think I was pretty conscientious about that. But I was living in a, you know, I was up on the second floor. So I was above the ground and I had a mosquito net over my bed and I had good accommodations, very comfortable. So it was only when I was doing travels that I, you know, might have been subject to malaria, but never experienced it and never had any serious health problems. My health has always been good.

[Assistant] That's great. Did Peace Corps ever come to visit, Peace Corps staff, come to visit you on site in Abeokuta?

[User] Yes, I think once or twice in the two-year period, not often.

[Assistant] Gamma globulin shots and so forth.

[User] Oh yeah, I think so. Maybe, but that was an Ibadan.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into Ibadan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think once or twice in the two-year period, not often.

[Assistant] Gamma globulin shots and so forth.

[User] Oh yeah, I think so. Maybe, but that was an Ibadan.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into Ibadan?

[User] I think I had to go into Ibadan for that kind of thing. And it was in Ibadan that I also ate. I became close friends with a very famous Yoruba sculptor, Fakeye.

[Assistant] Ah yes, I was going to ask if you had met him. Lamidi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I think so. Maybe, but that was an Ibadan.

[Assistant] Oh, you went into Ibadan?

[User] I think I had to go into Ibadan for that kind of thing. And it was in Ibadan that I also ate. I became close friends with a very famous Yoruba sculptor, Fakeye.

[Assistant] Ah yes, I was going to ask if you had met him. Lamidi.

[User] Lamidi. Yeah, because he had become friends with a number of the Americans in USIS, and they organized exhibitions of his work. And that's how his career really blossomed. And he took on apprentices. And one of those apprentices many years later, in 1970, when I was back doing my PhD research, was one of his apprentices was my co-carver when I was back at the University of Ife and we used to carve together. He had studied with Fakeye. Fakeye had always wanted me to come and apprentice under him when he found out that I was doing it in Abeokuta, he said you should come in and work with me. But Ibadan was too far away and it was, I didn't have any housing there. It wasn't convenient. And so it never happened. But we became close friends. And yeah, we'd go to his exhibitions and loved his work. And I've brought him here to Wisconsin to two times when he was coming to the States, he's now passed away. And we have one of his wonderful works in the permanent collection here.

[Assistant] Yes, I've seen it. It's gorgeous.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I had to go into Ibadan for that kind of thing. And it was in Ibadan that I also ate. I became close friends with a very famous Yoruba sculptor, Fakeye.

[Assistant] Ah yes, I was going to ask if you had met him. Lamidi.

[User] Lamidi. Yeah, because he had become friends with a number of the Americans in USIS, and they organized exhibitions of his work. And that's how his career really blossomed. And he took on apprentices. And one of those apprentices many years later, in 1970, when I was back doing my PhD research, was one of his apprentices was my co-carver when I was back at the University of Ife and we used to carve together. He had studied with Fakeye. Fakeye had always wanted me to come and apprentice under him when he found out that I was doing it in Abeokuta, he said you should come in and work with me. But Ibadan was too far away and it was, I didn't have any housing there. It wasn't convenient. And so it never happened. But we became close friends. And yeah, we'd go to his exhibitions and loved his work. And I've brought him here to Wisconsin to two times when he was coming to the States, he's now passed away. And we have one of his wonderful works in the permanent collection here.

[Assistant] Yes, I've seen it. It's gorgeous.

[User] Yeah, it's a beautiful piece.

[Assistant] He had a brother, Hakim, whose work is similar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lamidi. Yeah, because he had become friends with a number of the Americans in USIS, and they organized exhibitions of his work. And that's how his career really blossomed. And he took on apprentices. And one of those apprentices many years later, in 1970, when I was back doing my PhD research, was one of his apprentices was my co-carver when I was back at the University of Ife and we used to carve together. He had studied with Fakeye. Fakeye had always wanted me to come and apprentice under him when he found out that I was doing it in Abeokuta, he said you should come in and work with me. But Ibadan was too far away and it was, I didn't have any housing there. It wasn't convenient. And so it never happened. But we became close friends. And yeah, we'd go to his exhibitions and loved his work. And I've brought him here to Wisconsin to two times when he was coming to the States, he's now passed away. And we have one of his wonderful works in the permanent collection here.

[Assistant] Yes, I've seen it. It's gorgeous.

[User] Yeah, it's a beautiful piece.

[Assistant] He had a brother, Hakim, whose work is similar.

[User] Very similar. Yeah, very similar.

[Assistant] But Hakim didn't get the fame of his brother Lamidi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's a beautiful piece.

