[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish more people did. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Or took it to heart.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] On that same train of thought, we all know that NASA celebrates its fiftieth anniversary next year. Share with us what you believe to be NASA’s impact on society in the past and now and even in the future.

[User] NASA’s impact on society, American society especially, is to do things and bring home things that are larger than life. NASA makes us look toward our future. People want to have a future. They want to have a frontier. They want to see and learn and imagine new things.\n\n People want to feed their kids and have a roof over their heads and dress warmly against the cold and not be hungry and not worry about where their next car payment is coming from, and they want to have some leisure time. Yes, people want all those things. But they also want to look beyond that when they can, and NASA is the entity above all others in this country that brings that to them.\n\n It’s not for nothing that 40 years after we did it, television commercials are still showing Apollo Moon rockets. They’ve had 40 years of other stuff they could substitute since that time, and they don’t; or even going beyond Apollo Moon rockets, beyond Apollo Moon walkers. Television commercials today are showing Apollo Moon walkers as part of their spiel. That’s not an accident.

[Assistant]
Steve, do you have more that you want to add?

Well, I have a couple of questions just to wrap up, not following on what you just said, but anyway, I know you came to NASA at the tail end of the SEI, the Space Exploration Initiative. Do you have lessons learned from that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] On that same train of thought, we all know that NASA celebrates its fiftieth anniversary next year. Share with us what you believe to be NASA’s impact on society in the past and now and even in the future.

[User] NASA’s impact on society, American society especially, is to do things and bring home things that are larger than life. NASA makes us look toward our future. People want to have a future. They want to have a frontier. They want to see and learn and imagine new things.\n\n People want to feed their kids and have a roof over their heads and dress warmly against the cold and not be hungry and not worry about where their next car payment is coming from, and they want to have some leisure time. Yes, people want all those things. But they also want to look beyond that when they can, and NASA is the entity above all others in this country that brings that to them.\n\n It’s not for nothing that 40 years after we did it, television commercials are still showing Apollo Moon rockets. They’ve had 40 years of other stuff they could substitute since that time, and they don’t; or even going beyond Apollo Moon rockets, beyond Apollo Moon walkers. Television commercials today are showing Apollo Moon walkers as part of their spiel. That’s not an accident.

[Assistant]
Steve, do you have more that you want to add?

Well, I have a couple of questions just to wrap up, not following on what you just said, but anyway, I know you came to NASA at the tail end of the SEI, the Space Exploration Initiative. Do you have lessons learned from that experience?

[User] I didn’t come at the tail; I came at the beginning of it.

[Assistant] At the beginning? You must have even more lessons learned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NASA’s impact on society, American society especially, is to do things and bring home things that are larger than life. NASA makes us look toward our future. People want to have a future. They want to have a frontier. They want to see and learn and imagine new things.\n\n People want to feed their kids and have a roof over their heads and dress warmly against the cold and not be hungry and not worry about where their next car payment is coming from, and they want to have some leisure time. Yes, people want all those things. But they also want to look beyond that when they can, and NASA is the entity above all others in this country that brings that to them.\n\n It’s not for nothing that 40 years after we did it, television commercials are still showing Apollo Moon rockets. They’ve had 40 years of other stuff they could substitute since that time, and they don’t; or even going beyond Apollo Moon rockets, beyond Apollo Moon walkers. Television commercials today are showing Apollo Moon walkers as part of their spiel. That’s not an accident.

[Assistant]
Steve, do you have more that you want to add?

Well, I have a couple of questions just to wrap up, not following on what you just said, but anyway, I know you came to NASA at the tail end of the SEI, the Space Exploration Initiative. Do you have lessons learned from that experience?

[User] I didn’t come at the tail; I came at the beginning of it.

[Assistant] At the beginning? You must have even more lessons learned.

[User] Yes, I was the AA for Exploration until it got canceled by the [William J.] Clinton administration.

[Assistant] So what year was that you came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was the AA for Exploration until it got canceled by the [William J.] Clinton administration.

[Assistant] So what year was that you came?

[User] ’91.

[Assistant] ’91, okay.

[User] I was the Exploration Administrator who was hired as a result of the Augustine Committee’s recommendations. I guess the lessons that I would say are learned from that time are that you’ve got to have the President and the Congress both in support. At that time we had the President’s support; the Congress emphatically was not.\n\n Today that’s not so. The Congress has been hugely supportive of our program. You never get unanimity, but the Authorization Act, which passed in 2005, December of ’05, was enormously supportive of our agenda. I have now Democratic committee chairs in both the House and the Senate. They are as supportive as were the Republicans.

[Assistant] So you’re hopeful that the Vision for Space Exploration will go forward, past this administration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it changes with time. I don’t think a relevant role for a commercial entity can be to send a human being to the Moon today. But I think a relevant role for commercial space activity today can be send a human into orbit and can be sending supplies into orbit. I think that is well within the reach of the industrial space community today.\n\n So it’s not what are the roles. It’s what is the attitude. The attitude should be to make available the power of government to offer its markets to commercial enterprise in a hands-off way to stimulate the development of that commercial enterprise. As the technology moves forward, the role of commercial provider can always increase, but not unless the attitude is right.

[Assistant]
Okay.

I have nothing further. Do you have any more?

No.

Is there anything you would like to add, Dr. Griffin? Anything at the end?

[User] I would like to add that you should call me Mike. [Laughter] “Dr. Griffin,” I don’t like that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you would like to add, Mike, before we close out this afternoon?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. No, I answer questions. I don’t pontificate. I try to answer questions. I hope I’ve answered yours.

[Assistant] Very well. We appreciate the time, and we’ll close for the day and let you get off to the rest of the business at hand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would like to add that you should call me Mike. [Laughter] “Dr. Griffin,” I don’t like that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you would like to add, Mike, before we close out this afternoon?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. No, I answer questions. I don’t pontificate. I try to answer questions. I hope I’ve answered yours.

[Assistant] Very well. We appreciate the time, and we’ll close for the day and let you get off to the rest of the business at hand.

[User] Call me if you need me.

[Assistant] We definitely will. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very long, very long, indeed. After Alan's flight, as soon as he was launched, I don't think I breathed for quite some time, and even then, his flight was, what, sixteen minutes. But those were very, very long minutes until we got the word that he was down-range and he had landed exactly where he was supposed to.\n\n Then I was taken over to the Cape air strip, and Dr. Douglas and I flew down to Grand Bahama Islands for the post-flight physical exams, and even though he had been recovered and was aboard the ship, he was going to be brought to GBI [Grand Bahama Islands] for his major physical exam. They were seen aboard a ship very briefly, but the more extensive medical exams were conducted there at GBI in that little fly-away hospital.

[Assistant] Do you remember any part of the conversation you had with Alan Shepard after you saw him?

[User] No, you know, I don't. I remember I was so relieved to see him. We all were. And there were so many people talking to him. I think I just smiled. I was just so glad to see him, I don't know that I said anything.

[Assistant] I'm sure your smile said all there was to say to him, too. I’m sure he was glad just to see you as well.

[User] Well, we were just so happy he was back, and it was a great accomplishment. Really, it was a great feat. I think we tend to forget that. With all the exotic technology we have now compared to what was done then, it was really an engineering feat that was unbelievable. The talent that NASA had back there, and really still has, but the talent back then was awesome. The best and the brightest wanted to work for NASA, and rightfully so, because it's a wonderful agency, and the opportunities were unlimited, just to be able to be a part of something as historic as these first flights or any of the flights, but particularly the first ones.

[Assistant] Then Gus Grissom went next. Was it easier for you to see the second one of your friends to launch, or was it as if you were living it all again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was afterwards when we heard the details. We were on GBI and didn’t have instant TV like they have now.

[Assistant] When John Glenn went up, was there a longer time that you had to feel your anxiety, or did you feel a little bit more comfortable this time?

[User] Well, yes. He was being launched on an Atlas, and we had watched those blow up right and left, and there was tremendous anxiety, at least, again, on my part. But John's flight, I don't remember how many times John's flight was scrubbed because of the weather, which was usually one of the determining factors, and in Florida, as you know, the weather can change instantly. But, again, we'd see a cloud coming, and so they would reschedule the time, or they’d put it into a hold, and that was simply because they just weren’t going to take any chances.

[Assistant] Every time that it was put on hold, did you have to start your procedures all over again?

[User] Yes. Well, we started some of the procedures all over again. We really didn’t do a lot of the in-depth exams on them. We just made sure that the heart, lung, and skin, and the ears were clear, and that sort of thing, before they left.

[Assistant] The others that followed, were all the procedures the same as you had done before, or were they changed as they went through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. He was being launched on an Atlas, and we had watched those blow up right and left, and there was tremendous anxiety, at least, again, on my part. But John's flight, I don't remember how many times John's flight was scrubbed because of the weather, which was usually one of the determining factors, and in Florida, as you know, the weather can change instantly. But, again, we'd see a cloud coming, and so they would reschedule the time, or they’d put it into a hold, and that was simply because they just weren’t going to take any chances.

