[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well—No, that’s kind of a—that’s what—I think Jack put the Sim people up to it, because it wasn’t a Sim back with Houston. It was just done locally at the Cape. And I think Jack Schmitt went to those guys and tried to set me up.

[Assistant] He never confirmed that?

[User] But we—you know, they in the duplication of controls, with the exception of rate of descent switch, is almost either side can utilize the navigational equipment and perform those things.

[Assistant] Now, in the summer of 1970, you’re in training still as a backup to Apollo 15, correct? And you get the word that Apollo 18’s been canceled. And that’s what you’re banking on as being the your chance to be prime.

[User] Somewhere along in that timeframe, yes. I don’t recall the exact dates or the sequence of when I did learn that.

[Assistant] Or do you even know where you were when you heard it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we—you know, they in the duplication of controls, with the exception of rate of descent switch, is almost either side can utilize the navigational equipment and perform those things.

[Assistant] Now, in the summer of 1970, you’re in training still as a backup to Apollo 15, correct? And you get the word that Apollo 18’s been canceled. And that’s what you’re banking on as being the your chance to be prime.

[User] Somewhere along in that timeframe, yes. I don’t recall the exact dates or the sequence of when I did learn that.

[Assistant] Or do you even know where you were when you heard it?

[User] No. I have no idea.

[Assistant] But you know your reaction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somewhere along in that timeframe, yes. I don’t recall the exact dates or the sequence of when I did learn that.

[Assistant] Or do you even know where you were when you heard it?

[User] No. I have no idea.

[Assistant] But you know your reaction.

[User] Yeah. I said, “How the hell am I going to get to fly 17?” That was my reaction.

[Assistant] Was—you immediately thought, “I’ve got to angle for that last flight.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I have no idea.

[Assistant] But you know your reaction.

[User] Yeah. I said, “How the hell am I going to get to fly 17?” That was my reaction.

[Assistant] Was—you immediately thought, “I’ve got to angle for that last flight.”

[User] No, I didn’t try to angle. I said, “I want to fly 17!” They really—with Deke Slayton, there wasn’t much angling going on that we made!

[Assistant] Do—when Apollo 15 flew and you knew that prime crew—one of the things that came out of Apollo 15, and it’s unfair that it’s remembered for this, is the stamp affair. You know, and the fact that it was later determined that the guys took these stamps along and, you know, “We’re going to make some money off selling these stamp covers that had been to the Moon.” Do you remember what your reaction was when that came out and that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I said, “How the hell am I going to get to fly 17?” That was my reaction.

[Assistant] Was—you immediately thought, “I’ve got to angle for that last flight.”

[User] No, I didn’t try to angle. I said, “I want to fly 17!” They really—with Deke Slayton, there wasn’t much angling going on that we made!

[Assistant] Do—when Apollo 15 flew and you knew that prime crew—one of the things that came out of Apollo 15, and it’s unfair that it’s remembered for this, is the stamp affair. You know, and the fact that it was later determined that the guys took these stamps along and, you know, “We’re going to make some money off selling these stamp covers that had been to the Moon.” Do you remember what your reaction was when that came out and that—

[User] I was long gone. I had left the Program.

[Assistant] You had left because you were—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. 15 flew in, what? July of ’71. I believe that’s correct. And then after 15 had flown their flight, I went back and assumed responsibility for the Office in terms of advanced projects and worked on that on an original design of the Orbiter for six months.

[Assistant] And how long did you have your duties as Head of the Apollo Branch in the Astronaut Office?

[User] Until I retired.

[Assistant] And Chief—Okay.

[User] From that—from the end of Apollo 15 for that next six-month period until I retired in January of ’72.

[Assistant] So, January of ’72 you retired. And there was already work being done on the Orbiter and the Shuttle Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Until I retired.

[Assistant] And Chief—Okay.

[User] From that—from the end of Apollo 15 for that next six-month period until I retired in January of ’72.

[Assistant] So, January of ’72 you retired. And there was already work being done on the Orbiter and the Shuttle Program.