[Assistant] He had a brother, Hakim, whose work is similar.

[User] Very similar. Yeah, very similar.

[Assistant] But Hakim didn't get the fame of his brother Lamidi.

[User] No. Yeah, Lamidi, he was the master. Lots of imitators. But he was the master. And then it was in those years in the seventies when he got a position at the University of Ife as their resident artist, and he was teaching the wood sculpture section in the art department.

[Assistant] And that was when you went back after Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very similar. Yeah, very similar.

[Assistant] But Hakim didn't get the fame of his brother Lamidi.

[User] No. Yeah, Lamidi, he was the master. Lots of imitators. But he was the master. And then it was in those years in the seventies when he got a position at the University of Ife as their resident artist, and he was teaching the wood sculpture section in the art department.

[Assistant] And that was when you went back after Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, this was after Peace Corps, right. Because I, you know, I was there in Nigeria until August of '66, then started graduate school soon after. And, you know, in September of '66, and it was in June of, May, June of '70 when I finished all my coursework and was ABD that I went back to Nigeria to do my field research for the PhD. And it was that time that I was at Ife, affiliated with Ife. So let's see. So, that's for the two years in Nigeria. When I was leaving to come back to the States, I decided that was my one opportunity to do my roots journey.

[Assistant] On your way home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Yeah, Lamidi, he was the master. Lots of imitators. But he was the master. And then it was in those years in the seventies when he got a position at the University of Ife as their resident artist, and he was teaching the wood sculpture section in the art department.

[Assistant] And that was when you went back after Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah, this was after Peace Corps, right. Because I, you know, I was there in Nigeria until August of '66, then started graduate school soon after. And, you know, in September of '66, and it was in June of, May, June of '70 when I finished all my coursework and was ABD that I went back to Nigeria to do my field research for the PhD. And it was that time that I was at Ife, affiliated with Ife. So let's see. So, that's for the two years in Nigeria. When I was leaving to come back to the States, I decided that was my one opportunity to do my roots journey.

[Assistant] On your way home?

[User] On my way home.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's hear it. Where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On my way home.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's hear it. Where did you go?

[User] Well, this was during the heat of the Cold War and therefore to go to Russia, because I wanted to go to Russia. I wanted to go to the USSR. You had to go through Intourist, which was the official government. And Americans were not free to travel anywhere in the USSR, but I was able to get a visa to go to Moscow thinking that maybe I could get down to the Ukraine where my grandfather had come from or Belarus. But in fact, it never happened. But I got my visa, so my first trip. From Nigeria, I flew to Egypt and I spent about a week in Egypt.

[Assistant] From Lagos?

[User] To Cairo. Cairo. And I spent a week in Egypt and I went up the Nile to Luxor and explored some of those incredible sights. Got a sense, a little bit of a sense of Egypt. And then from Cairo, I flew to I think it was Lebanon and it was a one-day stopover. So I don't remember much about Beirut. And then from there I flew to Moscow.

[Assistant] So you had to procure your visa for Russia in Nigeria, in Lagos, somehow at the embassies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this was during the heat of the Cold War and therefore to go to Russia, because I wanted to go to Russia. I wanted to go to the USSR. You had to go through Intourist, which was the official government. And Americans were not free to travel anywhere in the USSR, but I was able to get a visa to go to Moscow thinking that maybe I could get down to the Ukraine where my grandfather had come from or Belarus. But in fact, it never happened. But I got my visa, so my first trip. From Nigeria, I flew to Egypt and I spent about a week in Egypt.

[Assistant] From Lagos?

[User] To Cairo. Cairo. And I spent a week in Egypt and I went up the Nile to Luxor and explored some of those incredible sights. Got a sense, a little bit of a sense of Egypt. And then from Cairo, I flew to I think it was Lebanon and it was a one-day stopover. So I don't remember much about Beirut. And then from there I flew to Moscow.

[Assistant] So you had to procure your visa for Russia in Nigeria, in Lagos, somehow at the embassies?

[User] At the Russian Embassy in Lagos, yeah. That's how I got that.

[Assistant] That must have taken some time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Cairo. Cairo. And I spent a week in Egypt and I went up the Nile to Luxor and explored some of those incredible sights. Got a sense, a little bit of a sense of Egypt. And then from Cairo, I flew to I think it was Lebanon and it was a one-day stopover. So I don't remember much about Beirut. And then from there I flew to Moscow.

[Assistant] So you had to procure your visa for Russia in Nigeria, in Lagos, somehow at the embassies?