[Assistant] Every time that it was put on hold, did you have to start your procedures all over again?

[User] Yes. Well, we started some of the procedures all over again. We really didn’t do a lot of the in-depth exams on them. We just made sure that the heart, lung, and skin, and the ears were clear, and that sort of thing, before they left.

[Assistant] The others that followed, were all the procedures the same as you had done before, or were they changed as they went through?

[User] Well, the preparation before flight was very much the same, yes. I don't know that anything much changed except probably in their simulator training. When an astronaut returned from his flight and during the debriefing, you kind of learn what things need to be changed, and they would try to modify or either add or take away from, say, the flight plan. But there weren't a lot of drastic medical changes.

[Assistant] Did that same method work for you in your medical area? Did you learn from what they had to say and then try to adapt based on what they were telling you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, we started some of the procedures all over again. We really didn’t do a lot of the in-depth exams on them. We just made sure that the heart, lung, and skin, and the ears were clear, and that sort of thing, before they left.

[Assistant] The others that followed, were all the procedures the same as you had done before, or were they changed as they went through?

[User] Well, the preparation before flight was very much the same, yes. I don't know that anything much changed except probably in their simulator training. When an astronaut returned from his flight and during the debriefing, you kind of learn what things need to be changed, and they would try to modify or either add or take away from, say, the flight plan. But there weren't a lot of drastic medical changes.

[Assistant] Did that same method work for you in your medical area? Did you learn from what they had to say and then try to adapt based on what they were telling you?

[User] Well, on the medical end of it, really didn’t, again, just didn’t change that much. Nowadays, of course, the medical exams are probably far more in depth than they were back then, and we have a lot more sophisticated equipment to work with than we did back there. We just didn't have much then.

[Assistant] Everything you kept, all your records, everything was done by hand, is that correct? You didn’t have any type of computer-based equipment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at times it seemed endless.

[Assistant] Because you watched these men and you watched them land on the Moon, but when they were on their way back, you were already getting the next crew ready. So your process just kept continuing?

[User] Yes, that’s true, and particularly during Gemini and Apollo, I really had no life of my own, because I was at the Cape for two months, I’d be home for two or three weeks, then I’d go back down to the Cape, and it was back and forth and back and forth. I have to confess that it really got old after a while because I was constantly living on the road. I had the same room at the Holiday Inn in Cocoa Beach for nine years. I’ve often joked that we need to make a shrine out of it one of these days.

[Assistant] Were you able to leave some of your things there, or did you have to start over?

[User] No, I would pack everything back up and then haul it right back down again.

[Assistant] Well, at least you knew where you were going every time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s true, and particularly during Gemini and Apollo, I really had no life of my own, because I was at the Cape for two months, I’d be home for two or three weeks, then I’d go back down to the Cape, and it was back and forth and back and forth. I have to confess that it really got old after a while because I was constantly living on the road. I had the same room at the Holiday Inn in Cocoa Beach for nine years. I’ve often joked that we need to make a shrine out of it one of these days.

[Assistant] Were you able to leave some of your things there, or did you have to start over?

[User] No, I would pack everything back up and then haul it right back down again.

[Assistant] Well, at least you knew where you were going every time.

[User] Yes. Oh, it was wonderful. It really was like going home whenever I would go down there, and you knew the same people, and everything was very familiar. I had the pleasure of going back for John’s [John H. Glenn, Jr.] flight in October, and I couldn’t believe how much the Cape had grown and changed, and to see, well, Paul [C.] Donnelly and Walter [J.] Kapryan and so many of these engineering people that I had worked with in Hangar S, and it was just wonderful to see everybody. Everybody was having such a good time reminiscing and remembering, and, of course, I was very pleased we were all upright and still walking around. But it was wonderful. It was very heart-warming just to be at the Cape again and to go to Bernard’s Surf and to see the people you’ve worked years and years ago. It was fun, and it was just a very special time.

[Assistant] And such a wonderful success.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I would pack everything back up and then haul it right back down again.

[Assistant] Well, at least you knew where you were going every time.

[User] Yes. Oh, it was wonderful. It really was like going home whenever I would go down there, and you knew the same people, and everything was very familiar. I had the pleasure of going back for John’s [John H. Glenn, Jr.] flight in October, and I couldn’t believe how much the Cape had grown and changed, and to see, well, Paul [C.] Donnelly and Walter [J.] Kapryan and so many of these engineering people that I had worked with in Hangar S, and it was just wonderful to see everybody. Everybody was having such a good time reminiscing and remembering, and, of course, I was very pleased we were all upright and still walking around. But it was wonderful. It was very heart-warming just to be at the Cape again and to go to Bernard’s Surf and to see the people you’ve worked years and years ago. It was fun, and it was just a very special time.

[Assistant] And such a wonderful success.

[User] Oh, and it was so successful, yes, and that’s the other part, and I was so glad that John got to fly again. I know there was some criticism and criticism of NASA, but, come on, it didn't hurt anything, and he deserved to fly again.

[Assistant] Have you had a chance to talk with him since he’s returned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, it was wonderful. It really was like going home whenever I would go down there, and you knew the same people, and everything was very familiar. I had the pleasure of going back for John’s [John H. Glenn, Jr.] flight in October, and I couldn’t believe how much the Cape had grown and changed, and to see, well, Paul [C.] Donnelly and Walter [J.] Kapryan and so many of these engineering people that I had worked with in Hangar S, and it was just wonderful to see everybody. Everybody was having such a good time reminiscing and remembering, and, of course, I was very pleased we were all upright and still walking around. But it was wonderful. It was very heart-warming just to be at the Cape again and to go to Bernard’s Surf and to see the people you’ve worked years and years ago. It was fun, and it was just a very special time.

[Assistant] And such a wonderful success.

[User] Oh, and it was so successful, yes, and that’s the other part, and I was so glad that John got to fly again. I know there was some criticism and criticism of NASA, but, come on, it didn't hurt anything, and he deserved to fly again.

[Assistant] Have you had a chance to talk with him since he’s returned?

[User] No, not since he's been back, no. But his son, David, and his wife and the grandkids live there in Berkeley [California], and I met his grandson, who’s just a darling youngster. He came down to interview me for one of his school projects. They're very nice kids, and, of course, very proud of Grandpa, and rightfully so.

[Assistant] This mission that you were talking about, with John Glenn, had such a lasting impression on you. As you mentioned, all of them have. But was there one that you remember more than the others, or did they just mesh into each other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, and it was so successful, yes, and that’s the other part, and I was so glad that John got to fly again. I know there was some criticism and criticism of NASA, but, come on, it didn't hurt anything, and he deserved to fly again.

[Assistant] Have you had a chance to talk with him since he’s returned?

[User] No, not since he's been back, no. But his son, David, and his wife and the grandkids live there in Berkeley [California], and I met his grandson, who’s just a darling youngster. He came down to interview me for one of his school projects. They're very nice kids, and, of course, very proud of Grandpa, and rightfully so.

[Assistant] This mission that you were talking about, with John Glenn, had such a lasting impression on you. As you mentioned, all of them have. But was there one that you remember more than the others, or did they just mesh into each other?

[User] Well, one would think that they would kind of mesh. But as far as the flights, each one was really very special because it was that particular guy’s flight, and you’re always so happy for them that they finally got to fly and do what they’d worked and trained for and wanted to do for so long.

[Assistant] It must have been special for you then to watch Deke Slayton finally get to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not since he's been back, no. But his son, David, and his wife and the grandkids live there in Berkeley [California], and I met his grandson, who’s just a darling youngster. He came down to interview me for one of his school projects. They're very nice kids, and, of course, very proud of Grandpa, and rightfully so.

[Assistant] This mission that you were talking about, with John Glenn, had such a lasting impression on you. As you mentioned, all of them have. But was there one that you remember more than the others, or did they just mesh into each other?

[User] Well, one would think that they would kind of mesh. But as far as the flights, each one was really very special because it was that particular guy’s flight, and you’re always so happy for them that they finally got to fly and do what they’d worked and trained for and wanted to do for so long.

[Assistant] It must have been special for you then to watch Deke Slayton finally get to go.

[User] Ah, that was wonderful. The crew had asked me to come back for the mission. I was here at Ames at the time, and, of course, the flight was in July of ’75. What a thrill to see Deke. I don’t think anyone begrudged him that flight. I mean, he finally got to fly, and, as you know, he wasn’t allowed his Mercury flight. So everyone was thrilled to death that he got to go on this ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] mission.

[Assistant] You got to know Deke Slayton as one of the seven, but his role changed when he became in charge of the astronaut corps. Were you still able to have a close relationship with him after he moved into that management position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, one would think that they would kind of mesh. But as far as the flights, each one was really very special because it was that particular guy’s flight, and you’re always so happy for them that they finally got to fly and do what they’d worked and trained for and wanted to do for so long.