[User] Original designs.

[Assistant] And what did you think of the Shuttle Program initially? What was your first reaction when you said, “We’re going to build this space plane. And it’s going to be able to land and take off and be reused again.” What was your initial—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From that—from the end of Apollo 15 for that next six-month period until I retired in January of ’72.

[Assistant] So, January of ’72 you retired. And there was already work being done on the Orbiter and the Shuttle Program.

[User] Original designs.

[Assistant] And what did you think of the Shuttle Program initially? What was your first reaction when you said, “We’re going to build this space plane. And it’s going to be able to land and take off and be reused again.” What was your initial—

[User] Well, I thought that was the first logical first step to try and find a vehicle you can reuse. Everything we’d flown up until that time was space hardware and space junk, really. We dumped the boosters in the ocean or wherever they went. Everything that we flew could not be ever used again, except for displays in museums! So, I anticipated that that was a very interesting prospect. When we first started out, we were going to reuse the booster. We were going to fly them back and put somebody in them!\n\n And we were going to fly the boosters back and land to be reused. The Orbiter itself was going to be reused. And the arguments that we had, or the discussions, I should say, because really that’s what they were, was whether this Orbiter was going to have engines on it to begin with, before it first came—before its first flight. Whether or not it was going to have ejection seats. All of these things were being discussed and evaluated to the point that the boosters were even going to be manned and flown back. How would you like to have been that pilot? And so, these things were all in discussions in that six-month period. Those are the kinds of things that we looked at and tried to simulate different landing aspects. People were making tape for the simulators that would come back and land as a glider.

[Assistant] What was your specific—I mean, do you remember specific involvements that you had in those early days of the Shuttle Program? Just in that short period of time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Original designs.

[Assistant] And what did you think of the Shuttle Program initially? What was your first reaction when you said, “We’re going to build this space plane. And it’s going to be able to land and take off and be reused again.” What was your initial—

[User] Well, I thought that was the first logical first step to try and find a vehicle you can reuse. Everything we’d flown up until that time was space hardware and space junk, really. We dumped the boosters in the ocean or wherever they went. Everything that we flew could not be ever used again, except for displays in museums! So, I anticipated that that was a very interesting prospect. When we first started out, we were going to reuse the booster. We were going to fly them back and put somebody in them!\n\n And we were going to fly the boosters back and land to be reused. The Orbiter itself was going to be reused. And the arguments that we had, or the discussions, I should say, because really that’s what they were, was whether this Orbiter was going to have engines on it to begin with, before it first came—before its first flight. Whether or not it was going to have ejection seats. All of these things were being discussed and evaluated to the point that the boosters were even going to be manned and flown back. How would you like to have been that pilot? And so, these things were all in discussions in that six-month period. Those are the kinds of things that we looked at and tried to simulate different landing aspects. People were making tape for the simulators that would come back and land as a glider.

[Assistant] What was your specific—I mean, do you remember specific involvements that you had in those early days of the Shuttle Program? Just in that short period of time?

[User] Mostly management meetings and discussions about how we were going to build it, how we were going to do it. Flying some of the early simulations, we found that we could’ve flown—

[Assistant] You personally flew some early simulations of the Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’m not John Young. John Young could stick it out. I had an opportunity to do something else. A good friend of mine here in Houston, John Meekham, owned the New Orleans Saints. And we met—well, I’d known John many, many years. As a matter of fact, raced his boats for him; and we became friends. And we met, I forget exactly when, along in the end—near the end of 1971 at a reception that President Nixon had for race car drivers. USAC and NASCAR and those. He had the people that were involved in that, we had become friends with as well, so the Apollo 12 crew we’re lifetime members of USAC. And those people that knew that had invited us back to the White House for a reception for the race car drivers.\n\n And at that time, John approached me and asked if I’d be interested in going to New Orleans and working for him over there with the football team. I didn’t respond, obviously, right away but reflected upon it. I had 22 years of military service. I could retire from the Navy. I looked down the road to flights and there weren’t anymore. The three Skylab flights were assigned. The ASTP [Apollo Soyuz Test Project] missions were all assigned. So, beyond that, and that was the 1975 timeframe, beyond that, there weren’t anymore flights. And I was—I came here to fly. I had the opportunity to fly twice, and I saw no additional opportunities to fly. The good Lord only knew when Orbiter was going to fly, and it wasn’t until 1981! And I decided that I needed to do something else.

