[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she then went on to, she was married.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You might not believe it, but I hardly didn't even hold hands with her in the three weeks. It's just, we were traveling companions and she'd studied Ethiopia, and so I learned a lot about it. And that's where I met, stayed at John Coyne's house.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so after that three weeks, I knew what I was going to do. I was really going to make good use of those 26 stops. And time was not of the essence.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're still avoiding readjustment or coming back. Well, you finally got back to San Francisco.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You might not believe it, but I hardly didn't even hold hands with her in the three weeks. It's just, we were traveling companions and she'd studied Ethiopia, and so I learned a lot about it. And that's where I met, stayed at John Coyne's house.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so after that three weeks, I knew what I was going to do. I was really going to make good use of those 26 stops. And time was not of the essence.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're still avoiding readjustment or coming back. Well, you finally got back to San Francisco.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you'd been on the road for quite a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you'd been on the road for quite a while.

[User] Seven and a half months.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Or seven months, because I still then, it took me about a week to get to Three Rivers, Michigan.

[Assistant] Right. So the return culture shock must have been sort of diffuse, I mean, because you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in Hawaii, of course, all of a sudden I stayed at the Y, YMCA, and all these vets were on R&R from Vietnam.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And the music, the loud music. I mean, it was just a cacophony. But two people from Three Rivers, Michigan, lived in.

[Assistant] Hawaii?

[User] Honolulu. And so I had dinner with them. I had dinner with one couple, and then they took me over the other couple because I didn't know them. And so I had a more gradual coming in, but I was in shocked in Honolulu.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Because of the military, because of the music, because of the mix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the music, the loud music. I mean, it was just a cacophony. But two people from Three Rivers, Michigan, lived in.

[Assistant] Hawaii?

[User] Honolulu. And so I had dinner with them. I had dinner with one couple, and then they took me over the other couple because I didn't know them. And so I had a more gradual coming in, but I was in shocked in Honolulu.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Because of the military, because of the music, because of the mix?

[User] All of the above.

[Assistant] Okay. You finally get your, work your way back to Three Rivers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Honolulu. And so I had dinner with them. I had dinner with one couple, and then they took me over the other couple because I didn't know them. And so I had a more gradual coming in, but I was in shocked in Honolulu.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Because of the military, because of the music, because of the mix?

[User] All of the above.

[Assistant] Okay. You finally get your, work your way back to Three Rivers.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you still face the question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of the above.

[Assistant] Okay. You finally get your, work your way back to Three Rivers.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you still face the question.

[User] And I.

[Assistant] While you were in Kenya, had you done anything to find out about programs or do any job search?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you still face the question.

[User] And I.

[Assistant] While you were in Kenya, had you done anything to find out about programs or do any job search?

[User] I did not.

[Assistant] Did you ever consider trying to go to work for the Peace Corps? Was there any, ever any contact about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did not.

[Assistant] Did you ever consider trying to go to work for the Peace Corps? Was there any, ever any contact about that?

[User] You know, it's funny and that, because of my language not being really a good Peace Corps volunteer and not learning the language.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I really had not really thought that I would make a good staff member. You know, I kind of deselected myself from going further.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, now you're back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really had not really thought that I would make a good staff member. You know, I kind of deselected myself from going further.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, now you're back.

[User] And I really had, other than maybe thinking of going back and teaching in Flint, Michigan, I had not given serious thought about horrendous changes. But I did, when I got back to Three Rivers, I thought, well, I want to try the political stuff. And so I did hitchhike to Washington. And spent ten days in Washington seeing Don Riegle and Bill Steiger, who was a Republican from Oshkosh, Wisconsin, who I knew.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because he was had young Republicans in Oshkosh, but nobody had an opening for me. Nobody was willing to extend one. So I went back to Three Rivers.

[Assistant] You had readjustment allowance, I think, which was a, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I really had, other than maybe thinking of going back and teaching in Flint, Michigan, I had not given serious thought about horrendous changes. But I did, when I got back to Three Rivers, I thought, well, I want to try the political stuff. And so I did hitchhike to Washington. And spent ten days in Washington seeing Don Riegle and Bill Steiger, who was a Republican from Oshkosh, Wisconsin, who I knew.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because he was had young Republicans in Oshkosh, but nobody had an opening for me. Nobody was willing to extend one. So I went back to Three Rivers.

[Assistant] You had readjustment allowance, I think, which was a, you know.

[User] But I'd spent that on my trip.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got promoted as principal. And Howard said, Russ, what are you doing? I said, I'm going to be one of your counselors. What? And another fellow, Horance Brown, also was there. And he got introduced and said, what are you doing here? Well, I'm assigned also like Russ to be a counselor. And we ended up monitoring the cafeteria. That was our primary thrust. 1,350 students. There are five of us assigned to this duty.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] The principal was very grateful to have these two warm bodies to help.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Right in front of the cafeteria.

[Assistant] Yeah. In the initial reassignment to become a counselor, was there any sense that, do you get a sense that people thought, well, he's been in the Peace Corps, he can do anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right in front of the cafeteria.

[Assistant] Yeah. In the initial reassignment to become a counselor, was there any sense that, do you get a sense that people thought, well, he's been in the Peace Corps, he can do anything?

[User] I thought there was that element.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He's flexible. He could adapt and adjust.

[Assistant] And you end up as a lunchroom monitor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two were in the cafeteria and I was in the lunch line to make sure no brawls and cutting and that kind of stuff. And it was amazing. Later on, the students were really talking about serious problems through all this ruckus. And the privacy was tremendous.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I'd say a ninth grader, female. Jeez, I'm pregnant. I think I'm pregnant. And I'd say, go see the nurse.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Okay, whatever. The stuff, the problems kids were having.

[Assistant] So you were a counselor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I said, well, what kind of degree you have? He said, I'm still a student at the University of Michigan. And so, evolution, I'm evolving.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So I get introduced to Don Jake, which was social worker in Flint Central. He later supervised me. He introduced me to Frank Maple, who was a professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I ended up two years later going to the University of Michigan School of Social Work.

[Assistant] And during this transition period, a year, two years. What was your perspective on the Peace Corps phase of your life? I mean, you're getting to be an old man now in your mid thirties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I also meet my wife in this process. She too was a Peace Corps volunteer in Tanzania. And we were speaking together as a panel at the International Institute.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So then in June of 1968, so it was a quick romance.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We got married. But in this time, Martin Luther King gets killed. And on the day of our wedding, Bobby Kennedy's funeral. So.

[Assistant] Yeah. And the war in Vietnam is still on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then in June of 1968, so it was a quick romance.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We got married. But in this time, Martin Luther King gets killed. And on the day of our wedding, Bobby Kennedy's funeral. So.

[Assistant] Yeah. And the war in Vietnam is still on.

[User] And the war in Vietnam was just getting worse.

[Assistant] But how does this all relate to your sense of I've been a Peace Corps volunteer? I mean, it may be hard to connect.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the racial unrest. This is an inner city junior high school.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And 60 percent Black, 40 percent white. And certainly, again, I felt comfortable. African or European. And so I again was able to make that bridge. And so I got to know, you know, African American families as well as European families. And discovering the issue, the racial issue was not race so much as it was economic.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The whites that were uptight were the poor whites. And so we then tried to work on those issues to try to make the school truly integrate.

[Assistant] Yeah. Through the, um. I jumped in two directions. Uh. The third goal of the Peace Corps, of course, is that on your return that you become, you inform people about the Peace Corps point of view and possibly about the country you've been in. This is kind of a payoff. Have you done, can you, did you do any of that or have you done any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so it was in the mixing, in other words, the integration process, at this junior high school particularly.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That it really. I'd come up to a Black student and say, let me rub a little bit of Africa off on you. And they would titter and they'd say.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, but they knew I'd been to Africa.

[Assistant] Oh okay. And that was a, that was a plus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That it really. I'd come up to a Black student and say, let me rub a little bit of Africa off on you. And they would titter and they'd say.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, but they knew I'd been to Africa.

[Assistant] Oh okay. And that was a, that was a plus.

[User] That was a big plus. Yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. And did you ever get to formally teach about, I mean, either informal talks about Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, but they knew I'd been to Africa.

[Assistant] Oh okay. And that was a, that was a plus.

[User] That was a big plus. Yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. And did you ever get to formally teach about, I mean, either informal talks about Kenya?

[User] In this junior high school, the social studies teachers would come to me and say, I'm preparing a week on Africa and could you come up and show slides or give a presentation? So that would happen within that building.

[Assistant] Right. Okay. Now let's jump ahead, you know, after 30 some, 40 years or whatever. What's your perspective on what, you know, the effect Peace Corps had on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, first, as I mentioned, I got married. My wife had been a Peace Corps volunteer in Tanzania in an orphanage. And before we married, she said, you know, that experience is really affected me. And I'm thinking that maybe I'd really like to adopt and could be an African. And so in the course of our marriage, we did adopt a Korean daughter, had a biological son, and then we did adopt an African American. Actually, she's biracial.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Mixed.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Sue and I have been very grateful having these three children. And they get along fine.