[Assistant] It must have been special for you then to watch Deke Slayton finally get to go.

[User] Ah, that was wonderful. The crew had asked me to come back for the mission. I was here at Ames at the time, and, of course, the flight was in July of ’75. What a thrill to see Deke. I don’t think anyone begrudged him that flight. I mean, he finally got to fly, and, as you know, he wasn’t allowed his Mercury flight. So everyone was thrilled to death that he got to go on this ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] mission.

[Assistant] You got to know Deke Slayton as one of the seven, but his role changed when he became in charge of the astronaut corps. Were you still able to have a close relationship with him after he moved into that management position?

[User] Yes, because he was always at the Cape whenever the crews came down for their flight. There was a certain cadre of people, and Deke was definitely always there. He was in charge of the astronauts. He made the flight selections. He made the crew selections. That never changed. When I was in Houston, he always came for his physical exams. So I did see him then, and I would see him around the center. But the relationship never really changed at all.

[Assistant] And once you had these guys in your life, they just didn’t go away, did they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah, that was wonderful. The crew had asked me to come back for the mission. I was here at Ames at the time, and, of course, the flight was in July of ’75. What a thrill to see Deke. I don’t think anyone begrudged him that flight. I mean, he finally got to fly, and, as you know, he wasn’t allowed his Mercury flight. So everyone was thrilled to death that he got to go on this ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] mission.

[Assistant] You got to know Deke Slayton as one of the seven, but his role changed when he became in charge of the astronaut corps. Were you still able to have a close relationship with him after he moved into that management position?

[User] Yes, because he was always at the Cape whenever the crews came down for their flight. There was a certain cadre of people, and Deke was definitely always there. He was in charge of the astronauts. He made the flight selections. He made the crew selections. That never changed. When I was in Houston, he always came for his physical exams. So I did see him then, and I would see him around the center. But the relationship never really changed at all.

[Assistant] And once you had these guys in your life, they just didn’t go away, did they?

[User] I never let them get away. They tried, but they were never successful.

[Assistant] Yes, I bet they knew where to find you, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, because he was always at the Cape whenever the crews came down for their flight. There was a certain cadre of people, and Deke was definitely always there. He was in charge of the astronauts. He made the flight selections. He made the crew selections. That never changed. When I was in Houston, he always came for his physical exams. So I did see him then, and I would see him around the center. But the relationship never really changed at all.

[Assistant] And once you had these guys in your life, they just didn’t go away, did they?

[User] I never let them get away. They tried, but they were never successful.

[Assistant] Yes, I bet they knew where to find you, too.

[User] [Laughs] Oh, yes, they did know where to find me.

[Assistant] When you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, there was some transition. Did you still have your authority as far as your management was concerned? Because you were changing locations, did you have to change roles? Could you share with us some of those changes that went on with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never let them get away. They tried, but they were never successful.

[Assistant] Yes, I bet they knew where to find you, too.

[User] [Laughs] Oh, yes, they did know where to find me.

[Assistant] When you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, there was some transition. Did you still have your authority as far as your management was concerned? Because you were changing locations, did you have to change roles? Could you share with us some of those changes that went on with that?

[User] Well, I went from being an Air Force employee to a NASA employee, obviously another government employee. My duties certainly expanded because now we had wives and children, and that entailed other things, other than just flight-type activities or pre-flight medical activities. It became busier because the population kept growing and growing.\n\n Now we were dealing with the wives and with the children. It had been decided that the flight medicine clinic not only would see the astronauts, but the charter was for us was to see and care for the families, in addition to all the pilots that flew NASA aircraft that are based there at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas]. But the medical care was, again, to be afforded to the families, and the reason we were designated as family physicians was that the astronauts were usually always on travel or gone and rarely ever home, and at least this way they knew that they could go away from home, knowing that if anything happened, we were there to take care of their families. If it was above what we could do in flight medicine, they were referred to a specialist. But the flight surgeons and myself became the family physicians for them, if you will.

[Assistant] That must have been a comfort to the families and to the astronauts, though, that they could go anywhere they needed to go and that their families were safe and kept private, the dealings with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it seemed that it was a very busy time. I was there, what, ten years, and I think there was only one year out of the ten that I was able to take most of my annual leave. We’d have flights over Thanksgiving and Christmas. So holidays really weren’t a big issue. But nobody really seemed to mind, because your whole goal was to be there and to get the guy launched safely and recover it safely. So holidays became almost nonexistent much of the time.

[Assistant] No day was routine, but yet, did you have many days, or can you remember a day that you had a surprise or incidents or a situation that came up that you felt that you had to deal with on a real-time basis that just hadn’t occurred before?

[User] [Laughs] Well, a couple of times when the astronauts were out training in the lunar vehicle, in what we used to call the “flying bedstead” out there at Ellington’s, and a couple of them happened to land in chiggers. This one, particularly, came racing into the office, dropped his pants, and said, “My god, I’m dying. Do something.” Of course, that was a wonderful sight. [Laughter] I’d say, “God , the blinds are open. Don’t—.” Well, anyway, they’d finally end up closing the door, and we’d pull the blinds. But wonderful, fun things like that fortunately didn’t happen all that often.

[Assistant] I guess that expression "You've seen everything" must have come true at some point. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. Nothing surprised me, believe me, or very little surprised me. You're right. The days weren't routine, and yet, in many ways, they were.

[Assistant] Sometimes the astronauts would play practical jokes, as many times that people get together, they do. Do you feel that that helped them bond with each other, or did they ever surprise you with any of those types of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All at once, and, yes, I was terrified. But that went away quickly. But I don’t think it was instant bonding. But then it’s like with anything. The more you’re exposed, either a friend or whatever, the better you get to know them, and that takes time. Friends take time, and friendships develop over time.

[Assistant] Were you easily recognizable to them? Were you in a nurse uniform?

[User] Oh, yes, I wore a white Air Force nurse’s uniform and wore an Air Force nurse’s cap. Well, I was the only female out there, so I sort of stood out like a sore thumb.

[Assistant] You were easy to find in that crowd.

[User] [Laughs] Well, yes, and I’m not very short either.

[Assistant] At the time, becoming a nurse was a comfortable position for a woman. People accepted that. But you definitely were in an environment filled with men.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I wore a white Air Force nurse’s uniform and wore an Air Force nurse’s cap. Well, I was the only female out there, so I sort of stood out like a sore thumb.

[Assistant] You were easy to find in that crowd.

[User] [Laughs] Well, yes, and I’m not very short either.

[Assistant] At the time, becoming a nurse was a comfortable position for a woman. People accepted that. But you definitely were in an environment filled with men.

[User] Back then it was completely a man’s world. In fact, when I was growing up, you either became a nurse, a teacher, or a secretary. Those were people’s life ambition, and there was probably the odd female engineer, but women really weren’t encouraged to, as they say now, “be all that you can be,” and I’d always wanted to be a schoolteacher. But fortunately, I got over that.\n\n So at the Cape, it really was totally a man’s world. I was the only female in Hangar S, except for maybe there was probably a secretary here or there. It was all men, and never once was I ever discriminated against or never made to feel uncomfortable. It was a wonderful, absolutely wonderful environment. Of course, I wasn’t really the sensitive kind, if you will, or looking for every little nuance, that I think is prevalent today. But I was just treated beautifully by everyone and nicely and with respect, and we had a lot of fun. We joked and kidded around, but we were also very professional, and we each had our job to do. But I was never discriminated against. In fact, in my entire career, I’ve never felt that.

[Assistant] Although you were the only female, you were the only nurse, and you began creating this position and this role that had never been thought of before, did you see yourself as the astronauts’ nurse or an aerospace nurse or a nurse filling a job? How did you see yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, for aerospace, definitely. But that whole field has grown over the years, and I don’t think through anything I’ve done. But the whole field of aerospace medicine has definitely grown because, again, there are more pilots and now there are more astronauts, and it’s a whole specialty field now. It’s like sports medicine.

[Assistant] Do you have something that you feel is the greatest accomplishment that you were able to do when you were in this part of your life?

[User] No, not really. I don’t know of any one thing. I was probably the only consistent medical person in their life, if you will, from Mercury through the Skylab program all those years. I don’t know that you would consider that a great accomplishment, and I don’t know that I accomplished anything spectacular, that I did myself. Again, it was my association with them and what that brought, really.

[Assistant] But you did keep going through all this one long continuous stay that ended up being your career. Did you find that to be one of your hardest parts, was just to keep going?

[User] Well, yes, there were days when I wondered if I was going to make through the day. I got very tired. In fact, when I left to come here in ’73, I remember I was at the Cape, and it must have been the last Apollo flight, and I was walking down the hall, and I thought, “What are you doing here?” I was so tired. I didn’t have any help, and it just became overwhelming. So finally at that point I decided I just had to have a change, and at that time a lot of my favorite people were leaving and going on to other jobs. Well, obviously, I think it could be diagnosed as true job burnout. But I was very, very tired, and I was just worn out at that point.