[Assistant] Still a Saints fan?

[User] I can follow them. I’m not sure what—if I’m a fan. Losing is agony.

[Assistant] The—so, you had retired before Apollo 17. Or—

[User] Yes, I retired before 16.

[Assistant] So, but you went back to watch Apollo 17? I’ve read that you were at the Kennedy—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can follow them. I’m not sure what—if I’m a fan. Losing is agony.

[Assistant] The—so, you had retired before Apollo 17. Or—

[User] Yes, I retired before 16.

[Assistant] So, but you went back to watch Apollo 17? I’ve read that you were at the Kennedy—

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] —Space Center. Correct. What were you feelings? Reflecting on—this was a flight you had fought hard, I mean, you had fought really hard to get onto that flight, and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I retired before 16.

[Assistant] So, but you went back to watch Apollo 17? I’ve read that you were at the Kennedy—

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] —Space Center. Correct. What were you feelings? Reflecting on—this was a flight you had fought hard, I mean, you had fought really hard to get onto that flight, and—

[User] All those—that emotion’s gone and over with, you know. There’s nothing—you can’t go back and create anything. I just enjoyed being there and taking friends. Took the Meekhams as my guest to watch the launch. It was the first night launch of the Saturn V; and in spite of all the delays and waiting until about midnight for 17 to fly, it was just an—I enjoyed it. It was very spectacular to see. And any emotion that I had about 17, they were long gone.

[Assistant] Was there the emotions, though, of just as an astronaut, you know, as a space explorer, was there emotion of knowing it was the last one? For anyone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] —Space Center. Correct. What were you feelings? Reflecting on—this was a flight you had fought hard, I mean, you had fought really hard to get onto that flight, and—

[User] All those—that emotion’s gone and over with, you know. There’s nothing—you can’t go back and create anything. I just enjoyed being there and taking friends. Took the Meekhams as my guest to watch the launch. It was the first night launch of the Saturn V; and in spite of all the delays and waiting until about midnight for 17 to fly, it was just an—I enjoyed it. It was very spectacular to see. And any emotion that I had about 17, they were long gone.

[Assistant] Was there the emotions, though, of just as an astronaut, you know, as a space explorer, was there emotion of knowing it was the last one? For anyone?

[User] I think there’s a certain amount of regret. I wish they had continued the Program through 20, which they had originally intended to do. They had—but I can’t argue with the decision. The decision was a good one, an appropriate one at the time. The risk-to-reward was going up. The risks were always there the same. The rewards were diminishing. The amount of scientific information and what we learned was minimal. I shouldn’t say “minimal.” But in a sense that it was repetitive and we weren’t gaining much more. We would have if we’d have landed on the back side of the Moon; that would’ve been a totally different story.\n\n But the Program ended. And probably appropriately so, because it allowed us then to look at Skylab. And that allowed us then to close the loop. The Cold War was over in 1975. Lo and behold! we have a joint mission with the Soviet Union. Two cosmonauts and three astronauts; joint operations in orbit. Full circle.

[Assistant] Did you follow that flight closely?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All those—that emotion’s gone and over with, you know. There’s nothing—you can’t go back and create anything. I just enjoyed being there and taking friends. Took the Meekhams as my guest to watch the launch. It was the first night launch of the Saturn V; and in spite of all the delays and waiting until about midnight for 17 to fly, it was just an—I enjoyed it. It was very spectacular to see. And any emotion that I had about 17, they were long gone.