[Assistant] Seemed perfectly natural to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Sue and I have been very grateful having these three children. And they get along fine.

[Assistant] Seemed perfectly natural to do.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And certainly my politics have changed. I had to switch parties when I was, I ran for the legislature last year and did not win. But I met a fellow, and my fliers said I had been a Republican. And he said, what made you change? And I said, Nixon. He said, that's a good answer. I'll vote for you.

[Assistant] But he may have been the only one who voted for you. Um. That's kind of the end of the interview. I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to mention about Peace Corps, about your involvement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And certainly my politics have changed. I had to switch parties when I was, I ran for the legislature last year and did not win. But I met a fellow, and my fliers said I had been a Republican. And he said, what made you change? And I said, Nixon. He said, that's a good answer. I'll vote for you.

[Assistant] But he may have been the only one who voted for you. Um. That's kind of the end of the interview. I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to mention about Peace Corps, about your involvement.

[User] Well, I mentioned the word evolution, and I'm still evolving.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I'm still changing. I'm still a student. And I'm going to be 70 in six weeks or so and I'm still young. And I attribute a lot of that to my Peace Corps experience. And I'm forever grateful. I'm grateful to you for coming out and staying, you old fart.

[Assistant] You know, have you, have you had a chance to go back to Kenya?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mentioned the word evolution, and I'm still evolving.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I'm still changing. I'm still a student. And I'm going to be 70 in six weeks or so and I'm still young. And I attribute a lot of that to my Peace Corps experience. And I'm forever grateful. I'm grateful to you for coming out and staying, you old fart.

[Assistant] You know, have you, have you had a chance to go back to Kenya?

[User] I, soon I would like to go back to East Africa, but we just, the kids and college.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you haven't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm still changing. I'm still a student. And I'm going to be 70 in six weeks or so and I'm still young. And I attribute a lot of that to my Peace Corps experience. And I'm forever grateful. I'm grateful to you for coming out and staying, you old fart.

[Assistant] You know, have you, have you had a chance to go back to Kenya?

[User] I, soon I would like to go back to East Africa, but we just, the kids and college.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you haven't.

[User] But, you know, there's not to say that the time will not come.

[Assistant] Yeah. And have you maintained any kind of contact with people from the, that you knew, the Kenyan students, staff, or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, there's not to say that the time will not come.

[Assistant] Yeah. And have you maintained any kind of contact with people from the, that you knew, the Kenyan students, staff, or?

[User] I have to a degree but it's not been.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] A lot of people and then firm contact. We had a reunion, a 20th reunion, and I missed it. In San Francisco in 1984.

[Assistant] Of your teaching group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of people and then firm contact. We had a reunion, a 20th reunion, and I missed it. In San Francisco in 1984.

[Assistant] Of your teaching group?

[User] Right. And we didn't have a 40th.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it takes a lot of energy to organize one of those things.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And we didn't have a 40th.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But it takes a lot of energy to organize one of those things.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[User] So I'm thinking maybe I'll try to do something. I'll try to do something.

[Assistant] Well, you know, and in some ways, Peace Corps ex- volunteers, they're very individual people and they don't respond readily to groups.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it takes a lot of energy to organize one of those things.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[User] So I'm thinking maybe I'll try to do something. I'll try to do something.

[Assistant] Well, you know, and in some ways, Peace Corps ex- volunteers, they're very individual people and they don't respond readily to groups.

[User] And not everybody has put their name in the directory.

[Assistant] No, certainly not. Certainly not. Well, good. That's, uh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, a Gemini spacecraft is a Gemini spacecraft is a Gemini spacecraft. There were variations. There were tailored pieces of equipment for each flight, but by learning the fundamental aspects of the Titan-II booster and the Gemini spacecraft, by learning those on Gemini 7, all that knowledge transferred over to Gemini 10. On the other hand, there were very specific parts of Gemini 10 that were quite different from Gemini 7, having to do with rendezvous, which was the most complicated part of the flight, and the space walk, the EVA, which was the second.\n\n Can we take a quick break? [Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] I think—this is just off the record—I'll just try and talk about your rendezvous and docking and also on your missions, on the training on Apollo, both on the [unclear] performance crew and then also to Apollo 11, just your recommendations, what you consider your accomplishments and maybe the challenges have been throughout your career.

[User] Oh, God, I don't have any idea about those things, but ask away.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] As specific as you can get, and you probably, rather than—anyway, ask.

[Assistant] Okay. Thank you very much. My next question for you is, I know that on Gemini 10 you, along with John Young, performed one of the first few rendezvous and docking missions. Can you tell me a little bit about the complexities of it and what types of training and classes you took to prepare you for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I had a disc come loose between two cervical vertebrae, and I had to have an operation where they take a little chunk of bone out of your hip and fuse two discs together. That kicked me off the crew and grounded me for a couple of months, and then when I returned to the selection pool, I guess you would call it, I happened to come along about the time for Apollo 11. So, let's see. The knit-one-pearl-two theory would have said—I wasn't back-up. I would have been—I don't know. Anyway, I ended up on 11.

[Assistant] Almost a fortunate turn of events.

[User] …That's an interesting question, the historical importance of Apollo 8 versus Apollo 11. To summarize that, I think Apollo 8 was about leaving and Apollo 11 was about arriving, leaving Earth and arriving at the moon. As you look back 100 years from now, which is more important, the idea that people left their home planet or the idea that people arrived at their nearby satellite? I'm not sure, but I think probably you would say Apollo 8 was of more significance than Apollo 11, even though today we regard Apollo 11 as being the showpiece and the zenith of the Apollo Program, rightfully so, because that was President [John F.] Kennedy's mandate, to, as he said, land a man on the moon, not two or not a woman, but just a man on the moon. So that was the focus, and when that was done by Apollo 11, then that naturally put Apollo 11 up on a pedestal, but, as I say, 100 years from now, historians may say Apollo 8 is more significant; it's more significant to leave than it is to arrive. That's all.

[Assistant] I think that's a very interesting way of describing it. I'd like to go back a little bit to Apollo 8. I believe you served as Capcom on that flight.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess it would be the first Capcom to have told the crew that they were ready to go for TLI [Translunar Injection]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, space flight is such that you're hardly ever—not until the thing splashes on the water and the parachute collapse around it, not until them are you allowed the luxury of relaxing. So the fact that it had done this wonderful thing, that it had gotten going to escape velocity, that it was leaving the Earth, you couldn't sit back and pat yourself on the head and say, "Isn't that wonderful. We've done that thing." I mean, this is just another little link in the chain. So your whole attitude is looking forward, "Jesus, what next?" I won't say that it added to the feeling of tension or apprehension, but it certainly did not diminish it, the fact that it was on its way. "Oh, my God, it's on its way. We can't just bring it back. It's got to go do its thing." So I think how to put that in perspective, it was just a feeling of a greater awareness of the larger responsibility that this flight, the chunk that they had bitten off, that we were actually leaving and going. You know, it was venturing off into a new area. It was scary in that way.

[Assistant] It sounds quite significant as well. You were a very big part of history in that respect.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'd like to move on a little bit to Apollo 11. I have so many questions I'd like to ask you, although I'm sure you've been asked everything that can possibly be asked.

[User] I think so, but you could still fool me. I'm here to be tricked. Go ahead and try.

[Assistant] No, you're not here to be tricked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'd like to move on a little bit to Apollo 11. I have so many questions I'd like to ask you, although I'm sure you've been asked everything that can possibly be asked.

[User] I think so, but you could still fool me. I'm here to be tricked. Go ahead and try.

[Assistant] No, you're not here to be tricked.

[User] No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Assistant] I apologize in advance if I'm too repetitive, but I'd like also to use this as an opportunity for you to talk about some things that maybe you feel haven't been talked about before and that maybe are relevant to [unclear].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, but you could still fool me. I'm here to be tricked. Go ahead and try.

[Assistant] No, you're not here to be tricked.

[User] No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Assistant] I apologize in advance if I'm too repetitive, but I'd like also to use this as an opportunity for you to talk about some things that maybe you feel haven't been talked about before and that maybe are relevant to [unclear].

[User] Sure. Go.

[Assistant] But my first question is, what was training like, knowing that you perhaps were going to be the first crew to land on the moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

[Assistant] I apologize in advance if I'm too repetitive, but I'd like also to use this as an opportunity for you to talk about some things that maybe you feel haven't been talked about before and that maybe are relevant to [unclear].

[User] Sure. Go.

[Assistant] But my first question is, what was training like, knowing that you perhaps were going to be the first crew to land on the moon?