[Assistant] Tell us about the change in duties and the change in responsibilities for NASA now that you have moved on to Ames.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I don’t know of any one thing. I was probably the only consistent medical person in their life, if you will, from Mercury through the Skylab program all those years. I don’t know that you would consider that a great accomplishment, and I don’t know that I accomplished anything spectacular, that I did myself. Again, it was my association with them and what that brought, really.

[Assistant] But you did keep going through all this one long continuous stay that ended up being your career. Did you find that to be one of your hardest parts, was just to keep going?

[User] Well, yes, there were days when I wondered if I was going to make through the day. I got very tired. In fact, when I left to come here in ’73, I remember I was at the Cape, and it must have been the last Apollo flight, and I was walking down the hall, and I thought, “What are you doing here?” I was so tired. I didn’t have any help, and it just became overwhelming. So finally at that point I decided I just had to have a change, and at that time a lot of my favorite people were leaving and going on to other jobs. Well, obviously, I think it could be diagnosed as true job burnout. But I was very, very tired, and I was just worn out at that point.

[Assistant] Tell us about the change in duties and the change in responsibilities for NASA now that you have moved on to Ames.

[User] Well, I went from a very operational environmental, totally operational, into a research environment. Boy, that was not an easy transition.

[Assistant] Did you find your pace slowed down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. That was in the office environment. Yes. It improved a lot when we got a Control Center. Then you could get things run in relatively real time and know where things stood and know what you had to do.

[Assistant] So you could do it all right there where you guys were.

[User] Right there.

[Assistant] This will be a little bit of a jump, but I don't want to, again, cover too much that was in your earlier interview. In the missions, as you began, you had talked about training in your earlier interviews and how a lot of what you had to do—you put together these tapes, and sometimes they matched what happened and sometimes didn't in the training.

[User] What people did, yes.

[Assistant] With that training, could you go into a little more details on what you would do there, the control team, but also working with the astronauts and maybe even some of the engineering teams to try and help—did you work together to try and build those training, or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learn more as you go.

[Assistant] We talked a little bit about your training and the computers, how you would have to, in the office, run back and forth, but when you got in the control room things could go at a faster pace, looking at those computers that you were using in the Mercury Program and then through Gemini and Apollo and comparing them to what we have today.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, the stuff we had, I can't rattle off the specifics of it, but the computing machines that we were using, IBM make at the time, were sort of centralized facilities, as mainframes were at that time, still are to some degree, but the power of those machines was probably less than what people have in their pentium processor PCs today. I mean, it was limited, and we had to program them and keep them stable for a while, so you couldn't change it very easily, it sort of had a certain way of being inputted to and a certain way of outputting, and that was it.\n\n Today the young people can rearrange their displays, their color displays and so on. In our time, we had to figure that out ahead of time, how we wanted to look at things, and program it all, and it was fairly rigid, because to change it would take months to get it changed through the software system and to get it tested and validated and verified and be sure enough that it was right so that we could use it in a flight. So we went pretty slow on making any changes in the computer system, and therefore we had to anticipate what we wanted and program it ahead of time, and sometimes, when we got there, it wasn't exactly in the form we needed, but that's the way it worked.

[Assistant] And it did work.

[User] It worked, but the machines were probably nowhere near as powerful as the average machine that people have on their desk today.

[Assistant] We look at how history will look back at things, and kids nowadays are raised with pentium computers sitting on their desks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, the stuff we had, I can't rattle off the specifics of it, but the computing machines that we were using, IBM make at the time, were sort of centralized facilities, as mainframes were at that time, still are to some degree, but the power of those machines was probably less than what people have in their pentium processor PCs today. I mean, it was limited, and we had to program them and keep them stable for a while, so you couldn't change it very easily, it sort of had a certain way of being inputted to and a certain way of outputting, and that was it.\n\n Today the young people can rearrange their displays, their color displays and so on. In our time, we had to figure that out ahead of time, how we wanted to look at things, and program it all, and it was fairly rigid, because to change it would take months to get it changed through the software system and to get it tested and validated and verified and be sure enough that it was right so that we could use it in a flight. So we went pretty slow on making any changes in the computer system, and therefore we had to anticipate what we wanted and program it ahead of time, and sometimes, when we got there, it wasn't exactly in the form we needed, but that's the way it worked.

[Assistant] And it did work.

[User] It worked, but the machines were probably nowhere near as powerful as the average machine that people have on their desk today.

[Assistant] We look at how history will look back at things, and kids nowadays are raised with pentium computers sitting on their desks.

[User] I know. I know.

[Assistant] Do you think they might look back at these early programs and say, "Wow, how did they do that with what they had?"


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked, but the machines were probably nowhere near as powerful as the average machine that people have on their desk today.

[Assistant] We look at how history will look back at things, and kids nowadays are raised with pentium computers sitting on their desks.

[User] I know. I know.

[Assistant] Do you think they might look back at these early programs and say, "Wow, how did they do that with what they had?"

[User] Well, they might. Certainly the kids who are real good at computers, which most of them are, would certainly, if they knew what we had in those days and were able to compare them with what they use today, they would probably laugh. But I think the thing that I sense in young people who want to look back and hear about it is, they respond more to the adventure of it than they do to the technical details of how good or bad or early the computing systems were. My conversations with young people, they just get fired up about how exciting that was and how exciting it will be again in the future some day when we go farther away from Earth orbit than we are able to do with the Shuttle and the Space Station.\n\n So we're in kind of a consolidation period of exploiting lower Earth orbit, and that has its own adventure, its own agenda for adventure, built into it. But the Apollo stuff, I think, triggers in people kind of a sense that something big and something unique and something first time in the annals of humankind was done, and it was done fairly early on with nowhere near the kind of technology available to people today, especially in the computing field. I think people recognize that. I don't know if they have exact bit-for-bit comparisons to the capability that we had, but I think it's the adventure that captures them.

[Assistant] And what an adventure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. I know.

[Assistant] Do you think they might look back at these early programs and say, "Wow, how did they do that with what they had?"

[User] Well, they might. Certainly the kids who are real good at computers, which most of them are, would certainly, if they knew what we had in those days and were able to compare them with what they use today, they would probably laugh. But I think the thing that I sense in young people who want to look back and hear about it is, they respond more to the adventure of it than they do to the technical details of how good or bad or early the computing systems were. My conversations with young people, they just get fired up about how exciting that was and how exciting it will be again in the future some day when we go farther away from Earth orbit than we are able to do with the Shuttle and the Space Station.\n\n So we're in kind of a consolidation period of exploiting lower Earth orbit, and that has its own adventure, its own agenda for adventure, built into it. But the Apollo stuff, I think, triggers in people kind of a sense that something big and something unique and something first time in the annals of humankind was done, and it was done fairly early on with nowhere near the kind of technology available to people today, especially in the computing field. I think people recognize that. I don't know if they have exact bit-for-bit comparisons to the capability that we had, but I think it's the adventure that captures them.

[Assistant] And what an adventure.

[User] Yes, it was, a great adventure, a grand adventure.

[Assistant] You moved from the Mercury Program to Gemini, and with that move, the Space Center moved to Houston. When did you hear that it was going to move to Houston, and what were your thoughts at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very crucial, and it doesn't get full recognition, I don't think, for how significant it was. It enabled the Apollo Program to be successful in terms of schedule, to be successful and to get there within the decade, which was the original goal. I think we would have gotten there, but it would have taken longer. As a matter of fact, I've also observed that it probably would have taken us so long that we might have experienced Apollo 13 before we ever landed on the moon if we did not have the Gemini Program, and who knows how that might have changed the history and the dynamics of things.\n\n It was great, and it was great fun. I mean, we just had a wonderful time doing it. We just had a wonderful time.

[Assistant] It wasn't all that hard work, like you said before.

[User] No, it's not work. My father did that. I didn't have to work.

[Assistant] Gemini was crucial, and so I'd like to talk some about each of the missions and what involvement you did have with it. I know you said you didn't have a whole lot of involvement on the earlier programs, but you were in the Control Center?

[User] Yes. Gemini III was the first manned flight, John [W.] Young and Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom. I think I had the sequence—I mean, I never can remember exactly what the sequence was, but we were just bringing this Control Center over here on line. So I think the first mission, the Gemini III—although I could be wrong about this and flip the locations—but I think the primary team went to the Cape, and we operated the Control Center back here as a test. So I was a flight director running the Control Center back here, following on to the thing at the Cape. And then on the next flight, Gemini IV, the primary flight team was back here running this Control Center, and I went down to the Cape in case something happened to this one because it was our first one. So I was involved in the first two flights in that way, and I saw it was Gemini III and IV, but—I think so.

[Assistant] I think that's correct.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the right direction.

[Assistant] When Grissom and Young tested out this new spacecraft with all these different systems, and you said you were working in the mission control here as the back-up to the one in Florida, do you remember how the mission went, both from—

[User] It was very short. All I remember is it went fine.