[User] At the Russian Embassy in Lagos, yeah. That's how I got that.

[Assistant] That must have taken some time.

[User] A little bit of time. Yeah, yeah. And it was very restrictive. And during that time when I landed in Moscow, you couldn't spend any money. You had to pay for these meal tickets. And you had to eat in the restaurants that were set aside for foreigners, tourists, visitors. So I was there in these places, these government run cafeterias for foreigners, and that's not what I had come for.

[Assistant] No, no, that's not what you wanted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the Russian Embassy in Lagos, yeah. That's how I got that.

[Assistant] That must have taken some time.

[User] A little bit of time. Yeah, yeah. And it was very restrictive. And during that time when I landed in Moscow, you couldn't spend any money. You had to pay for these meal tickets. And you had to eat in the restaurants that were set aside for foreigners, tourists, visitors. So I was there in these places, these government run cafeterias for foreigners, and that's not what I had come for.

[Assistant] No, no, that's not what you wanted.

[User] When I was at Hamilton, I studied Russian for two years. I didn't remember much of it, but it helped me start to have conversations and I found my way to some, to some Russian folks. But it was only in the last two or three days of my 10 day stay that I was able to converse. You know, enough of my Russian had come back. But then it was too late and I couldn't leave Moscow and there was no way to get to the Ukraine. So that was my roots journey. And then from Moscow, I flew to Berlin. What would have been, yeah, West Berlin. Met Peter Crone again and spent some time with him.

[Assistant] This is your third time now with Peter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit of time. Yeah, yeah. And it was very restrictive. And during that time when I landed in Moscow, you couldn't spend any money. You had to pay for these meal tickets. And you had to eat in the restaurants that were set aside for foreigners, tourists, visitors. So I was there in these places, these government run cafeterias for foreigners, and that's not what I had come for.

[Assistant] No, no, that's not what you wanted.

[User] When I was at Hamilton, I studied Russian for two years. I didn't remember much of it, but it helped me start to have conversations and I found my way to some, to some Russian folks. But it was only in the last two or three days of my 10 day stay that I was able to converse. You know, enough of my Russian had come back. But then it was too late and I couldn't leave Moscow and there was no way to get to the Ukraine. So that was my roots journey. And then from Moscow, I flew to Berlin. What would have been, yeah, West Berlin. Met Peter Crone again and spent some time with him.

[Assistant] This is your third time now with Peter.

[User] Well, he yeah, third time, since he lived with us in Hempstead. And then when I went to see him in '61 and then '66. And I've seen him since then too. And then from West Berlin, I flew back to New York and met my family, met me at JFK. And in the exchange of greetings as I got off the plane, all they could do was laugh because I was speaking Nigerian English and I couldn't hear it. They said, is that you, Henry? And all they could do was laugh, and I didn't know what they were laughing at. So that was the return. The return experience, because my speech patterns had changed completely in order to make myself understandable to my students in Nigeria.

[Assistant] And you speak special English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he yeah, third time, since he lived with us in Hempstead. And then when I went to see him in '61 and then '66. And I've seen him since then too. And then from West Berlin, I flew back to New York and met my family, met me at JFK. And in the exchange of greetings as I got off the plane, all they could do was laugh because I was speaking Nigerian English and I couldn't hear it. They said, is that you, Henry? And all they could do was laugh, and I didn't know what they were laughing at. So that was the return. The return experience, because my speech patterns had changed completely in order to make myself understandable to my students in Nigeria.

[Assistant] And you speak special English.

[User] Yeah. And if I meet a Yoruba person, I fall back into it immediately.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And then the other thing that they also marveled at was my sitting there at the first meal that we shared, putting piles of salt and pepper on my food because it was tasteless to me after.

[Assistant] Oh, after all the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And if I meet a Yoruba person, I fall back into it immediately.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And then the other thing that they also marveled at was my sitting there at the first meal that we shared, putting piles of salt and pepper on my food because it was tasteless to me after.

[Assistant] Oh, after all the.

[User] The pepper of two years of Nigerian cuisine. So.

[Assistant] Transitions happen in both directions


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then the other thing that they also marveled at was my sitting there at the first meal that we shared, putting piles of salt and pepper on my food because it was tasteless to me after.

[Assistant] Oh, after all the.

[User] The pepper of two years of Nigerian cuisine. So.

[Assistant] Transitions happen in both directions

[User] Both directions, yeah, and in fact, coming home, I think it's tougher than going away.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You look at, you begin to get a view of your own country. Did that change for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The pepper of two years of Nigerian cuisine. So.