[User] I tend to compare Apollo 11 with Gemini 10 because those are the two flights that I made, and I put Gemini 10 in the context of being certainly an important event, but sort of like an important sporting event, maybe, say like a championship middle-weight fight or something like that. It was important, but there it was.\n\n Apollo 11, on the other hand, was taken out of the sporting event category and put in the category of not even a national event, whereas Gemini may have been more national, Apollo could have international implications, and it was obviously—it sounds trite and hackneyed, but it was a historical milestone. It was of importance to the people of the world, I think, whereas I don't think Gemini necessarily was, not to all people in the world. I mean, certain people either didn't know about it or didn't care about going to the moon, but it was of some importance to people in virtually every little corner of the globe, and I felt that very keenly, and I felt that in a negative sense as well as a positive. The negative was, hey, don't screw it up. I mean, I felt a tremendous feeling of, you know, I could make some stupid little mistake and just make the whole program look ridiculous in the eyes of the whole globe. So I felt a heightened feeling of responsibility and worry because of the responsibility. I guess that's how I felt about the training of Apollo 11.

[Assistant] It sounds like you also had a heck of a lot of simulator time. Did you find that you spent most days in preparation in the simulator or were you doing other activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think that was baloney. I mean, the chances of one object hitting another launched from two different parts of the Earth going in two different, separate trajectories around the moon, different angles, time phasing, one thing and another, the chances of those two machines colliding are much less than the chances of one of the two of them getting hit by an asteroid, for example, and I don't remember anybody getting all in a swivet because we were going to get hit by an asteroid or meteorite or whatever. So I think it was a public relations or a political necessity, perhaps, to voice some concern about collisions. I think they sent—didn't they send Borman to Russia or something to work out details? You know, that was all pretty much, from a technical point of view, eyewash.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about once you returned from Apollo 11, because I'd like to talk to you more about Apollo 11 itself. It seems so well documented that [unclear].

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] But I'd like to ask you about what happened during your—I guess it would be your landing, recovery, once you got into your BIG garments, the Biological Isolation Garments.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And into the mobile quarantine facility. What was it like to go through that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the whole thing with the LRL, Lunar Receiving Laboratory, they had a colony of I don't know how many white mice, and they exposed them to the moon rocks and to us. Had there been some strange malady, maybe these mice's grandparents had some genetic defect or something, I don't know, but had the mice all sickened, jeez, I hate to thing about it. We'd be in that building today. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Can I ask what it was like in the MQF, Mobile Quarantine Facility, once you were transferred?

[User] It was fine. I mean, it was a happy little home. These people are there. There were three of us plus two. We had the doctor and the engineer, John [Hirasaki]...Anyway, Bill Carpentier was the physician and John [Hirasaki]…Anyway, we were there, five people happy as clams to be in a confined space. It's not that confined. It's like living in a trailer for—we were in it for, I don't know, a day? That's about all. So it was no problem. We had gin on board, had steaks. [Laughter]

[Assistant] There you go. [Laughter]

[User] What the hell? I could have stayed in there a lot longer. That was fine. And a hot shower. That was the main thing, really, because I love hot showers, and, of course, there's not one on the command module. I was grubby and glad to be back. Hot shower, gin, and steak. Wow!

[Assistant] That's all a man can ask for.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fine. I mean, it was a happy little home. These people are there. There were three of us plus two. We had the doctor and the engineer, John [Hirasaki]...Anyway, Bill Carpentier was the physician and John [Hirasaki]…Anyway, we were there, five people happy as clams to be in a confined space. It's not that confined. It's like living in a trailer for—we were in it for, I don't know, a day? That's about all. So it was no problem. We had gin on board, had steaks. [Laughter]

[Assistant] There you go. [Laughter]

[User] What the hell? I could have stayed in there a lot longer. That was fine. And a hot shower. That was the main thing, really, because I love hot showers, and, of course, there's not one on the command module. I was grubby and glad to be back. Hot shower, gin, and steak. Wow!

[Assistant] That's all a man can ask for.

[User] Now, if someone had said to me, "You can have either a hot shower or a gin martini or a steak," it would have been easy to say, "I don't want the steak." But the choice between the gin martini and the hot shower, I don't know what I would have done. It would have been close, very close.

[Assistant] Then I think you proceeded on to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory here in Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What the hell? I could have stayed in there a lot longer. That was fine. And a hot shower. That was the main thing, really, because I love hot showers, and, of course, there's not one on the command module. I was grubby and glad to be back. Hot shower, gin, and steak. Wow!

[Assistant] That's all a man can ask for.

[User] Now, if someone had said to me, "You can have either a hot shower or a gin martini or a steak," it would have been easy to say, "I don't want the steak." But the choice between the gin martini and the hot shower, I don't know what I would have done. It would have been close, very close.

[Assistant] Then I think you proceeded on to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory here in Houston?

[User] LRL, yes.

[Assistant] Can I ask how long did you stay there and what types of things -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, if someone had said to me, "You can have either a hot shower or a gin martini or a steak," it would have been easy to say, "I don't want the steak." But the choice between the gin martini and the hot shower, I don't know what I would have done. It would have been close, very close.

[Assistant] Then I think you proceeded on to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory here in Houston?

[User] LRL, yes.

[Assistant] Can I ask how long did you stay there and what types of things -

[User] I believe the rule was—we had to be in isolation, I believe, twenty-one days from the time we left the moon. So if you subtract the transit time back and the MQF time—I just don't remember anymore, but it seems like my numbers must be wrong, because I have the feeling we spent eight or nine days in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. It must have been longer than that, or maybe I don't remember the quarantine period, but I want to say there was a twenty- or twenty-one day quarantine, but it doesn't seem—I don't know. I've forgotten.

[Assistant] From what I've read, they said twenty-one days from the time of the lunar landing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] LRL, yes.

[Assistant] Can I ask how long did you stay there and what types of things -

[User] I believe the rule was—we had to be in isolation, I believe, twenty-one days from the time we left the moon. So if you subtract the transit time back and the MQF time—I just don't remember anymore, but it seems like my numbers must be wrong, because I have the feeling we spent eight or nine days in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. It must have been longer than that, or maybe I don't remember the quarantine period, but I want to say there was a twenty- or twenty-one day quarantine, but it doesn't seem—I don't know. I've forgotten.

[Assistant] From what I've read, they said twenty-one days from the time of the lunar landing.

[User] That sounds like what I just said, but somehow—because then from that you subtract four days and another five. So that would have been sixteen days in the LRL. It doesn't seem like it was that long. Maybe it was. But again, it was fine. No problem. We had comfortable rooms, good food. We had to write post-flight reports anyway, so it wasn't as if some horrible injustice had been done to us or anything like that. It was fine.

[Assistant] It seems that after that, I'm sure you were swamped with press conferences and photo opportunities and a trip around the world to meet various dignitaries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe the rule was—we had to be in isolation, I believe, twenty-one days from the time we left the moon. So if you subtract the transit time back and the MQF time—I just don't remember anymore, but it seems like my numbers must be wrong, because I have the feeling we spent eight or nine days in the Lunar Receiving Laboratory. It must have been longer than that, or maybe I don't remember the quarantine period, but I want to say there was a twenty- or twenty-one day quarantine, but it doesn't seem—I don't know. I've forgotten.

[Assistant] From what I've read, they said twenty-one days from the time of the lunar landing.

[User] That sounds like what I just said, but somehow—because then from that you subtract four days and another five. So that would have been sixteen days in the LRL. It doesn't seem like it was that long. Maybe it was. But again, it was fine. No problem. We had comfortable rooms, good food. We had to write post-flight reports anyway, so it wasn't as if some horrible injustice had been done to us or anything like that. It was fine.

[Assistant] It seems that after that, I'm sure you were swamped with press conferences and photo opportunities and a trip around the world to meet various dignitaries.

[User] All those things.

[Assistant] What was that like, and how did that impact your work as well as your outlook on what you had done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You should. You should. He's a wonderful guy. He has a wonderful sense of humor, and he was in the middle of this from a PR point of view. I can remember Julian was one of the guys who worked out the wording, "Here men from Planet Earth landed and when we came, blah, blah, blah, July of 1969 A.D., we came in peace for all mankind." I think Julian wrote that, or one of his people did, and then he had to clear it with the White House. He was over there talking to somebody on the Nixon staff, and they said, "Well, I don't see anything in there about God. You know the President's big on God." [Laughter] So you ought to ask Julian about that.\n\n But before the flight, see, we were so beset with technical details, that if someone had said, "Hey, we're going to put a plaque on the LM," we'd have said, "Fine."\n\n "It's going to have your name on it."\n\n "Fine."\n\n "It's going to say this."\n\n "Fine. I don't give a damn. Give me something important."\n\n So even though it may seem important from a historical or public affairs point of view, it did not loom large. [Its wording couldn't kill us.]

[Assistant] One of my questions for you is going to be to ask you if you have any ideas of other people that we can interview and people that you think are important to the history of the—

[User] Well, I'd sure put Julian on the list. Off the top of my head, he's the only one I can think of. You would know better than I, I think. I don't have any—no.

[Assistant] I think he might be a good addition [unclear].

[User] He's a good fellow. You ought to talk to him.