[Assistant] And everything in the Mission Control, then, tested out fine as well?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] The next mission, then, was a very big step, too, with the EVA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all went well.

[Assistant] Luckily, you didn't have as many learning steps as you did with the EVA.

[User] Well, Gemini was probably the learning experience. When we got to Apollo, we liked to keep it on track, nominal, kind of don't deviate. Once we got to the moon, we weren't into doing tests with how to do this, because we had to get them there to the command ship to get home. And they all turned out that way. As a matter of fact, Apollo 11, that was the shift I was on, the ascent from the moon and the rendezvous back to the command ship, and it just went by the book. Everything worked just fine.

[Assistant] And luckily it was all—not all, but a good portion, due to the success of Gemini.

[User] Successes in Gemini, and, of course, the Apollo hardware worked greatly. It was great stuff, worked great most of the time, and, you know, everybody was ready for it.

[Assistant] I have a few more questions before we wind up for the day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Gemini was probably the learning experience. When we got to Apollo, we liked to keep it on track, nominal, kind of don't deviate. Once we got to the moon, we weren't into doing tests with how to do this, because we had to get them there to the command ship to get home. And they all turned out that way. As a matter of fact, Apollo 11, that was the shift I was on, the ascent from the moon and the rendezvous back to the command ship, and it just went by the book. Everything worked just fine.

[Assistant] And luckily it was all—not all, but a good portion, due to the success of Gemini.

[User] Successes in Gemini, and, of course, the Apollo hardware worked greatly. It was great stuff, worked great most of the time, and, you know, everybody was ready for it.

[Assistant] I have a few more questions before we wind up for the day.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You were beginning to work as the flight director in these missions that we've talked about in some detail. I'd like to go back one step to talk about Gemini VIII briefly, if we could. Were you in mission control at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Successes in Gemini, and, of course, the Apollo hardware worked greatly. It was great stuff, worked great most of the time, and, you know, everybody was ready for it.

[Assistant] I have a few more questions before we wind up for the day.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You were beginning to work as the flight director in these missions that we've talked about in some detail. I'd like to go back one step to talk about Gemini VIII briefly, if we could. Were you in mission control at the time?

[User] I was around, yes. I was sitting around watching it, but I wasn't assigned a shift or anything. I was there, and when the vehicle started to spin up and when the crew separated, that was, I think, the first time we really landed in a contingency landing area. I may have my oceans wrong, but we were planning for the Atlantic, and we ended up landing in the Pacific, terminated the flight early, and so on. Yes, I was around watching all that.

[Assistant] Comparing that to when you were around for Apollo 13, which was another big event, what was the seriousness of Gemini VIII?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did. He did.

[Assistant] I know ideas are still being bandied about with the tether.

[User] I think so, yes, and there will be applications for it. I don't know what they are yet, but there will be. But it was exciting.

[Assistant] I guess at the time you were just trying everything you could think of that might apply to what you could need.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You've talked about Gemini being such a vital step between Mercury and Apollo and making it happen and achieving the goal of landing on the moon by the end of the decade. There was at one time, though, some talk to go straight from Mercury to Apollo. Had you heard of any of that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really.

[Assistant] So I think in the next few years, hopefully.

[User] That's a story worth telling. And they brought a mix because, well, one, we were all American people, but most of them had a NASA-NACA—all our management all had an NACA background.\n\n By the way, as part of that background, Bob Gilruth, for example, actively cooperated from Langley Aeronautics to England, whatever the research organization was called over there, I've forgotten, with all the World War II stuff. So he was actively involved in helping to orchestrate the best of both of us in terms of aeronautic research and aeronautic applications. But those men had a different kind of experience and a different kind of background and so on, so they brought just another mix to the soup, or stew, that was becoming the Space Task Group. A tremendous addition. A tremendous addition.

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] I'm glad you brought it up.

[Assistant]
Summer, did you have any questions?

Yes, I have a couple of questions. The first is, you mentioned that the Space Task Group mainly had a NACA state of mind, basically, which, from my understanding, is more pure research than—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a story worth telling. And they brought a mix because, well, one, we were all American people, but most of them had a NASA-NACA—all our management all had an NACA background.\n\n By the way, as part of that background, Bob Gilruth, for example, actively cooperated from Langley Aeronautics to England, whatever the research organization was called over there, I've forgotten, with all the World War II stuff. So he was actively involved in helping to orchestrate the best of both of us in terms of aeronautic research and aeronautic applications. But those men had a different kind of experience and a different kind of background and so on, so they brought just another mix to the soup, or stew, that was becoming the Space Task Group. A tremendous addition. A tremendous addition.

[Assistant] Thank you.

[User] I'm glad you brought it up.

[Assistant]
Summer, did you have any questions?

Yes, I have a couple of questions. The first is, you mentioned that the Space Task Group mainly had a NACA state of mind, basically, which, from my understanding, is more pure research than—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So how difficult was it to make that transition from that research state of mind to a functioning program or work crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The last flight I worked, actually worked on personally as a flight controller, was STS-4. After that I was in management: technical assistant, a branch chief, and then eventually deputy division, division [chief], and then I moved to facilities. I can also give you some other names if you want to get some more detail. Why don’t we go through the questions or however you’d like to do this and then see where it goes.

[Assistant] That’s perfectly fine. I’m just looking for information to flesh this out.

[User] Let me see. Did you get to read what I wrote?

[Assistant] I did, I did, yes.

[User] Did you have any questions on those?

[Assistant] I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit more about the facility modifications themselves.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me see. Did you get to read what I wrote?

[Assistant] I did, I did, yes.

[User] Did you have any questions on those?

[Assistant] I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit more about the facility modifications themselves.

[User] Let’s see. I numbered. You mean typical changes instituted at MCC [Mission Control Center], that question?

[Assistant] Yes, the typical changes instituted at the MCC for a new Space Shuttle mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you have any questions on those?

[Assistant] I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit more about the facility modifications themselves.

[User] Let’s see. I numbered. You mean typical changes instituted at MCC [Mission Control Center], that question?

[Assistant] Yes, the typical changes instituted at the MCC for a new Space Shuttle mission.

[User] Let me give you some more as background. The Mission Control Center originally, of course, was built for Apollo. Then it was modified or evolved over time. Some of it was just pure replacement of hardware. IBM [International Business Machines], “Here’s a new machine; we got a new operating system.” So we incorporated those kind of things, and then we laid our apps [applications] on top of that. As technology evolved, when you could justify it, you’d bring it in. Apollo evolved to Skylab, and then Skylab evolved to Shuttle. The Mission Control Center originally for Shuttle, from the outside, looked pretty much like it did for Apollo and Skylab.

[Assistant] You were using the same consoles for STS-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, two things come to mind. One is, when I—when it was happening in all of that era, I don’t think any of us really recognized how significant what we were doing—it—we knew it was significant. We didn’t realize, I don’t think at the time, how fortunate [we were] and what kind of capability did we have to have to ever even get into this position. In many cases, I think I go back again to the analogy of the fighter squadron. You go into a fighter squadron today, just like then, and one of the things that always shocks you is how young these people look. And they are young. I mean, those F-15s and F-16s and F-22s that are coming along now, these—they look like kids flying them.\n\n And I’m sure that the—that we looked that way. Because in many cases, and I’ve discussed this with Gene Kranz, he was looking for people with flying backgrounds because he thought that skill would transfer, and there was no other place to go find them. And he thought that skill would transfer. And so I really think it—we were young. But it was the—it was a young person’s business. Now the big difference I see today, which is of course a big improvement, is that we were all guys. All men. And of course, now we have men and women in Mission Control—and should have them. We just didn’t have the skill base at that time to do that.

[Assistant] The rest of the country hadn’t caught up either.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You didn’t have the people in the pipeline.

[User] We were right along with the rest of the country.

[Assistant] So Kraft’s protégés is that first tier of flight directors—John [D.] Hodge, Gene Kranz, Glynn [S.] Lunney—were all people that you worked closely with. I’d be interested in your kind of thumbnail sketches of each of those. And what did they pick up uniquely from Kraft? What did they bring to it themselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You didn’t have the people in the pipeline.

[User] We were right along with the rest of the country.

[Assistant] So Kraft’s protégés is that first tier of flight directors—John [D.] Hodge, Gene Kranz, Glynn [S.] Lunney—were all people that you worked closely with. I’d be interested in your kind of thumbnail sketches of each of those. And what did they pick up uniquely from Kraft? What did they bring to it themselves?

[User] You know, the guy that probably became more Kraft-like was Lunney. Glynn Lunney had many of the same traits as Kraft. He was quick to make a decision. He was a little blustery every once in a while. Confident as all get out. And I always thought that Glynn had a lot of Kraft look to him and feel to him. Kranz was—had some Kraft kind of features to him, but he was his own guy. As you know, he—we always called him the Prussian General. He—and he had that very military bearing, preciseness, the—that Kraft didn’t. Kraft, I think, went more on gut feel and emotion and—, where Gene was more of a do-it-by-the-numbers, by-the-book kind of [guy]. John Hodge, I don’t think, matched any of the others. He came from a different—he was a technical guy.