[Assistant] Transitions happen in both directions

[User] Both directions, yeah, and in fact, coming home, I think it's tougher than going away.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You look at, you begin to get a view of your own country. Did that change for you?

[User] Oh yeah, very much, very much. I strongly advocate that every American should have an experience outside, a serious cross-cultural experience, in order to understand their own country in the world system because we get a very different view. As I like to say, we think we have a free press. We don't, we have a bought press, we have a paid-for press, and we only hear what those payers want us to hear and see. So that was a real eye-opener, and every American should have that experience.

[Assistant] Anything else that you'd like to put on record about your two years in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They come in, and they’re working hard day to day, but they may be in an office environment or somewhere else.

[Assistant] When you come in as an intern or co-op those things are always on your schedule, so you get to go see them. That’s a shame that the students see them but not everyone does.

[User] Not everybody gets to do that.

[Assistant] You mentioned JSC 2.016. Then there was another iteration, 2.017. Can you talk about those iterations? You talked about the new mission statement. Can you elaborate on that a bit more?

[User] After the first year and a half or so of JSC 2.0, I wanted to think about how do I maintain momentum in really trying to continuously get people to consider how can we do things differently here. I would generally have a retreat with the senior staff near the beginning of the calendar year, and we would try to set out a few goals, maybe around four or so, again that the senior staff would really focus on. I just mentioned what we called SAFE, which was the Strategic Acquisition Forecasting One, the one that talked about contracts.\n\n Every year we were setting out these goals at the beginning of the year. I guess it wasn’t until last year that we had the idea, I think maybe it was the External Relations Office, of branding it with the year. So instead of here’s this year’s 2.0 larger goals, we’ll call it 2.016—and this year we followed that with 2.017—and brand it a little bit more around it and be able to give a little bit more focus on it so people around the Center could know what it was that we were focused on as a senior staff and how we were working that, and hopefully a lot of people would be involved in that as well.

[Assistant] I thought it was kind of ingenious when I heard it. It definitely stuck in my mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We definitely, from the Center Director Office, support every launch over there. Either I will go or Mark Geyer or Melanie [W. Saunders] as the Associate Director goes to every launch. Typically, I’ve been going once a year and then the other three are covered by Mark or Melanie. Of course it’s really Kazakhstan, not so much Russia. We stop in Russia in order to get on the charter flight that’s arranged for us there to go to Kazakhstan, but we actually spend most of the time in Kazakhstan at the launch.\n\n I think that’s incredibly important. It’s our people that are launching there, and of course we, [JSC], play the key role in coordinating all of the International Space Station activities. I think having that presence is important for the crew to know that we are paying attention and that this is a huge deal, and then just for the Program in general.

[Assistant] Any traditions that you participate in when you go over there? I’m sure that there’s quite a few.

[User] We are present at the state commission that happens generally the day before launch. There’s usually some toasting that goes on after the commission, which is an important part of any Russian endeavor. Of course we participate in that. Then we’re out at the launch [viewing] site for the actual launch participating in that.

[Assistant] Were you out there for the launch of [Scott J.] Kelly or Peggy [A. Whitson] on the recent flights?

[User] I was at Scott Kelly’s first Expedition launch but not the one that launched the beginning of the one-year mission.

[Assistant] Beginning of the one-year mission, yes. For Peggy were you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are present at the state commission that happens generally the day before launch. There’s usually some toasting that goes on after the commission, which is an important part of any Russian endeavor. Of course we participate in that. Then we’re out at the launch [viewing] site for the actual launch participating in that.

[Assistant] Were you out there for the launch of [Scott J.] Kelly or Peggy [A. Whitson] on the recent flights?

[User] I was at Scott Kelly’s first Expedition launch but not the one that launched the beginning of the one-year mission.

[Assistant] Beginning of the one-year mission, yes. For Peggy were you there?

[User] I wasn’t there for Peggy’s, no. I forget who went to that one.

[Assistant] Would you talk about some of your relationships with our international partners?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a number of different conversations about it but again really tried to put it in context. The decision was actually made when Mike [Michael L.] Coats was Center Director. He was really the one that was interfacing with them initially. I would say I just continued to get some questions after I became the Center Director and really tried to talk about the process that the Agency was going through at that time. I will say the arc jet decision was made a little bit ahead of the whole Technical Capability Assessment Team, but it was leading into that.