[Assistant] My next two questions concern mostly what you think about your career, both at NASA and otherwise. I'll just ask you, first of all, what you think your accomplishments were and especially what your greatest accomplishments were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a secretary in the beginning, which was [in] September 1959, I think [it was that] I went there. There was one fellow named Ed Kerrigan, who was transferred to me. He had been working with the office responsible for [establishing] tracking stations. They had needed to work with the State Department to get permission to build tracking stations around the world, and he was the guy they had doing that. So he was transferred to me, because there had been no proper place for him.\n\n Then through the years, we had to continue adding people as more of these programs developed, and I think we ended up with some thirty people. We tried to keep it down. I had some prejudices against government payrolls and bureaucracy and so on. So we tried to keep it down. But we eventually ended up with—I don’t know how many foreign satellites NASA ultimately launched, but it had to be over forty, maybe fifty. I don’t know. [And with other types of cooperative programs, we needed more people.]\n\n There were [in fact] many other programs that developed, which … were non-satellite [or didn’t involve activities in space itself by other partners]—like SITE [the Satellite Instructional Television Experiment], [an] Indian program, or Landsat observations and so on.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about the process, once the nation contacted NASA and said, “We’d like to have a cooperative agreement,” how that took place? Because not only did you have to cooperate with that nation, you also had to do cooperation within our government agencies as well.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So could you explain what that process was and what your role was and how all those steps were taken?

[User] Well, it differed in different cases. Should I give you some examples, different examples?

[Assistant] That would be great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I cannot remember anything about that. I know I did it. Let’s say I spent some time working with Homer Newell. I’m not even clear on what I was working on in memory. …There was a staff that had worked with Bob [Robert C.] Seamans, and it involved Wyatt, DeMarquis [D.] Wyatt, D. D. Wyatt, and another man [or two]…. They were doing … management analysis on programs for Seamans, as I thought. Now, Seamans left, and Newell got more into that area. He asked me, he or whoever was the administrator at the time, I honestly don’t remember—did you have dates on it?

[Assistant] I don’t believe I do, but maybe if we visit again I can send you some information and we can try that find that.

[User] He asked me to come over and help on what it [was] they were doing, but I don’t remember exactly what they were doing. I do know that it didn’t work out. It did not work out, and I honestly don’t know the reasons.\n\n …Wyatt had been doing this job himself. Whatever the job was, he had been doing it himself, and he did not take kindly to my coming in from outside with no real background in it. I had no background in financial management at all or program management, none…. I don’t know exactly how we resolved it, but I’d have to say that it was a mistake to put me there, that I did not have the background for it, and probably everybody was happy [with] my going back to the international [arena].

[Assistant] Speaking of which, one of your accomplishments was the negotiations with the Soviets regarding Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP].

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We’d like to start with that, and you can tell us how far back that those negotiations started and what your role was to help.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He asked me to come over and help on what it [was] they were doing, but I don’t remember exactly what they were doing. I do know that it didn’t work out. It did not work out, and I honestly don’t know the reasons.\n\n …Wyatt had been doing this job himself. Whatever the job was, he had been doing it himself, and he did not take kindly to my coming in from outside with no real background in it. I had no background in financial management at all or program management, none…. I don’t know exactly how we resolved it, but I’d have to say that it was a mistake to put me there, that I did not have the background for it, and probably everybody was happy [with] my going back to the international [arena].

[Assistant] Speaking of which, one of your accomplishments was the negotiations with the Soviets regarding Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP].

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We’d like to start with that, and you can tell us how far back that those negotiations started and what your role was to help.

[User] Do you want to talk generally about cooperation with the Soviets, or do you want to talk about the Apollo-Soyuz thing?

[Assistant] Let’s start with the general negotiation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, all the joint operations in their capsule. We put men up there. It was a lot of money, anyhow. But [there] wouldn’t have been a dime in my time. … Now, I admit that we were working during the cold war and [that it’s] different [now], but it would not have happened. I don’t believe in that kind of dollar cooperation. I mean dollar-paid cooperation. You don’t pay people to cooperate with you. If it had been insisted on, I would have resigned…. I would not have been identified with that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Well, there’s so much more that you did that we would like to talk to you about, but our time for the day is here.

[User] Goodness sake.

[Assistant] We don’t want to keep you from your other appointments.

[User] Yes. I’m going to call my luncheon date right now, if I can.

[Assistant] You certainly can, and we’ll just close for today. Then maybe we can have a chance to visit again in the future, but thank you for today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I’m going to call my luncheon date right now, if I can.

[Assistant] You certainly can, and we’ll just close for today. Then maybe we can have a chance to visit again in the future, but thank you for today.

[User] You’re very welcome. One reason I have been so willing to speak at length and cooperate is I have just been asked by Kathy [Kathryn C.] Thornton. Do you know [her]?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] She lives in Charlottesville [Virginia]. She teaches at the University of Virginia. She’s just asked me to give a course. It’s going to be on the international space program. It’s just a few lectures [in] an institute for senior citizens that [is] identified with the University of Virginia. So I’m going to do that next year. [I’ve done an outline of] just a couple of pages … and thought this would be [a] useful rehearsal.

[Assistant] Good. You’ll have a transcript of this, so you’ll be able to use it for everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Retired in 2000. I retired in 2004. And I have an avocado grove I take care of. I raise flowers and take care of a grandson.

[Assistant] And where is it that you're living now?

[User] We lived in Valley Center, California. It's north of San Diego, about an hour and a half. God's country for us.

[Assistant] Well, actually, it's pretty nice out there. I know. And now what? I want you to think about the year before you joined the Peace Corps, how did you happen to hear about it and how did you happen to decide to go with it?

[User] Well, it was really a fluke. I was in college and it was in my sophomore year and I was tired of school and saw this flier, Peace Corps. I looked at and I said, I’ll send an application. So I sent an application in and heard nothing. Another application came in, filled that form out. It went on like that. And here comes an offer to go to Bolivia, you know, and of course, I had another offer to go to the Bering Sea with the Alaska Department Fish and Game. And I tried to postpone going to Bolivia and they say, it's either now or not. So I went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] How did you did you have a hard time making that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lived in Valley Center, California. It's north of San Diego, about an hour and a half. God's country for us.

[Assistant] Well, actually, it's pretty nice out there. I know. And now what? I want you to think about the year before you joined the Peace Corps, how did you happen to hear about it and how did you happen to decide to go with it?

[User] Well, it was really a fluke. I was in college and it was in my sophomore year and I was tired of school and saw this flier, Peace Corps. I looked at and I said, I’ll send an application. So I sent an application in and heard nothing. Another application came in, filled that form out. It went on like that. And here comes an offer to go to Bolivia, you know, and of course, I had another offer to go to the Bering Sea with the Alaska Department Fish and Game. And I tried to postpone going to Bolivia and they say, it's either now or not. So I went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] How did you did you have a hard time making that decision?

[User] No, it was the hardest part was I had to make it and I made it because it was definitely a place I never imagined they'd ever go, you know. I had been to Alaska. So I jumped in.

[Assistant] So what did your family think, they decided to go in the Peace Corps and your friend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was really a fluke. I was in college and it was in my sophomore year and I was tired of school and saw this flier, Peace Corps. I looked at and I said, I’ll send an application. So I sent an application in and heard nothing. Another application came in, filled that form out. It went on like that. And here comes an offer to go to Bolivia, you know, and of course, I had another offer to go to the Bering Sea with the Alaska Department Fish and Game. And I tried to postpone going to Bolivia and they say, it's either now or not. So I went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] How did you did you have a hard time making that decision?

[User] No, it was the hardest part was I had to make it and I made it because it was definitely a place I never imagined they'd ever go, you know. I had been to Alaska. So I jumped in.

[Assistant] So what did your family think, they decided to go in the Peace Corps and your friend?

[User] Oh, my family. Yeah, my mother would always say if you want to do it. And so there was no problem. There wasn’t even hesitation on their part. And to my friends, they said, what are you doing? And I don't I don't know, but I’m going to try it.

[Assistant] Sounds like a plan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was the hardest part was I had to make it and I made it because it was definitely a place I never imagined they'd ever go, you know. I had been to Alaska. So I jumped in.

[Assistant] So what did your family think, they decided to go in the Peace Corps and your friend?

[User] Oh, my family. Yeah, my mother would always say if you want to do it. And so there was no problem. There wasn’t even hesitation on their part. And to my friends, they said, what are you doing? And I don't I don't know, but I’m going to try it.

[Assistant] Sounds like a plan.

[User] Yeah, well planned out.

[Assistant] So what were you studying in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, my family. Yeah, my mother would always say if you want to do it. And so there was no problem. There wasn’t even hesitation on their part. And to my friends, they said, what are you doing? And I don't I don't know, but I’m going to try it.

[Assistant] Sounds like a plan.

[User] Yeah, well planned out.

[Assistant] So what were you studying in college?

[User] Well, civil engineering. It was then and I did eventually graduate as a civil engineer.

[Assistant] When you put in your application, did you ask for any specific country or place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well planned out.

[Assistant] So what were you studying in college?

[User] Well, civil engineering. It was then and I did eventually graduate as a civil engineer.

[Assistant] When you put in your application, did you ask for any specific country or place?