[Assistant] Hodge came out of the Canadian—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, the guy that probably became more Kraft-like was Lunney. Glynn Lunney had many of the same traits as Kraft. He was quick to make a decision. He was a little blustery every once in a while. Confident as all get out. And I always thought that Glynn had a lot of Kraft look to him and feel to him. Kranz was—had some Kraft kind of features to him, but he was his own guy. As you know, he—we always called him the Prussian General. He—and he had that very military bearing, preciseness, the—that Kraft didn’t. Kraft, I think, went more on gut feel and emotion and—, where Gene was more of a do-it-by-the-numbers, by-the-book kind of [guy]. John Hodge, I don’t think, matched any of the others. He came from a different—he was a technical guy.

[Assistant] Hodge came out of the Canadian—

[User] Avro—

[Assistant] —Avro group.

[User] —group. And John brought a different set of skills to the table. He was a very strong technical guy. And I think operations was not his first choice or first love or anything like that. And I think that’s one reason he didn’t stay in it very long. I think he had other talents that went to work somewhere else. And, you know, he got—I think, as I recall, he went into advanced programs when he left. He was very good. He was a visionary almost. Flight operations didn’t have much room for visionary. You had to make the hardware work that you had in front of you at the time. So I think John did fine as a flight director, but he just didn’t stay in it very long because I don’t think it was his bag. But they were all very capable people, and all fun to work with.

[Assistant] Which of the bunch, if you were working as a flight controller, a member of the team—which was the easiest for you to work with and to work for of that bunch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Avro—

[Assistant] —Avro group.

[User] —group. And John brought a different set of skills to the table. He was a very strong technical guy. And I think operations was not his first choice or first love or anything like that. And I think that’s one reason he didn’t stay in it very long. I think he had other talents that went to work somewhere else. And, you know, he got—I think, as I recall, he went into advanced programs when he left. He was very good. He was a visionary almost. Flight operations didn’t have much room for visionary. You had to make the hardware work that you had in front of you at the time. So I think John did fine as a flight director, but he just didn’t stay in it very long because I don’t think it was his bag. But they were all very capable people, and all fun to work with.

[Assistant] Which of the bunch, if you were working as a flight controller, a member of the team—which was the easiest for you to work with and to work for of that bunch?

[User] Oh I think when I was a flight controller, the guy that I probably related to the fastest (and of course he was an icon to me, even though he probably shouldn’t have been but was) Kraft. I always felt honored to work with him when he was flight director. But, Gene Kranz was always easy, and so was Lunney. They were—none of them [were] difficult. They were all demanding to the point that they wanted you to be prepared. And that was not an issue in those days. We all worked so hard at what we were trying to do and, as I said earlier, nobody wanted to screw up in front of the peers. So it was—the best motivation we had was the peer pressure.

[Assistant] Kranz’s organization always struck me as being helpful because he worried every little issue and problem and communicated them so thoroughly over the loop that everybody knew what was going on—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —group. And John brought a different set of skills to the table. He was a very strong technical guy. And I think operations was not his first choice or first love or anything like that. And I think that’s one reason he didn’t stay in it very long. I think he had other talents that went to work somewhere else. And, you know, he got—I think, as I recall, he went into advanced programs when he left. He was very good. He was a visionary almost. Flight operations didn’t have much room for visionary. You had to make the hardware work that you had in front of you at the time. So I think John did fine as a flight director, but he just didn’t stay in it very long because I don’t think it was his bag. But they were all very capable people, and all fun to work with.

[Assistant] Which of the bunch, if you were working as a flight controller, a member of the team—which was the easiest for you to work with and to work for of that bunch?

[User] Oh I think when I was a flight controller, the guy that I probably related to the fastest (and of course he was an icon to me, even though he probably shouldn’t have been but was) Kraft. I always felt honored to work with him when he was flight director. But, Gene Kranz was always easy, and so was Lunney. They were—none of them [were] difficult. They were all demanding to the point that they wanted you to be prepared. And that was not an issue in those days. We all worked so hard at what we were trying to do and, as I said earlier, nobody wanted to screw up in front of the peers. So it was—the best motivation we had was the peer pressure.

[Assistant] Kranz’s organization always struck me as being helpful because he worried every little issue and problem and communicated them so thoroughly over the loop that everybody knew what was going on—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and it got worked over and over and over again. So the problem and the approach that was being taken was so clear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and it got worked over and over and over again. So the problem and the approach that was being taken was so clear.

[User] Yeah. Gene was by far the most detailed guy and all that. But he—everybody knew what he was trying to do and where he was headed. Kraft and Lunney [were] more gut feel. Strong technically also, but [they] had that guy feel that could—most of the time they knew the answer already. So did Gene.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Even when I became a flight director, by the time you elevate to that point you pretty well know what’s going on. But you’ve got these great guys that—

[Assistant] I never had the pleasure of seeing Kraft operating as a flight director. But the one trait that I sensed all of you had, from him, was the tendency to make the flight controllers take the responsibility for the decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Gene was by far the most detailed guy and all that. But he—everybody knew what he was trying to do and where he was headed. Kraft and Lunney [were] more gut feel. Strong technically also, but [they] had that guy feel that could—most of the time they knew the answer already. So did Gene.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Even when I became a flight director, by the time you elevate to that point you pretty well know what’s going on. But you’ve got these great guys that—

[Assistant] I never had the pleasure of seeing Kraft operating as a flight director. But the one trait that I sensed all of you had, from him, was the tendency to make the flight controllers take the responsibility for the decision.

[User] Amen. That is what we learned, all of us learned, from Kraft, watching him. He would never, ever try to do your job. I recall on Apollo (I think it was Apollo 12), after we got hit by lightning, I was—

[Assistant] I was going to ask you about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Even when I became a flight director, by the time you elevate to that point you pretty well know what’s going on. But you’ve got these great guys that—

[Assistant] I never had the pleasure of seeing Kraft operating as a flight director. But the one trait that I sensed all of you had, from him, was the tendency to make the flight controllers take the responsibility for the decision.

[User] Amen. That is what we learned, all of us learned, from Kraft, watching him. He would never, ever try to do your job. I recall on Apollo (I think it was Apollo 12), after we got hit by lightning, I was—

[Assistant] I was going to ask you about that.

[User] Okay. Maybe I should wait—

[Assistant] No, go ahead. That’s fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Amen. That is what we learned, all of us learned, from Kraft, watching him. He would never, ever try to do your job. I recall on Apollo (I think it was Apollo 12), after we got hit by lightning, I was—

[Assistant] I was going to ask you about that.

[User] Okay. Maybe I should wait—

[Assistant] No, go ahead. That’s fine.

[User] I was just going to say: I can remember, we got hit by lightning right after liftoff, and it tumbled the spacecraft’s platform, and thank God the Saturn V continued to work just fine. And I was the flight director, and it was my first job as a launch flight director. And I thought we were going to have to abort. I never will forget that feeling. My heart was in my throat. I could—but the training came through. We are—I’ve gone back and listened to that voice tape a lot of times. And nobody was ever hurried. Nobody was panicked. First thing I did was I looked at the plot and asked the FIDO (the flight dynamics officer), were we still okay? And we were gaining altitude. And I remember, flashing through my mind very fast, that, “Well, if we’re going to abort, let’s don’t abort early. Let’s get some more altitude and we’ll just punch off this thing if we have to.”\n\n To make a long story short: We got everything back under control. But the platform was still rolling. The inertial platform that measured your attitude in—

[Assistant] This was in the spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That’s right. And so he—but he thought under all of that he saw a flash. And so that’s what started us thinking that it may have been a lightning strike, and it’s what worried us. Because at the point that we got into orbit, we weren’t sure if we’d fried something back in the back end in the service module. Because we didn’t know where it had hit—and—the lightning, if it was lightning.\n\n We got some quick pictures out of the Cape. I think that we might’ve already even started on our way to the Moon by then. They got some pictures out of the Cape that showed some lightning discharges back down. We probably created our own lightning, is what we finally figured out months later. A week later.\n\n But we were afraid we may have fried something so badly that we jeopardized the mission. We checked out everything we could in the rear end on the service module. And that proved to be a good call. We went on to the Moon. We had a worry about the heatshield. And the reason that we did is because we didn’t know if it had done any—if the lightning had hit right back in that area, it might’ve cracked it or damaged it or something. Of course that played out later.

[Assistant] Well, it wouldn’t have made it any worse if you’d gone on to the Moon before coming back around anyway.

[User] That’s right. And once we got into orbit, I mean, we had that that trip to make anyway.

[Assistant] You had to come back sooner or later.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] I don’t know how many vehicles have been struck by lightning in launch, but I know of at least two Atlases that were struck by lightning that that were lost.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. And once we got into orbit, I mean, we had that that trip to make anyway.