[Assistant] Are you getting any flak about tearing down the LRL [Lunar Receiving Lab, Building 37] given its historic qualities? I know that the building is in bad shape. My understanding is the foundation is splitting in two.

[User] Whenever we do anything where there was something historic that happened there we do work with the State Historic Preservation Office. Usually you try to collect a bunch of information, whether it’s blueprints, photographs, and put together information before you do something like that.\n\n But we’ve got to move on. Believe me, if you saw the difference between the old and the new, you’d realize how excited people are. They’re moving in as we speak. Really really excited to be able to operate in the new building.

[Assistant] Yes, no doubt.

[User] It really supports what we’ve been trying to do under JSC 2.0 about collaborating more across divisions and organizations and not being as stovepiped with the way the labs are set up there. Here we have labs in seven different buildings. If you work in the one lab you may never see anybody that works in another lab. We have more of an open lab concept over there, and people who use certain kinds of equipment can actually share them instead of labs having separate ones, which just adds to the cost. You get more of that dialogue between the different scientists and researchers as well, which we think will really enhance our ability to produce good science.

[Assistant] Yes, and it’s a beautiful building, it really is nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whenever we do anything where there was something historic that happened there we do work with the State Historic Preservation Office. Usually you try to collect a bunch of information, whether it’s blueprints, photographs, and put together information before you do something like that.\n\n But we’ve got to move on. Believe me, if you saw the difference between the old and the new, you’d realize how excited people are. They’re moving in as we speak. Really really excited to be able to operate in the new building.

[Assistant] Yes, no doubt.

[User] It really supports what we’ve been trying to do under JSC 2.0 about collaborating more across divisions and organizations and not being as stovepiped with the way the labs are set up there. Here we have labs in seven different buildings. If you work in the one lab you may never see anybody that works in another lab. We have more of an open lab concept over there, and people who use certain kinds of equipment can actually share them instead of labs having separate ones, which just adds to the cost. You get more of that dialogue between the different scientists and researchers as well, which we think will really enhance our ability to produce good science.

[Assistant] Yes, and it’s a beautiful building, it really is nice.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Last time we talked about partnerships. I wonder if you would talk about some of the more successful partnerships that have come about as a result of [JSC] 2.0 and why you think they’ve been so successful or why you’re so proud of those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, so we had eight days, had seven scheduled and an extra one.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you heard mission control said—

[User] “Wow!” We cheered. “Great!” Because we really had a busy time with just two people. This was an engineering test flight, and we had a flight plan full of stuff, and people fighting over, sticking in their stuff. So there was always something that you were watching the clock on. You had to do this coming up. We did have sleep periods, which we would use for window gazing, some part of it, because you don’t need as much sleep as they were scheduling. But when they said, “Wave off,” I remembered getting in the recycle book, going through the pages, shutting down some of the computers, opening the doors again, and I got all the way down, all of the sudden, I turned the page, and there was nothing on it, and there was this realization, hey, this is free time, and it was terrific.\n\n We got out of the suits, and then we got something to eat and watched the world, and I wouldn’t have had it any other way, if it had been my choice. In fact, we flew right over White Sands, where our landing site was. Just happened to be in the reentry attitude and we stayed in it. So we went half way around the world. The nose was pointing straight down, and as I looked up, I could see this monster dust storm going on there. It looked like it was all headed for Texas, the dust in the valley there. It was a clearly good decision. It looked really bad down there.

[Assistant] Yes, while you guys were having a, as you mentioned, free day, they were very busy down at White Sands preparing for your arrival.

[User] Yes. Well, they were ready for us because we knew we were going there. This [Edwards AFB] was underwater out here. That’s why they gave up on that.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about the landing? Was there anything different or any test procedures that you were working on with the landing that came in for STS-3? Anything different that you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, that’s what you’re paid for, though.

[Assistant] And getting the crew home on time. At least when you were going to do the landing, you were landing at some place where you felt was home. You were coming back to Edwards.

[User] Yes, that was definitely—and I was real familiar with White Sands, too, because we did most of our STA training there. So it wasn’t like a strange place at all. But we did more dives at the ground there than here or anywhere else.\n\n How are we doing on time?

[Assistant] Well, let me just stop this for a second. [Tape recorder turned off.]

[User] —yes, I think pretty well I’ve talked about the great feeling when we got down, and we’d endured our engine loss and takeoff and wrapped it all up, came back here with a great feeling of accomplishment. We knew we’d also face challenges with getting the instrument-pointing system operating. It didn’t work worth a hoot to start. So the whole crew had a hand in recovering from what could have been a real bust, to a great flight.