[User] I think I asked for South America because I have a Spanish background and that would be the only reason. No, I think I did, but no specific country, just the area.

[Assistant] Ok, so what tell me a little bit about the project, what you were invited to do? Well, just like just about the project, because I want to talk about training as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, civil engineering. It was then and I did eventually graduate as a civil engineer.

[Assistant] When you put in your application, did you ask for any specific country or place?

[User] I think I asked for South America because I have a Spanish background and that would be the only reason. No, I think I did, but no specific country, just the area.

[Assistant] Ok, so what tell me a little bit about the project, what you were invited to do? Well, just like just about the project, because I want to talk about training as well.

[User] We were the project we ended up going to was in Cochabamba, the valley of Cochabama. And I had to do with animal husbandry and dairy in the United States, no, the UN had to build a processing plant to plant the field. And it was produced it was designed to produce about 20 thousand liters of milk a day. And they were only getting like three or four. And they wanted some way of bringing it up. And so somebody got the idea of let's have somebody in this case volunteers, you know, try to encourage dairying. And so this we went down there to do it.

[Assistant] So tell me a little bit about the training. When you when you first went into the Peace Corps, what were you expecting or different than you were expecting or what was your impression?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were the project we ended up going to was in Cochabamba, the valley of Cochabama. And I had to do with animal husbandry and dairy in the United States, no, the UN had to build a processing plant to plant the field. And it was produced it was designed to produce about 20 thousand liters of milk a day. And they were only getting like three or four. And they wanted some way of bringing it up. And so somebody got the idea of let's have somebody in this case volunteers, you know, try to encourage dairying. And so this we went down there to do it.

[Assistant] So tell me a little bit about the training. When you when you first went into the Peace Corps, what were you expecting or different than you were expecting or what was your impression?

[User] I had no expectations, you know, and I'd never been any kind of training, a formal group, you know, so I went along with the flow. You know, we had some language training that was logical. There would be language training. And there was some, you know, training. We lived with the Indians. I guess that was the experience, a little bit more of a different culture. The training, a lot of the training wasn't really relevant. We had advisers or people who had lived in Bolivia and there are U.S. Ag people come back and they gave us talks about what to expect. And I don't think they ever went out of the country because it was different, you know, but it didn't make any difference with important when you really got down there, what they could have done in the States, you know, it wouldn’t have made any difference. The environment was just different. You had to just say go with flow and that's what you did.

[Assistant] So overall, what did you think of the training in Arizona?

[User] That was the Indians. That was probably be the harshest food they had.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about what you actually did in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no expectations, you know, and I'd never been any kind of training, a formal group, you know, so I went along with the flow. You know, we had some language training that was logical. There would be language training. And there was some, you know, training. We lived with the Indians. I guess that was the experience, a little bit more of a different culture. The training, a lot of the training wasn't really relevant. We had advisers or people who had lived in Bolivia and there are U.S. Ag people come back and they gave us talks about what to expect. And I don't think they ever went out of the country because it was different, you know, but it didn't make any difference with important when you really got down there, what they could have done in the States, you know, it wouldn’t have made any difference. The environment was just different. You had to just say go with flow and that's what you did.

[Assistant] So overall, what did you think of the training in Arizona?

[User] That was the Indians. That was probably be the harshest food they had.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about what you actually did in the training?

[User] Well, they try to teach us how to construct, you know, in this case was chicken pens, you know, chicken barns or something like that. We built little buildings and, you know, just built a large free range chicken pens, you know, and and then, you know, they did teach us. Then we went in town, we had classes in the shop, metalwork and have some idea of tools. But that was basically it. Got my teeth fixed.

[Assistant] How about the next phase?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the Indians. That was probably be the harshest food they had.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about what you actually did in the training?

[User] Well, they try to teach us how to construct, you know, in this case was chicken pens, you know, chicken barns or something like that. We built little buildings and, you know, just built a large free range chicken pens, you know, and and then, you know, they did teach us. Then we went in town, we had classes in the shop, metalwork and have some idea of tools. But that was basically it. Got my teeth fixed.

[Assistant] How about the next phase?

[User] That was Mayaguez, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, Arecibo first, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was Mayaguez, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, Arecibo first, right?

[User] Well that’s still Puerto Rico, Arecibo. Oh I think this was Camp Crozier?

[Assistant] Crozier.

[User] They try to teach us how to learn to swim. I never learned I still don't know how to swim. But, you know, I think the the instruction there I was I don't think it would be interesting if you learned it or got were proficient and whatever they're trying to teach it is if you're willing to try it, because there were people who you know, they're like the team we had to repair of dams. You know, some of the girls have been doing just that. One girl from South Carolina, I forget her name. She freaked out. Yeah. No way could you get her to the edge. You know, I think all that counted against her, anybody who really wasn't willing to give it a try, they didn't care if you did well or want to do it, you know, unless that was just to see, you know, what you're willing to try at. But that was, again, big thing outdoors.

[Assistant] How about the heights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well that’s still Puerto Rico, Arecibo. Oh I think this was Camp Crozier?

[Assistant] Crozier.

[User] They try to teach us how to learn to swim. I never learned I still don't know how to swim. But, you know, I think the the instruction there I was I don't think it would be interesting if you learned it or got were proficient and whatever they're trying to teach it is if you're willing to try it, because there were people who you know, they're like the team we had to repair of dams. You know, some of the girls have been doing just that. One girl from South Carolina, I forget her name. She freaked out. Yeah. No way could you get her to the edge. You know, I think all that counted against her, anybody who really wasn't willing to give it a try, they didn't care if you did well or want to do it, you know, unless that was just to see, you know, what you're willing to try at. But that was, again, big thing outdoors.

[Assistant] How about the heights?

[User] All the height was the same thing, just to see, you know. They broke it out to your ability. My ability was such that I had to go with the girls. But again, with the same thing. I remember when they were sorting us out. Nieblas, go with the girls. Anyway, it was again it seemed to go on. The time you spend overnight will make the hikes, you know, because in actuality, actuality, when we got to Bolivia we never did any of that stuff. I didn't sleep out in the countryside. It was never even proposed to sleep out in the countryside.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They try to teach us how to learn to swim. I never learned I still don't know how to swim. But, you know, I think the the instruction there I was I don't think it would be interesting if you learned it or got were proficient and whatever they're trying to teach it is if you're willing to try it, because there were people who you know, they're like the team we had to repair of dams. You know, some of the girls have been doing just that. One girl from South Carolina, I forget her name. She freaked out. Yeah. No way could you get her to the edge. You know, I think all that counted against her, anybody who really wasn't willing to give it a try, they didn't care if you did well or want to do it, you know, unless that was just to see, you know, what you're willing to try at. But that was, again, big thing outdoors.

[Assistant] How about the heights?

[User] All the height was the same thing, just to see, you know. They broke it out to your ability. My ability was such that I had to go with the girls. But again, with the same thing. I remember when they were sorting us out. Nieblas, go with the girls. Anyway, it was again it seemed to go on. The time you spend overnight will make the hikes, you know, because in actuality, actuality, when we got to Bolivia we never did any of that stuff. I didn't sleep out in the countryside. It was never even proposed to sleep out in the countryside.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez?

[User] Mayaguez. That was the university that was more practical because of the Ag school. And they gave us classes and, you know, in different tropical fruits, animal husbandry, really pigs, some cows there also, and just some of the, you know, foods and stuff, you know, of Latin America. That was the most practical. Other than the language part. Good exposure to Latin countries.

[Assistant] So after you got done with Puerto Rico, then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the height was the same thing, just to see, you know. They broke it out to your ability. My ability was such that I had to go with the girls. But again, with the same thing. I remember when they were sorting us out. Nieblas, go with the girls. Anyway, it was again it seemed to go on. The time you spend overnight will make the hikes, you know, because in actuality, actuality, when we got to Bolivia we never did any of that stuff. I didn't sleep out in the countryside. It was never even proposed to sleep out in the countryside.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez?

[User] Mayaguez. That was the university that was more practical because of the Ag school. And they gave us classes and, you know, in different tropical fruits, animal husbandry, really pigs, some cows there also, and just some of the, you know, foods and stuff, you know, of Latin America. That was the most practical. Other than the language part. Good exposure to Latin countries.

[Assistant] So after you got done with Puerto Rico, then what happened?

[User] Then you come home. Regroup and then we had to go to Vermont. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Assistant] When we got to Miami, that was the Cuban Missile Crisis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mayaguez. That was the university that was more practical because of the Ag school. And they gave us classes and, you know, in different tropical fruits, animal husbandry, really pigs, some cows there also, and just some of the, you know, foods and stuff, you know, of Latin America. That was the most practical. Other than the language part. Good exposure to Latin countries.

[Assistant] So after you got done with Puerto Rico, then what happened?

[User] Then you come home. Regroup and then we had to go to Vermont. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Assistant] When we got to Miami, that was the Cuban Missile Crisis?

[User] Yeah, then we had to go to Vermont. I actually liked that.