[Assistant] You had to come back sooner or later.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] I don’t know how many vehicles have been struck by lightning in launch, but I know of at least two Atlases that were struck by lightning that that were lost.

[User] Really?

[Assistant] One of them a couple of years after—well, several years after. In fact, it was fairly close to the Challenger [51-L]. They were after the Challenger accident when an Atlas was launched in very similar circumstances at the Cape [Cape Canaveral, Florida], hit by lightning, and it tumbled—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] I don’t know how many vehicles have been struck by lightning in launch, but I know of at least two Atlases that were struck by lightning that that were lost.

[User] Really?

[Assistant] One of them a couple of years after—well, several years after. In fact, it was fairly close to the Challenger [51-L]. They were after the Challenger accident when an Atlas was launched in very similar circumstances at the Cape [Cape Canaveral, Florida], hit by lightning, and it tumbled—

[User] Tumbled it.

[Assistant] —the guidance system, and it was lost.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really?

[Assistant] One of them a couple of years after—well, several years after. In fact, it was fairly close to the Challenger [51-L]. They were after the Challenger accident when an Atlas was launched in very similar circumstances at the Cape [Cape Canaveral, Florida], hit by lightning, and it tumbled—

[User] Tumbled it.

[Assistant] —the guidance system, and it was lost.

[User] You know, we were so fortunate in Apollo 12. I—you know we had the separate guidance system for the launch vehicle (the Saturn), and then we had the spacecraft guidance system. And during the launch phase, the spacecraft guidance system was just along for the ride. And somehow that lightning, when it hit, got this guidance system, but it did nothing to the Saturn’s guidance system. And if it had been the other way around, that could’ve been a—it could’ve been a real disaster. A real tragedy. And, so we were very—we were extremely lucky.

[Assistant] Well, in fact a couple of people were in a position (the commander, Pete Conrad, and you and the flight controllers) to have made an abort call on the information you had—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tumbled it.

[Assistant] —the guidance system, and it was lost.

[User] You know, we were so fortunate in Apollo 12. I—you know we had the separate guidance system for the launch vehicle (the Saturn), and then we had the spacecraft guidance system. And during the launch phase, the spacecraft guidance system was just along for the ride. And somehow that lightning, when it hit, got this guidance system, but it did nothing to the Saturn’s guidance system. And if it had been the other way around, that could’ve been a—it could’ve been a real disaster. A real tragedy. And, so we were very—we were extremely lucky.

[Assistant] Well, in fact a couple of people were in a position (the commander, Pete Conrad, and you and the flight controllers) to have made an abort call on the information you had—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —if you had reacted immediately, wouldn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he didn’t say “What?” He had remembered it, and he—as soon as he did it, it restored our data. And then we could see—he—John could see that the fuel cells had been kicked off line and the reentry batteries were the only thing holding up any voltages at all. And—

[Assistant] The crew was in the dark for part of that, weren’t they?

[User] Well, they—almost the dark. They—the lights—the main cabin lights were out. But he still had the caution and warning lights, and there were some other minor lights. They never did go completely dark, but it was a touch-and-go situation. When I listen to that on tape now, from the time the thing started till the time we had power restored, I think is something a little less than 2 minutes. At the time it seemed like it was forever. But all that time we were gaining altitude, and so I figured, “Let’s don’t do anything here until we—.” It was obvious that the Saturn was steering okay. So—

[Assistant] As I recall, you got the tape from the internal crew conversations in the cockpit at that time. With downlink, very quickly we had those in Mission Control.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] That was a pretty lively tape.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they—almost the dark. They—the lights—the main cabin lights were out. But he still had the caution and warning lights, and there were some other minor lights. They never did go completely dark, but it was a touch-and-go situation. When I listen to that on tape now, from the time the thing started till the time we had power restored, I think is something a little less than 2 minutes. At the time it seemed like it was forever. But all that time we were gaining altitude, and so I figured, “Let’s don’t do anything here until we—.” It was obvious that the Saturn was steering okay. So—

[Assistant] As I recall, you got the tape from the internal crew conversations in the cockpit at that time. With downlink, very quickly we had those in Mission Control.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] That was a pretty lively tape.

[User] And I’ve still got a copy of those. And they’re very funny. It was a little bit—those three guys were a little bit like—you know sometime in a car accident or a near car accident when you have a close call and then you talk about it and everybody gets kind of giddy and “Whoo boy, that was close!” “Yeah, yeah, that was—.” These guys, between themselves, Pete had that giggly laugh anyway, and he started laughing. He said, “Good Lord!” he said, “I had no idea what was happening there. Yeah.” They were—they sounded like three kids. But it was because of the giddiness of damn near buying it and getting by it.

[Assistant] They were also, in a very methodical way, however, amidst all that going step by step—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] That was a pretty lively tape.

[User] And I’ve still got a copy of those. And they’re very funny. It was a little bit—those three guys were a little bit like—you know sometime in a car accident or a near car accident when you have a close call and then you talk about it and everybody gets kind of giddy and “Whoo boy, that was close!” “Yeah, yeah, that was—.” These guys, between themselves, Pete had that giggly laugh anyway, and he started laughing. He said, “Good Lord!” he said, “I had no idea what was happening there. Yeah.” They were—they sounded like three kids. But it was because of the giddiness of damn near buying it and getting by it.

[Assistant] They were also, in a very methodical way, however, amidst all that going step by step—

[User] Step by step.

[Assistant] —responding to the ground and putting stuff back on line.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I’ve still got a copy of those. And they’re very funny. It was a little bit—those three guys were a little bit like—you know sometime in a car accident or a near car accident when you have a close call and then you talk about it and everybody gets kind of giddy and “Whoo boy, that was close!” “Yeah, yeah, that was—.” These guys, between themselves, Pete had that giggly laugh anyway, and he started laughing. He said, “Good Lord!” he said, “I had no idea what was happening there. Yeah.” They were—they sounded like three kids. But it was because of the giddiness of damn near buying it and getting by it.

[Assistant] They were also, in a very methodical way, however, amidst all that going step by step—

[User] Step by step.

[Assistant] —responding to the ground and putting stuff back on line.

[User] Getting stuff back on line. And when you listen to the air-to-ground voice tape, it was very disciplined. Click click. It—I have to say, every time I hear it and I listen—I had reason to listen to it several times. It kind of makes you proud of the way the whole thing got carried off and was responded to. It was a lot like the Apollo 11 landing. You listen to that and it will make those team members should have a lot of pride over that.

[Assistant] One of the things that the—, of course, the press pointed out at that time was that President [Richard M.] Nixon was in the viewing stands. And there was a suggestion that if the President had not been there, NASA might have been a little more conservative about launching into a solid overcast with lightning potential.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Step by step.

[Assistant] —responding to the ground and putting stuff back on line.

[User] Getting stuff back on line. And when you listen to the air-to-ground voice tape, it was very disciplined. Click click. It—I have to say, every time I hear it and I listen—I had reason to listen to it several times. It kind of makes you proud of the way the whole thing got carried off and was responded to. It was a lot like the Apollo 11 landing. You listen to that and it will make those team members should have a lot of pride over that.

[Assistant] One of the things that the—, of course, the press pointed out at that time was that President [Richard M.] Nixon was in the viewing stands. And there was a suggestion that if the President had not been there, NASA might have been a little more conservative about launching into a solid overcast with lightning potential.

[User] Yeah. I didn’t buy that.

[Assistant] That had no bearing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that was when he was waiting for the spacecraft to come out from behind the Moon after they had supposedly fired their engine to start them back to Earth.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And of course, that was on his shoulders.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So he was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And of course, that was on his shoulders.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So he was—

[User] And that was a single engine had to work. And, of course, we did that every mission after that, that went to the Moon. But that was one engine. One engine bell. A lot of redundancy in the piping and all that. But there was only one rocket chamber, and only one set of fuel tanks, and it had to work. And it did. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] Well the crew must’ve had an awful lot of confidence in Mission Control by that time to trust those sets of numbers that would put them into an orbit that was just 60 miles—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So he was—

[User] And that was a single engine had to work. And, of course, we did that every mission after that, that went to the Moon. But that was one engine. One engine bell. A lot of redundancy in the piping and all that. But there was only one rocket chamber, and only one set of fuel tanks, and it had to work. And it did. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] Well the crew must’ve had an awful lot of confidence in Mission Control by that time to trust those sets of numbers that would put them into an orbit that was just 60 miles—

[User] 60 miles.

[Assistant] —above the surface instead of 60 miles into it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was a single engine had to work. And, of course, we did that every mission after that, that went to the Moon. But that was one engine. One engine bell. A lot of redundancy in the piping and all that. But there was only one rocket chamber, and only one set of fuel tanks, and it had to work. And it did. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] Well the crew must’ve had an awful lot of confidence in Mission Control by that time to trust those sets of numbers that would put them into an orbit that was just 60 miles—

[User] 60 miles.