[Assistant] The times before when you had been in the Orbiter landing, there had been a couple of issues that attributed to some needed-to-be adjustments to the software. When you landed, did you feel like everything was in place to have a smooth landing when you brought that Orbiter home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was definitely—and I was real familiar with White Sands, too, because we did most of our STA training there. So it wasn’t like a strange place at all. But we did more dives at the ground there than here or anywhere else.\n\n How are we doing on time?

[Assistant] Well, let me just stop this for a second. [Tape recorder turned off.]

[User] —yes, I think pretty well I’ve talked about the great feeling when we got down, and we’d endured our engine loss and takeoff and wrapped it all up, came back here with a great feeling of accomplishment. We knew we’d also face challenges with getting the instrument-pointing system operating. It didn’t work worth a hoot to start. So the whole crew had a hand in recovering from what could have been a real bust, to a great flight.

[Assistant] The times before when you had been in the Orbiter landing, there had been a couple of issues that attributed to some needed-to-be adjustments to the software. When you landed, did you feel like everything was in place to have a smooth landing when you brought that Orbiter home?

[User] Yes, I thought the Orbiter handled great, and it had some refinements since the Approach and Landing Tests. And so I made a landing I was proud of, very smooth and a nice touch-down, and right where I wanted it. We worried about the center of gravity [CG] was further forward than it had ever been because all of our gear was still in the payload bay. So we were heavy, forward CG, but we got the nose down smoothly and rolled to a stop out here. So I had no suggestions for flight control improvements.

[Assistant] Wow. Maybe somebody was surprised to hear that. [Laughs]\n\n After you landed, was there a difference of your adjustment back to Earth than it was for your first mission, or did you feel like your body and your physical being had adjusted well each time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To drop bombs on them? Well, they were, too, and on that line, Sergi Borisev was the man to pull off. He was the pilot for all the tests, flew all the flights. He flew with me when I flew.\n\n We invited him over here, and I gave him a ride in an F-18, and he was here for a week, which he was just jazzed about, naturally, and he’s a former fighter pilot. It turned out we were flying the SR-71 that day, and so I was able, when it was coming smoking back, he was out there by the Colorado River at Mach 2, coming back for a landing. We got him on radar and intercepted and pulled up alongside, let him fly it, you know, SR-71, as mysterious an airplane to the Russians. As a matter of fact, Borisev had been flying MiG-23s up near the Baltic [Sea], an interceptor aircraft, making passes at SRs flying by, trying to intercept it, which he didn’t succeed much because it was smoking at Mach 3 when it went by. And here he is now in an American airplane, we’re pulling up on the wing of it. So that’s kind of cool, really.

[Assistant] Surreal for him, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes, both sides, and we talked about it that way. He’s a good guy, you know. It’s not surprising they’ve got all the same interests we do. We’re on opposite sides by a fluke, not by any basic inherent difference, just personally.

[Assistant] Just people and pilots.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You also worked on the development of the propulsion-controlled aircraft systems. Would you like to talk with us about—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, both sides, and we talked about it that way. He’s a good guy, you know. It’s not surprising they’ve got all the same interests we do. We’re on opposite sides by a fluke, not by any basic inherent difference, just personally.

[Assistant] Just people and pilots.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You also worked on the development of the propulsion-controlled aircraft systems. Would you like to talk with us about—

[User] Yes, that was unique and different, not been done before. Bill Burcham is the guy that came up with pursuing this concept, of being able to fly an airplane that’s lost all its hydraulics and, therefore, its ability to move its flight controls, and by just nudging the thrust carefully, get the airplane back on the ground, which is what the crew of United 232 did in Sioux City [Iowa] with some success, although a lot of people were killed.\n\n We took it beyond that, making an autopilot basically, that uses the engines as control effectors, rather than the normal controls, and had tremendous success, really, with an F-15 and a MD-11, all the way to touch-down in both cases, without having moved the controls. Locked up the controls, not that I couldn’t have taken over, should it be necessary. But without cheating, got the airplanes on the ground. A great example of why working here is so much fun. You get to do something new and different.

[Assistant] Well, another thing that you did that was new and different was you launched a satellite into orbit with Pegasus [launch vehicle]. Tell us about that experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know if I’d—it’d be hard for me to write it, again, because that’s protracted over all that time and came out so good, and the war stories that go along with it, hard to beat that one. But I wouldn’t do the whole career any different. I’ve really been lucky to come here and at my advanced stage still fly in F-18s and other airplanes. It’s just like I’ve always dreamed of, and I’m still getting paid for it.