[Assistant] Going to Vermont?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then you come home. Regroup and then we had to go to Vermont. That was the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Assistant] When we got to Miami, that was the Cuban Missile Crisis?

[User] Yeah, then we had to go to Vermont. I actually liked that.

[Assistant] Going to Vermont?

[User] Yeah, it was it was in the fall. And I never had never been on the West Coast. On the East Coast. And so all that was fascinating, all the people you know. The country was pretty even, just like you see, you know, in those calendars, you know, the barns and the ducks in the field and of flowers and stuff. And then, you know, I, liked Vermont, could have stayed there too.

[Assistant] A lot of people apparently really liked Vermont. Completely different after the desert.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, then we had to go to Vermont. I actually liked that.

[Assistant] Going to Vermont?

[User] Yeah, it was it was in the fall. And I never had never been on the West Coast. On the East Coast. And so all that was fascinating, all the people you know. The country was pretty even, just like you see, you know, in those calendars, you know, the barns and the ducks in the field and of flowers and stuff. And then, you know, I, liked Vermont, could have stayed there too.

[Assistant] A lot of people apparently really liked Vermont. Completely different after the desert.

[User] Oh, yeah. It was it was good. I went raccoon hunting with the janitor.

[Assistant] Oh, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was it was in the fall. And I never had never been on the West Coast. On the East Coast. And so all that was fascinating, all the people you know. The country was pretty even, just like you see, you know, in those calendars, you know, the barns and the ducks in the field and of flowers and stuff. And then, you know, I, liked Vermont, could have stayed there too.

[Assistant] A lot of people apparently really liked Vermont. Completely different after the desert.

[User] Oh, yeah. It was it was good. I went raccoon hunting with the janitor.

[Assistant] Oh, did you?

[User] Yeah, we were eating raccoon. Yeah, it was fun for me. It was because I never did that. And he had a dog, an old pickup, and the dog would be in the back of the truck and we’d drive along. I'm antsy. I'm ready to, you know, as soon the dog barks. The guy would say, no, just wait. You’ll know, the dog then would make kind of a howl, jump out of the truck and take off, you know, and then again, I'm saying, well, let’s go chase him. No, you wait. And you hear the dog barking, barking, and then the pitch of the bark changed. Ah, he’s got one and finally the janitor would come out with his pistol and a flashlight and there we’d go and he’d have a raccoon up in the tree and go pop. One raccoon, put in the truck and go do it again. There was no real sporting.

[Assistant] Do you do with the raccoon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. It was it was good. I went raccoon hunting with the janitor.

[Assistant] Oh, did you?

[User] Yeah, we were eating raccoon. Yeah, it was fun for me. It was because I never did that. And he had a dog, an old pickup, and the dog would be in the back of the truck and we’d drive along. I'm antsy. I'm ready to, you know, as soon the dog barks. The guy would say, no, just wait. You’ll know, the dog then would make kind of a howl, jump out of the truck and take off, you know, and then again, I'm saying, well, let’s go chase him. No, you wait. And you hear the dog barking, barking, and then the pitch of the bark changed. Ah, he’s got one and finally the janitor would come out with his pistol and a flashlight and there we’d go and he’d have a raccoon up in the tree and go pop. One raccoon, put in the truck and go do it again. There was no real sporting.

[Assistant] Do you do with the raccoon?

[User] Well, he was up every spring and in the year to come there was they had a festival with the raccoon. Some kind of delicacy or something. And this festival, they had raccoon meals and he was collecting in his lot of raccoons.

[Assistant] But I know they do that sometimes in the south.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were eating raccoon. Yeah, it was fun for me. It was because I never did that. And he had a dog, an old pickup, and the dog would be in the back of the truck and we’d drive along. I'm antsy. I'm ready to, you know, as soon the dog barks. The guy would say, no, just wait. You’ll know, the dog then would make kind of a howl, jump out of the truck and take off, you know, and then again, I'm saying, well, let’s go chase him. No, you wait. And you hear the dog barking, barking, and then the pitch of the bark changed. Ah, he’s got one and finally the janitor would come out with his pistol and a flashlight and there we’d go and he’d have a raccoon up in the tree and go pop. One raccoon, put in the truck and go do it again. There was no real sporting.

[Assistant] Do you do with the raccoon?

[User] Well, he was up every spring and in the year to come there was they had a festival with the raccoon. Some kind of delicacy or something. And this festival, they had raccoon meals and he was collecting in his lot of raccoons.

[Assistant] But I know they do that sometimes in the south.

[User] But possibly I think south. But a big rat.

[Assistant] And the big hairy rat. Yeah. So did you go into Boston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was up every spring and in the year to come there was they had a festival with the raccoon. Some kind of delicacy or something. And this festival, they had raccoon meals and he was collecting in his lot of raccoons.

[Assistant] But I know they do that sometimes in the south.

[User] But possibly I think south. But a big rat.

[Assistant] And the big hairy rat. Yeah. So did you go into Boston?

[User] Yeah Boston. One place where I thought they didn't speak English. I remember asking a policeman some directions, you know, and he was really polite to me and I said, yeah, what did he say? Can’t understand him. It was really, really thick his way of talking.

[Assistant] Did you were you are one of us had problems when we first went to training, understanding people from the east, the people from the south, or was that not a problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But possibly I think south. But a big rat.

[Assistant] And the big hairy rat. Yeah. So did you go into Boston?

[User] Yeah Boston. One place where I thought they didn't speak English. I remember asking a policeman some directions, you know, and he was really polite to me and I said, yeah, what did he say? Can’t understand him. It was really, really thick his way of talking.

[Assistant] Did you were you are one of us had problems when we first went to training, understanding people from the east, the people from the south, or was that not a problem?

[User] I don't think. I don't remember it as being a problem.

[Assistant] Ok, so then, uh, after that, then I guess we were on our way to Bolivia. So tell me about your experiences when you got to Bolivia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah Boston. One place where I thought they didn't speak English. I remember asking a policeman some directions, you know, and he was really polite to me and I said, yeah, what did he say? Can’t understand him. It was really, really thick his way of talking.

[Assistant] Did you were you are one of us had problems when we first went to training, understanding people from the east, the people from the south, or was that not a problem?

[User] I don't think. I don't remember it as being a problem.

[Assistant] Ok, so then, uh, after that, then I guess we were on our way to Bolivia. So tell me about your experiences when you got to Bolivia.

[User] When we landed in La Paz, the airport, some fourteen thousand feet. My head was bursting, the air so rarified up there. I just just couldn't do anything, you know? And I spent the first day or maybe two in bed, you know.

[Assistant] It's like the sea level.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think. I don't remember it as being a problem.

[Assistant] Ok, so then, uh, after that, then I guess we were on our way to Bolivia. So tell me about your experiences when you got to Bolivia.

[User] When we landed in La Paz, the airport, some fourteen thousand feet. My head was bursting, the air so rarified up there. I just just couldn't do anything, you know? And I spent the first day or maybe two in bed, you know.

[Assistant] It's like the sea level.

[User] You know, I never had a head hurt like that. And so eventually you got a little better. And they took us, the Bolivians there. It was the kids group or whatever. But they took us for tours. Saw Lake Titicaca and some of the tourist sites that you see around there, the reed boats, and then a few days. And I don't know how many days it was. We got in their jeeps and had a caravan to Cochabamba. And we were driving along the Altiplano, you know, just going.

[Assistant] Did you get to drive one of the jeeps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we landed in La Paz, the airport, some fourteen thousand feet. My head was bursting, the air so rarified up there. I just just couldn't do anything, you know? And I spent the first day or maybe two in bed, you know.

[Assistant] It's like the sea level.

[User] You know, I never had a head hurt like that. And so eventually you got a little better. And they took us, the Bolivians there. It was the kids group or whatever. But they took us for tours. Saw Lake Titicaca and some of the tourist sites that you see around there, the reed boats, and then a few days. And I don't know how many days it was. We got in their jeeps and had a caravan to Cochabamba. And we were driving along the Altiplano, you know, just going.

[Assistant] Did you get to drive one of the jeeps?

[User] I don't remember. I can remember being the Jeep and on each side of the Jeep there was nothing. And these people, you know, these rock walls, and that was their farm and god it sucks, you know, out of people. I mean, I really feel sorry for that. That's what, it's hard to imagine to do anything to help the people who didn't have anything to start with. Nothing.

[Assistant] So what when you got to Cochabamba, what did you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I never had a head hurt like that. And so eventually you got a little better. And they took us, the Bolivians there. It was the kids group or whatever. But they took us for tours. Saw Lake Titicaca and some of the tourist sites that you see around there, the reed boats, and then a few days. And I don't know how many days it was. We got in their jeeps and had a caravan to Cochabamba. And we were driving along the Altiplano, you know, just going.

[Assistant] Did you get to drive one of the jeeps?

[User] I don't remember. I can remember being the Jeep and on each side of the Jeep there was nothing. And these people, you know, these rock walls, and that was their farm and god it sucks, you know, out of people. I mean, I really feel sorry for that. That's what, it's hard to imagine to do anything to help the people who didn't have anything to start with. Nothing.