[Assistant] —above the surface instead of 60 miles into it.

[User] Right. In fact Al [Alan L. Bean, or Alan B. Shepard, Jr.] said, you know, every one of them said it. The impression they had when they got a look at the Moon up close, before they went into—that they were going to hit it, because they had watched this little bitty circle get bigger and bigger and bigger. And then all of a sudden they were right up against it, and they couldn’t see the horizons even. And they all had the feeling they were going to hit it. So, yeah, 60 miles is not very far.

[Assistant] Did they ask you to double-check the numbers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 60 miles.

[Assistant] —above the surface instead of 60 miles into it.

[User] Right. In fact Al [Alan L. Bean, or Alan B. Shepard, Jr.] said, you know, every one of them said it. The impression they had when they got a look at the Moon up close, before they went into—that they were going to hit it, because they had watched this little bitty circle get bigger and bigger and bigger. And then all of a sudden they were right up against it, and they couldn’t see the horizons even. And they all had the feeling they were going to hit it. So, yeah, 60 miles is not very far.

[Assistant] Did they ask you to double-check the numbers?

[User] No. They never asked us to double check. I can recall, and I think it was Apollo 14 and I think it was [Edgar D.] Ed Mitchell that said something about, “You guys, you sure you’re right with those numbers?” or something like that. He meant it as a joke. But I think the message was there.

[Assistant] As I recall from the questions at the time, the crew didn’t really get a good visual look at the Moon until they got very close to it because of the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. In fact Al [Alan L. Bean, or Alan B. Shepard, Jr.] said, you know, every one of them said it. The impression they had when they got a look at the Moon up close, before they went into—that they were going to hit it, because they had watched this little bitty circle get bigger and bigger and bigger. And then all of a sudden they were right up against it, and they couldn’t see the horizons even. And they all had the feeling they were going to hit it. So, yeah, 60 miles is not very far.

[Assistant] Did they ask you to double-check the numbers?

[User] No. They never asked us to double check. I can recall, and I think it was Apollo 14 and I think it was [Edgar D.] Ed Mitchell that said something about, “You guys, you sure you’re right with those numbers?” or something like that. He meant it as a joke. But I think the message was there.

[Assistant] As I recall from the questions at the time, the crew didn’t really get a good visual look at the Moon until they got very close to it because of the—

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] —attitude of the spacecraft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They never asked us to double check. I can recall, and I think it was Apollo 14 and I think it was [Edgar D.] Ed Mitchell that said something about, “You guys, you sure you’re right with those numbers?” or something like that. He meant it as a joke. But I think the message was there.

[Assistant] As I recall from the questions at the time, the crew didn’t really get a good visual look at the Moon until they got very close to it because of the—

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] —attitude of the spacecraft.

[User] That’s exactly right. They didn’t see—they saw it fairly far out. And then once they started getting closer and they got into position with the injection burn and all that, they didn’t see much of it. And so it was a leap of faith that we had any—.\n\n You know, a lot of people don’t understand. I’ve explained this to folks that this problem was a little bit like a shooting a shotgun, shooting a clay pigeon moving across in front of him. That the Moon was in orbit, and our vehicle, we actually had to aim out this way and let the two collide. Rendezvous, if you will. And it just—intuitively you think there could be a lot of room for error. And it turns out that we had learned early on in Ranger and some of those Voyagers and things like that—Well, Voyager came later, but—some of the Ranger stuff they had done. We’d figured out pretty early that we could navigate to the Moon. And—but it—I’m sure some of them thought that we were going to hit it.

[Assistant] It’s no longer precise, but once you were in orbit it was a little different question. Because you didn’t understand the lunar gravity that well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] —attitude of the spacecraft.

[User] That’s exactly right. They didn’t see—they saw it fairly far out. And then once they started getting closer and they got into position with the injection burn and all that, they didn’t see much of it. And so it was a leap of faith that we had any—.\n\n You know, a lot of people don’t understand. I’ve explained this to folks that this problem was a little bit like a shooting a shotgun, shooting a clay pigeon moving across in front of him. That the Moon was in orbit, and our vehicle, we actually had to aim out this way and let the two collide. Rendezvous, if you will. And it just—intuitively you think there could be a lot of room for error. And it turns out that we had learned early on in Ranger and some of those Voyagers and things like that—Well, Voyager came later, but—some of the Ranger stuff they had done. We’d figured out pretty early that we could navigate to the Moon. And—but it—I’m sure some of them thought that we were going to hit it.

[Assistant] It’s no longer precise, but once you were in orbit it was a little different question. Because you didn’t understand the lunar gravity that well.

[User] That’s right. The lunar gravity is not consistent, caused by these concentrations of masses [mascons]. And we did see some early indications that we didn’t understand the Moon’s gravitational pull as well as we thought we had. But we learned what those were later and refined it.

[Assistant] Before we get completely away from Gemini, that program seemed to have a tremendous bearing on the success of Apollo. And I’d like to get your thoughts on what you and the flight control team and the astronauts, the operations team, got out of Gemini that made Apollo successful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] I don’t know if somebody planned it that way or not.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] A couple of the things that Gemini advanced, of course, was the rendezvous (as you mentioned) and the spacewalking, EVA.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But both of those were not without their difficulties in Gemini and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] A couple of the things that Gemini advanced, of course, was the rendezvous (as you mentioned) and the spacewalking, EVA.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But both of those were not without their difficulties in Gemini and—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —those repairs that were called for, rendezvous was almost counter to it—what needed to be done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But both of those were not without their difficulties in Gemini and—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —those repairs that were called for, rendezvous was almost counter to it—what needed to be done.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And there—once people understood what was going on they said, “Well, of course” and [Sir Isaac] Newton—cited Newton’s Laws of Motion to explain that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —those repairs that were called for, rendezvous was almost counter to it—what needed to be done.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And there—once people understood what was going on they said, “Well, of course” and [Sir Isaac] Newton—cited Newton’s Laws of Motion to explain that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But it wasn’t apparent to the fighter pilots who were flying those spacecraft at first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But it wasn’t apparent to the fighter pilots who were flying those spacecraft at first.

[User] Right. In fact in Gemini IV, [James A.] McDivitt was trying to—you recall, was trying to chase the booster. And he kept thrusting toward it, and—which is the worse thing he could have done at the time, because of the dynamics of the setup. That—but when we actually got to doing a real, you know, co-elliptic rendezvous, they all worked just fine.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it had to be set up correctly. And the training paid off finally that you can’t just start thrusting and manhandle your way into a—to a rendezvous. It’s got to be done just a very delicate maneuver.\n\n And I’m amazed even today when we’ve had zillions of Shuttle flights with all the rendezvous with the—and never one has been blown. It just—it works.

[Assistant] Now EVA was a bit problematic. The early missions—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. In fact in Gemini IV, [James A.] McDivitt was trying to—you recall, was trying to chase the booster. And he kept thrusting toward it, and—which is the worse thing he could have done at the time, because of the dynamics of the setup. That—but when we actually got to doing a real, you know, co-elliptic rendezvous, they all worked just fine.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it had to be set up correctly. And the training paid off finally that you can’t just start thrusting and manhandle your way into a—to a rendezvous. It’s got to be done just a very delicate maneuver.\n\n And I’m amazed even today when we’ve had zillions of Shuttle flights with all the rendezvous with the—and never one has been blown. It just—it works.

[Assistant] Now EVA was a bit problematic. The early missions—

[User] It was.

[Assistant] —the EVAs didn’t go well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it had to be set up correctly. And the training paid off finally that you can’t just start thrusting and manhandle your way into a—to a rendezvous. It’s got to be done just a very delicate maneuver.\n\n And I’m amazed even today when we’ve had zillions of Shuttle flights with all the rendezvous with the—and never one has been blown. It just—it works.

[Assistant] Now EVA was a bit problematic. The early missions—

[User] It was.

[Assistant] —the EVAs didn’t go well.

[User] And, you know, there was a reason for that. Gemini wasn’t really designed to be an EVA vehicle. But when [Aleksei A.] Leonov did his thing (the first Russian that did the spacewalk), we kind of, I think, said, “Well, we can do one of those, too.” And Leonov didn’t do anything much except get out, and that’s essentially what [Edward H.] Ed White [II] did on Gemini IV.\n\n And in later missions, you know, they did do a little better work. Better hand rails; better foot restraints; actually tried some tools and that sort of thing. And so we learned a lot. I think by the time we got to Apollo, the Gemini rendezvous or the EVA work had been very helpful. But I—you know, we didn’t start Gemini with a big EVA thing in mind. It was more of a rendezvous, long-duration—longer duration kind of purpose. But we added that EVA stuff in there, and it worked okay. It was just not easy. It wasn’t designed to work.

[Assistant] Well wouldn’t Apollo have been a much more difficult enterprise if you hadn’t had the rendezvous—the EVA experience in Gemini?