[Assistant] Was there the emotions, though, of just as an astronaut, you know, as a space explorer, was there emotion of knowing it was the last one? For anyone?

[User] I think there’s a certain amount of regret. I wish they had continued the Program through 20, which they had originally intended to do. They had—but I can’t argue with the decision. The decision was a good one, an appropriate one at the time. The risk-to-reward was going up. The risks were always there the same. The rewards were diminishing. The amount of scientific information and what we learned was minimal. I shouldn’t say “minimal.” But in a sense that it was repetitive and we weren’t gaining much more. We would have if we’d have landed on the back side of the Moon; that would’ve been a totally different story.\n\n But the Program ended. And probably appropriately so, because it allowed us then to look at Skylab. And that allowed us then to close the loop. The Cold War was over in 1975. Lo and behold! we have a joint mission with the Soviet Union. Two cosmonauts and three astronauts; joint operations in orbit. Full circle.

[Assistant] Did you follow that flight closely?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you excited that Deke Slayton finally got to fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there’s a certain amount of regret. I wish they had continued the Program through 20, which they had originally intended to do. They had—but I can’t argue with the decision. The decision was a good one, an appropriate one at the time. The risk-to-reward was going up. The risks were always there the same. The rewards were diminishing. The amount of scientific information and what we learned was minimal. I shouldn’t say “minimal.” But in a sense that it was repetitive and we weren’t gaining much more. We would have if we’d have landed on the back side of the Moon; that would’ve been a totally different story.\n\n But the Program ended. And probably appropriately so, because it allowed us then to look at Skylab. And that allowed us then to close the loop. The Cold War was over in 1975. Lo and behold! we have a joint mission with the Soviet Union. Two cosmonauts and three astronauts; joint operations in orbit. Full circle.

[Assistant] Did you follow that flight closely?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you excited that Deke Slayton finally got to fly?

[User] Yes. If any—nobody deserves to fly in this business. But if anybody does, Deke Slayton was the one to have deserved to have flown.

[Assistant] So, there—you know, there’s not, like—because Deke controlled all your fates for so long, you could easily have developed either resentment toward him or what you seem to have developed, which is respect and friendship. I mean, I take it that no—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you excited that Deke Slayton finally got to fly?

[User] Yes. If any—nobody deserves to fly in this business. But if anybody does, Deke Slayton was the one to have deserved to have flown.

[Assistant] So, there—you know, there’s not, like—because Deke controlled all your fates for so long, you could easily have developed either resentment toward him or what you seem to have developed, which is respect and friendship. I mean, I take it that no—

[User] I can’t imagine anybody developing a resentment.

[Assistant] I don’t think anybody has, which is amazing considering he controlled your fates, really.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t imagine anybody developing a resentment.

[Assistant] I don’t think anybody has, which is amazing considering he controlled your fates, really.

[User] But we—that was an accepted—He was the boss. And when it—you know, people—a lot of people don’t understand this. When you’re in the military, you go, “Aye, aye, sir.” And you carry out your orders. That’s the culture. Thank God, it’s the culture!

[Assistant] Were there—

[User] And I just feel that there—people felt that Deke was not—well, I shouldn’t say that. He was not treated improperly. But this—the decision could’ve gone totally the other way about his flying on Mercury. It didn’t, and he went through a lot of trouble and tribulations to get back on flight status, even though they probably would never have allowed him to fly alone. He was not about to, even though he was a Mercury astronaut, to be the commander of that [ASTP] flight. But Deke deserved to fly; and thank God, he had the opportunity to do so!

[Assistant] The—you know, you mentioned that you followed the Apollo-Soyuz. Were you struck at the time at just how far the circle had come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we—that was an accepted—He was the boss. And when it—you know, people—a lot of people don’t understand this. When you’re in the military, you go, “Aye, aye, sir.” And you carry out your orders. That’s the culture. Thank God, it’s the culture!