[Assistant] So what when you got to Cochabamba, what did you think?

[User] Well, Cochabamba is a lot like California, where we were not as high. I mean, it's higher than could be California, but they had the dry rolling hills. That kind of brushy hills and know big trees, eucalyptus. The climate is nice, you know. You know, winter got cool, don’t think it snowed very much. But it was closer to where I was accustomed to the climate. Not too hot. Dry heat, too, wasn’t any humidity, not like Cochabamba.

[Assistant] So tell me about where in Cochabamba that you live by yourself or do you live with a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I can remember being the Jeep and on each side of the Jeep there was nothing. And these people, you know, these rock walls, and that was their farm and god it sucks, you know, out of people. I mean, I really feel sorry for that. That's what, it's hard to imagine to do anything to help the people who didn't have anything to start with. Nothing.

[Assistant] So what when you got to Cochabamba, what did you think?

[User] Well, Cochabamba is a lot like California, where we were not as high. I mean, it's higher than could be California, but they had the dry rolling hills. That kind of brushy hills and know big trees, eucalyptus. The climate is nice, you know. You know, winter got cool, don’t think it snowed very much. But it was closer to where I was accustomed to the climate. Not too hot. Dry heat, too, wasn’t any humidity, not like Cochabamba.

[Assistant] So tell me about where in Cochabamba that you live by yourself or do you live with a family?

[User] I lived with a family. Larry Wohlwend and myself lived with a family of German descent, Grosbergers. Husband, wife and two children, maybe three, three children, had two children and, you know, kids that were, you know, maybe five and four, and a small baby. He spoke English. He'd been in the States studying agriculture. And so he brought his he picked up in the state and he had a dairy and he raised chickens and he kind of had his hands and everything. You know, these people that any time you made a good politician, he was just into everything. Knew everybody, spoke the Indian languages and stuff, you know? You know, he was an interesting fellow, Grosberger.

[Assistant] So, uh, what, how old were you when you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Cochabamba is a lot like California, where we were not as high. I mean, it's higher than could be California, but they had the dry rolling hills. That kind of brushy hills and know big trees, eucalyptus. The climate is nice, you know. You know, winter got cool, don’t think it snowed very much. But it was closer to where I was accustomed to the climate. Not too hot. Dry heat, too, wasn’t any humidity, not like Cochabamba.

[Assistant] So tell me about where in Cochabamba that you live by yourself or do you live with a family?

[User] I lived with a family. Larry Wohlwend and myself lived with a family of German descent, Grosbergers. Husband, wife and two children, maybe three, three children, had two children and, you know, kids that were, you know, maybe five and four, and a small baby. He spoke English. He'd been in the States studying agriculture. And so he brought his he picked up in the state and he had a dairy and he raised chickens and he kind of had his hands and everything. You know, these people that any time you made a good politician, he was just into everything. Knew everybody, spoke the Indian languages and stuff, you know? You know, he was an interesting fellow, Grosberger.

[Assistant] So, uh, what, how old were you when you went?

[User] Went at 22. I was 22 years old.

[Assistant] 22. So what exactly do they ask you to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think it bothered him. I don't think I never picked up on that at all. And they may have picked up on the fact that what we were trying to tell them was really not so. They didn't see it, it really couldn’t be. There wasn’t obvious dirt in the container. They rinsed it out and stuff like that, but it wasn’t clean enough.

[Assistant] So is that pretty much what you did while you were in Cochabamba?

[User] The program was supposed to be one year and it was supposed that we were trying to transition, transition into something else. We never transitioned. The director, can’t remember the fellow’s name.

[Assistant] Barrone?

[User] Yeah, that's right, Barrone. We were getting close to transitioning, he came up with the bright idea, let’s do another year. And I was kind of tired of it because the hours were bad. I mean, you know, get up at 3:00 in the morning and get to these dairies, you know, and you had to be there if you didn't get out there before they started milking, they would be done before you got there and they'd be done because only three or four pounds. And it took you most of the morning to get to some of these places. So you had to be there early and so had get up in the morning at 3:00, get in my Jep and take off. Those of us who had this milk project, had jeeps, the rest of the people had the bus. Then I get back and I’d go to the plant and deliver my samples, do the testing on them, get all the data, fill in my paperwork, and then I go back and get home maybe about 10 o’clock and go to bed. Sleep until lunchtime. And then life started again and again.

[Assistant] So that was what you were doing for the work. What did you do in your off time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The program was supposed to be one year and it was supposed that we were trying to transition, transition into something else. We never transitioned. The director, can’t remember the fellow’s name.

[Assistant] Barrone?

[User] Yeah, that's right, Barrone. We were getting close to transitioning, he came up with the bright idea, let’s do another year. And I was kind of tired of it because the hours were bad. I mean, you know, get up at 3:00 in the morning and get to these dairies, you know, and you had to be there if you didn't get out there before they started milking, they would be done before you got there and they'd be done because only three or four pounds. And it took you most of the morning to get to some of these places. So you had to be there early and so had get up in the morning at 3:00, get in my Jep and take off. Those of us who had this milk project, had jeeps, the rest of the people had the bus. Then I get back and I’d go to the plant and deliver my samples, do the testing on them, get all the data, fill in my paperwork, and then I go back and get home maybe about 10 o’clock and go to bed. Sleep until lunchtime. And then life started again and again.

[Assistant] So that was what you were doing for the work. What did you do in your off time?

[User] Learn to drink beer. Um, I liked going around town. You know, I used to spend a lot of time wandering the town and going into the marketplace and just wandering around, talking to people, just looking around.

[Assistant] You must have fit in pretty well. I mean, I bet they thought you were some kind of Latino.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learn to drink beer. Um, I liked going around town. You know, I used to spend a lot of time wandering the town and going into the marketplace and just wandering around, talking to people, just looking around.

[Assistant] You must have fit in pretty well. I mean, I bet they thought you were some kind of Latino.

[User] Yeah, they did. They spoke Spanish enough. I didn't have a real pronounced accent. You know, I could get along well. The people were very interesting, you know. And the fact that I was an American Latino, was different that a Latino from Argentina simply because it was some kind of animosity between some of the neighboring countries. You know, I liked it there. I mean, the two years was enough, but I liked it, had no problem with the time I was there.

[Assistant] So is there. Can you think of any significant things that happen to you or that you, while you were there, that really stand out? Well, you know, maybe significant is not the. Well, tell me about something that really is something that happened, really sticks out of your mind while you were there.

[User] The people were nice. They got along with everybody. I knew a lot of people like to converse with me and, you know, but, you know, when it comes out is when we first got to Bolivia, we were at the Lake Titicaca. And I always remember there was a beggar, you know, you see that guy.

[Assistant] Yeah, was he, uh, crippled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they did. They spoke Spanish enough. I didn't have a real pronounced accent. You know, I could get along well. The people were very interesting, you know. And the fact that I was an American Latino, was different that a Latino from Argentina simply because it was some kind of animosity between some of the neighboring countries. You know, I liked it there. I mean, the two years was enough, but I liked it, had no problem with the time I was there.

[Assistant] So is there. Can you think of any significant things that happen to you or that you, while you were there, that really stand out? Well, you know, maybe significant is not the. Well, tell me about something that really is something that happened, really sticks out of your mind while you were there.

[User] The people were nice. They got along with everybody. I knew a lot of people like to converse with me and, you know, but, you know, when it comes out is when we first got to Bolivia, we were at the Lake Titicaca. And I always remember there was a beggar, you know, you see that guy.

[Assistant] Yeah, was he, uh, crippled?

[User] Anyway, it was sad to see him.

[Assistant] Was that the first time you’d seen something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people were nice. They got along with everybody. I knew a lot of people like to converse with me and, you know, but, you know, when it comes out is when we first got to Bolivia, we were at the Lake Titicaca. And I always remember there was a beggar, you know, you see that guy.

[Assistant] Yeah, was he, uh, crippled?

[User] Anyway, it was sad to see him.

[Assistant] Was that the first time you’d seen something like that?

[User] Yeah, it was the first time I ever saw someone like that.

[Assistant] So moving on. Did you do any socializing when you were in Cochabamba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, it was sad to see him.

[Assistant] Was that the first time you’d seen something like that?

[User] Yeah, it was the first time I ever saw someone like that.

[Assistant] So moving on. Did you do any socializing when you were in Cochabamba?

[User] Just parties. The girls liked Americans. So the social life. Apparently, any guys that had anything going were gone. And the ones that were there were trying to go. Again, there were a lot of nice people. And that part is interesting.

[Assistant] So, uh. So over time, say at the end of the first year or say, for example, where were you when you heard about the Kennedy assassination?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was the first time I ever saw someone like that.

[Assistant] So moving on. Did you do any socializing when you were in Cochabamba?

[User] Just parties. The girls liked Americans. So the social life. Apparently, any guys that had anything going were gone. And the ones that were there were trying to go. Again, there were a lot of nice people. And that part is interesting.