[Assistant] So let’s end it on that one. I have heard several times in our conversations today, as well as read, that the thing you love to do most is fly planes. Do you have a favorite of all the ones that you fly?

[User] I’m often asked that. I’ve had favorites as they go along that have been impressive. If I had to go back and pick one, it’s hard. It’s hard to beat the F-18 for pure kick to fly, pilot-friendly airplane. But flying the bigger airplanes is more of a challenge, really. Fighters are easy to fly. Big ones are really different from one to the next, and flying them with engine failures and that sort of thing are a bigger challenges. So there’s some maybe more higher level of satisfaction of mastering such a beast, like a B-52. And so my favorite one is the one I happen to be in.

[Assistant] The perfect answer.\n\n Is there anything else you’d like to add today before we close?

[User] I think not. With every incident I’ve described, in the back of my mind, there are six others I could talk about. I’d hate to be the person that has to listen to all this, or much less type it up, but I’m happy to share what I have and hope it’s of some use to somebody sometime somewhere.

[Assistant] It will be, and it was extremely interesting hearing all the things that we had time for you to share. So I thank you again for your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think counting Jim [James C.] Fletcher twice. Right.

[Assistant] Yes. How does your leadership style differ from the ones that have come before you?

[User] I don’t know that I can answer that one, Rebecca. You might need to ask other people that. I can’t self-assess. I don’t know how to give you a fair assessment of what I do or how I do it. I have my own innate characteristics, but I think you’d have to get others to compare and contrast me with prior Administrators.

[Assistant] I remember hearing that one of your most recommended books is one that was about Jim [James E.] Webb and his leadership style.

[User] I was nineteen when Webb left the agency in ’68, but even as a teenager I paid a lot of attention to Webb’s management style and tactics, and more so later on. I certainly am an admirer of Jim Webb’s. He did an awful lot of things right.

[Assistant] Would you like to share some of those and how you’ve possibly put some of those in action here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was nineteen when Webb left the agency in ’68, but even as a teenager I paid a lot of attention to Webb’s management style and tactics, and more so later on. I certainly am an admirer of Jim Webb’s. He did an awful lot of things right.

[Assistant] Would you like to share some of those and how you’ve possibly put some of those in action here?

[User] Well, Webb was a guy who very clearly, in the light of history—and Steve Dick can comment on this. But Webb was a guy who listened to an awful lot of different people, many of whom did not agree among themselves, but that was okay, and nor did they necessarily agree with Webb. Very clearly, he didn’t mind that. He was comfortable with argument and a certain amount of dissent, knowing that he had to make the final decision, because that was his job, but he seems, in light of history, to have been somebody who was comfortable hearing from a very wide range of people, whether they agreed with him or not, before making a decision, and that’s a characteristic I try to employ.\n\n Webb was someone who understood, and very explicitly understood in his makeup of the Administrator’s Office, that he himself did not bring all the necessary skills to the Administrator’s Office to do the job. The job is a very big job. It is technical. It is scientific. It is political. It is managerial. Webb brought several of those talents and brought them in abundance, but he didn’t bring them all.\n\n So he augmented himself with Hugh [L.] Dryden as his Deputy, a very esteemed aeronautical scientist from the early days of aircraft flight, and Bob [Robert C.] Seamans [Jr.] as his Associate Administrator. I’ve characterized that position at NASA as being like the Chief Operating Officer, which I think is accurate, and Bob was and remains a good manager.

[Assistant] So would you say you’ve modeled your top management after that?

[User] I’ve modeled the construct after that, because I believe that it works. Now, I bring a different set of specialties than Webb himself brought

[Assistant] He came from OMB [Office of Management and Budget].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We could have been on Mars by now easily, and the paper demonstrates that as well.

[Assistant] I was born the same year you were, and they were saying that humans would be on Mars in 1984.

[User] Yes, and they could have been. And they could have been. See, what needs to be understood is that we spent $25 billion building and flying Apollo, and of that 21 [billion] was in building it, and 4 billion was in flying it. So we spent 80 percent of the money of the Apollo era building a capability, which we used to go to the Moon half a dozen times and then threw it away.

[Assistant] So why was that bad decision made?

[User] Well, that I don’t know. You, Steve, are the historian. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I wanted your opinion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that I don’t know. You, Steve, are the historian. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I wanted your opinion.

[User] I can’t get inside the mind of President Nixon and other policy makers at the time. I simply know that it is irrefutably true that even for the lower budgets of the time, because of the severe inflation that we encountered in the seventies, the Vietnam War, despite all of those things, in constant dollars we had enough money to conduct a very robust space program, had we chosen not to build the Shuttle. But the Shuttle was the logical outcome of a decision that was first made, which was we would cancel Apollo, and then the question was, well, then what, right?\n\n So we as a nation allowed a very poor set of policy choices to be made. I think you’d have to cast a wide net through history to find such an unproductive ratio of expenditures in developing any new capability. In developing any new capability, a given society must undergo the design, the development, the construction, and then transition into operations, and to spend 80 percent of the money that was spent on the effort in design, development, and construction, spend 20 percent of the money using it, and then throwing it away, I think you’d have to look hard to find a society making such a choice, and I think it was a poor choice.\n\n Now, I was saying so at the time, but I was, you know, in my young twenties.

[Assistant] Nobody listened.

[User] Of course not. Of course not, and probably they shouldn’t have. There were many others also saying that this is a poor choice, and they weren’t listened to, either. As I’ve gotten older, received wisdom has tended to come more toward my position, but my position hasn’t changed. The public perception has changed, that looking back on it, people say, “That wasn’t the best choice.”

[Assistant] So it sounds as if you think that knowledge of history and NASA history in particular can be useful for current policy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’ve read all the books on space, I think, that have been published, but more importantly, I’ve read more widely in history. I often use these historical references in my speeches. People think that what we do today is unique. We talk about putting crew on [International Space] Station for six months at a time as arduous duty, and we talk about developing a lunar base with a six-month crew rotation or sending people on voyages to Mars that will last three years.\n\n Unless I point it out in a speech, who today understands that on Captain [James] Cook’s first voyage, wherein he discovered Australia, he and his people were gone for three years, with no communication home. By the time his crew complement was complete, he had 102 people on board and only lost 38 of them on that voyage, only lost 38 crew, and upon his return home was praised for his great economy in husbanding the lives of his crew. And we talk about a three-year voyage to Mars and making 99 percent certain that no one will die, I mean, who are we kidding? We’ve lost sight of history.

[Assistant] This gets into the whole area of risk in exploration, which maybe we can discuss at the end if we have time.

[User] That’s another issue. I’m sorry; I’m too long-winded for your questions.

[Assistant] No. No, this is exactly what we’re looking for. But you talked about history, and let me ask you, though, a little about the future. You mentioned that you get a great deal of external advice on how to make decisions. We know that the Vision for Exploration gives you an agenda of what needs to be done.

[User] A template, yes.

[Assistant] And you get external advice from other folks. How do you determine what the priorities are going to be for NASA, and what factors do you think over the next few years will change those priorities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fortunately, wiser heads have prevailed. The fundamental purpose of NASA as a space agency is to explore the universe that we can reach with humans and robots. That’s the fundamental purpose, and it’s an and, not an or.

[Assistant] I think you could argue, the premier agency for exploration of the world, couldn’t you?

[User] And that as well, but the world is part of the universe. We look down, we look up, and we travel outward. And all those things are important, and it is to me very narrow thinking, narrow thinking in the extreme, for any constituency to say, “Well, my part is worth doing, but these other parts are not worth doing.” I could not more profoundly disapprove of that view.

[Assistant]
You won’t get any argument from me.

NASA’s foundation was built on NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], and NACA was so much a part of studies that affected aeronautical research. What is that role now for NASA, and what do you see for it in the future?

[User] I don’t see nearly as big a role as I wish I saw. There is still much to be learned about flight within the atmosphere, flight within atmospheres. We’re not going to do space exploration at any planet with an atmosphere, even a residual one like Mars, without a heavy investment in aeronautical research that has not yet been done. Right now we’re limited to the Viking entry envelope in terms of our thinking about aero entry at Mars. That’s silly. We should be well beyond that by now.\n\n There is an enormous amount to be learned about flight within our own atmosphere, to doing it more economically, safer, more efficiently, more quietly, and in a way that provides better service to more people. We’re not spending as a nation as much on aeronautics as I believe should be spent.

[Assistant] Do you see that role changing at all for NASA in the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] —and now it’s about 1 percent.

[User] About six-tenths of a percent.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So your point would be what?

[Assistant] What is your thought on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, do you follow that argument?

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] I wish more people did. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Or took it to heart.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] On that same train of thought, we all know that NASA celebrates its fiftieth anniversary next year. Share with us what you believe to be NASA’s impact on society in the past and now and even in the future.