[Assistant] So, uh. So over time, say at the end of the first year or say, for example, where were you when you heard about the Kennedy assassination?

[User] I can remember like it was yesterday, like it was today. I got off the bus. I lived actually in Cochabamba, a little suburb of Piacoyo, it was on the bus route. I'd gotten off the bus and was walking down toe street to the house and this girl comes up, pops her head out the window, and says, they shot your president.

[Assistant] Yeah. That was hard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just parties. The girls liked Americans. So the social life. Apparently, any guys that had anything going were gone. And the ones that were there were trying to go. Again, there were a lot of nice people. And that part is interesting.

[Assistant] So, uh. So over time, say at the end of the first year or say, for example, where were you when you heard about the Kennedy assassination?

[User] I can remember like it was yesterday, like it was today. I got off the bus. I lived actually in Cochabamba, a little suburb of Piacoyo, it was on the bus route. I'd gotten off the bus and was walking down toe street to the house and this girl comes up, pops her head out the window, and says, they shot your president.

[Assistant] Yeah. That was hard.

[User] That was hard. I remember that. And then apparently, listening to news, but that's when you remember seeing or hearing it. I still think it stands out.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that was very traumatic for all the Peace Corps volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can remember like it was yesterday, like it was today. I got off the bus. I lived actually in Cochabamba, a little suburb of Piacoyo, it was on the bus route. I'd gotten off the bus and was walking down toe street to the house and this girl comes up, pops her head out the window, and says, they shot your president.

[Assistant] Yeah. That was hard.

[User] That was hard. I remember that. And then apparently, listening to news, but that's when you remember seeing or hearing it. I still think it stands out.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that was very traumatic for all the Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Oh everybody. Yeah they all remember that, wherever they were.

[Assistant] So at the end of your first year, sounds like you didn’t have a hard time adjusting to the culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was hard. I remember that. And then apparently, listening to news, but that's when you remember seeing or hearing it. I still think it stands out.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that was very traumatic for all the Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Oh everybody. Yeah they all remember that, wherever they were.

[Assistant] So at the end of your first year, sounds like you didn’t have a hard time adjusting to the culture?

[User] No, I liked it there. The food was different, had to learn what to eat and where to eat, stuff like that. Always ran out of money.

[Assistant] It was all that beer drinking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh everybody. Yeah they all remember that, wherever they were.

[Assistant] So at the end of your first year, sounds like you didn’t have a hard time adjusting to the culture?

[User] No, I liked it there. The food was different, had to learn what to eat and where to eat, stuff like that. Always ran out of money.

[Assistant] It was all that beer drinking.

[User] And I got to eating and I would get done with my work around 10, 11 o’clock, you know, and I’d go to town. Couldn’t go to sleep, I’d go to town and have lunch, you know. Bolivians have something called salteñas. I liked those. And the best salteñas, even to Bolivians, were made by a Chinese guy. Go over there, he makes the best.

[Assistant] Was that about 10 o'clock in the morning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I liked it there. The food was different, had to learn what to eat and where to eat, stuff like that. Always ran out of money.

[Assistant] It was all that beer drinking.

[User] And I got to eating and I would get done with my work around 10, 11 o’clock, you know, and I’d go to town. Couldn’t go to sleep, I’d go to town and have lunch, you know. Bolivians have something called salteñas. I liked those. And the best salteñas, even to Bolivians, were made by a Chinese guy. Go over there, he makes the best.

[Assistant] Was that about 10 o'clock in the morning?

[User] From 11:00 until maybe 1:00.

[Assistant] Great. So in the long term, from where when you got done with your time in Bolivia, how did you feel about what you had done? Did you feel like you had done what you thought you what they thought you needed to do, or how did you feel about that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I got to eating and I would get done with my work around 10, 11 o’clock, you know, and I’d go to town. Couldn’t go to sleep, I’d go to town and have lunch, you know. Bolivians have something called salteñas. I liked those. And the best salteñas, even to Bolivians, were made by a Chinese guy. Go over there, he makes the best.

[Assistant] Was that about 10 o'clock in the morning?

[User] From 11:00 until maybe 1:00.

[Assistant] Great. So in the long term, from where when you got done with your time in Bolivia, how did you feel about what you had done? Did you feel like you had done what you thought you what they thought you needed to do, or how did you feel about that experience?

[User] Well, I felt I did what they were expecting me to do, you know, in social context. I tried to help the people who were successful, but they were really slow to change. But I was satisfied with me. You know, I was ready to go. I wouldn't have signed up for another tour. It was time for me to go. After seeing how Bolivians live with it and realize, you know, I've got to get going with that I need to do, go back to school and finish. So I did eventually finish, but I was 27 when I graduated from college. But no, I was content and I thought I did what they wanted, what they're expecting. I think Peace Corps at that time was expecting a volunteer to go down there and try, not get in trouble, you know, and be friendly to people. And I did all that.

[Assistant] Yeah, tell me if at the end of your tour, you mentioned this earlier, did you think that the preparation and the training helped at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From 11:00 until maybe 1:00.

[Assistant] Great. So in the long term, from where when you got done with your time in Bolivia, how did you feel about what you had done? Did you feel like you had done what you thought you what they thought you needed to do, or how did you feel about that experience?

[User] Well, I felt I did what they were expecting me to do, you know, in social context. I tried to help the people who were successful, but they were really slow to change. But I was satisfied with me. You know, I was ready to go. I wouldn't have signed up for another tour. It was time for me to go. After seeing how Bolivians live with it and realize, you know, I've got to get going with that I need to do, go back to school and finish. So I did eventually finish, but I was 27 when I graduated from college. But no, I was content and I thought I did what they wanted, what they're expecting. I think Peace Corps at that time was expecting a volunteer to go down there and try, not get in trouble, you know, and be friendly to people. And I did all that.

[Assistant] Yeah, tell me if at the end of your tour, you mentioned this earlier, did you think that the preparation and the training helped at all?

[User] Mostly the language portion helped and then the actual agriculture. Maybe living with the Indian American Indian reservation, the Maricopa, seeing how another way people live. People who came from the State Department to give you advice and stuff, they were worthless.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that I subsequently spent time in other doing other things down there, and it was true, but some people had no clue about anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I felt I did what they were expecting me to do, you know, in social context. I tried to help the people who were successful, but they were really slow to change. But I was satisfied with me. You know, I was ready to go. I wouldn't have signed up for another tour. It was time for me to go. After seeing how Bolivians live with it and realize, you know, I've got to get going with that I need to do, go back to school and finish. So I did eventually finish, but I was 27 when I graduated from college. But no, I was content and I thought I did what they wanted, what they're expecting. I think Peace Corps at that time was expecting a volunteer to go down there and try, not get in trouble, you know, and be friendly to people. And I did all that.

[Assistant] Yeah, tell me if at the end of your tour, you mentioned this earlier, did you think that the preparation and the training helped at all?

[User] Mostly the language portion helped and then the actual agriculture. Maybe living with the Indian American Indian reservation, the Maricopa, seeing how another way people live. People who came from the State Department to give you advice and stuff, they were worthless.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that I subsequently spent time in other doing other things down there, and it was true, but some people had no clue about anything.

[User] They weren’t there. I mean, if they were, they spent the time in their room.

[Assistant] So you did probably provide some technical assistance and probably help people understand the U.S. and Americans better, and you got to know the Bolivians and lived with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly the language portion helped and then the actual agriculture. Maybe living with the Indian American Indian reservation, the Maricopa, seeing how another way people live. People who came from the State Department to give you advice and stuff, they were worthless.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that I subsequently spent time in other doing other things down there, and it was true, but some people had no clue about anything.

[User] They weren’t there. I mean, if they were, they spent the time in their room.

[Assistant] So you did probably provide some technical assistance and probably help people understand the U.S. and Americans better, and you got to know the Bolivians and lived with them.

[User] And we were from America trying to help you with your cows. And we did. The plant went from production of about three thousand liters per day up to eight or 10 liters.

[Assistant] Oh that’s good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren’t there. I mean, if they were, they spent the time in their room.

[Assistant] So you did probably provide some technical assistance and probably help people understand the U.S. and Americans better, and you got to know the Bolivians and lived with them.

[User] And we were from America trying to help you with your cows. And we did. The plant went from production of about three thousand liters per day up to eight or 10 liters.

[Assistant] Oh that’s good.

[User] We had an impact, you know, and then the scientists there brought in the artificial insemination to try to improve the herds. It helped.

[Assistant] So after you got out the Peace Corps, have you had any continued involvement with Bolivia or Bolivians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we were from America trying to help you with your cows. And we did. The plant went from production of about three thousand liters per day up to eight or 10 liters.

[Assistant] Oh that’s good.

[User] We had an impact, you know, and then the scientists there brought in the artificial insemination to try to improve the herds. It helped.

[Assistant] So after you got out the Peace Corps, have you had any continued involvement with Bolivia or Bolivians?

[User] No.

[Assistant] The family you lived with there?