[Assistant] Were there—

[User] And I just feel that there—people felt that Deke was not—well, I shouldn’t say that. He was not treated improperly. But this—the decision could’ve gone totally the other way about his flying on Mercury. It didn’t, and he went through a lot of trouble and tribulations to get back on flight status, even though they probably would never have allowed him to fly alone. He was not about to, even though he was a Mercury astronaut, to be the commander of that [ASTP] flight. But Deke deserved to fly; and thank God, he had the opportunity to do so!

[Assistant] The—you know, you mentioned that you followed the Apollo-Soyuz. Were you struck at the time at just how far the circle had come?

[User] I think so. I think so. Matter of fact, my command module pilot was a command module pilot on ASTP. Vance [D.] Brand was on my backup crew on 15, and it gave Vance an opportunity. I was glad to see that he had the opportunity to fly as well.

[Assistant] Do you still follow the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I just feel that there—people felt that Deke was not—well, I shouldn’t say that. He was not treated improperly. But this—the decision could’ve gone totally the other way about his flying on Mercury. It didn’t, and he went through a lot of trouble and tribulations to get back on flight status, even though they probably would never have allowed him to fly alone. He was not about to, even though he was a Mercury astronaut, to be the commander of that [ASTP] flight. But Deke deserved to fly; and thank God, he had the opportunity to do so!

[Assistant] The—you know, you mentioned that you followed the Apollo-Soyuz. Were you struck at the time at just how far the circle had come?

[User] I think so. I think so. Matter of fact, my command module pilot was a command module pilot on ASTP. Vance [D.] Brand was on my backup crew on 15, and it gave Vance an opportunity. I was glad to see that he had the opportunity to fly as well.

[Assistant] Do you still follow the space program?

[User] Not to the detail, certainly, but yeah. I know what they’re doing, and what they’re not doing, and what’s going on.

[Assistant] What do you think they’re not doing that they should be doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I think so. Matter of fact, my command module pilot was a command module pilot on ASTP. Vance [D.] Brand was on my backup crew on 15, and it gave Vance an opportunity. I was glad to see that he had the opportunity to fly as well.

[Assistant] Do you still follow the space program?

[User] Not to the detail, certainly, but yeah. I know what they’re doing, and what they’re not doing, and what’s going on.

[Assistant] What do you think they’re not doing that they should be doing?

[User] Well, they’re not doing the things they should be doing because they can’t. The budget’s not there. The leadership’s not there. You know, beyond ISS, and I anticipate some problems along that one as well, but what’s beyond the International Space Station? Who’s out there challenging humankind to go further and return to the Moon? Or go to Mars?\n\n All of these things should be happening. I—the disappointment I have, we haven’t been back to the lunar surface since 1972. That’s a disgrace! And we just don’t—the culture is not the same as it was in the ’60s. It just doesn’t exist. It probably never will be replicated. And we’re just going to have to go along at the pace that we’re going along. And in some senses, I don’t think to point fingers, but the politics and the economics of the situation have probably—and the will of the American people have probably dictated that we are where we are.

[Assistant] When you compare the NASA of today with the NASA of your time, what stands out at you as the greatest contrast, greatest disappointments, greatest improvements? I mean, I don’t know if you know enough about the NASA organization—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s probably a true statement, Catherine. I probably don’t know enough about the NASA of today to make that comparison. The NASA of today is not the NASA of the ’60s. The leadership is not the same. The risk takers are not there. Can you imagine going to the Moon today with one computer? I can’t. And I don’t think anybody here could look at it and think of it in that way.\n\n We were one of two things. Either we were very good or we were very, very lucky in being able to accomplish those missions. But there was a Cold War. There were risk takers. There were people willing to take those risks, willing to make those management decisions and assume those responsibilities for their decisions. We don’t have that today.

[Assistant] Why do you think not? I mean, why—do you think made it possible then? Was it just the race with the Soviets?

[User] I think probably a great deal of it was the Cold War. It was the inspiration that young President John Kennedy gave. You know, he started—had rough times starting out behind, trying to find something to catch up. The Berlin Wall going up in his Presidency. The Cuban Crisis. This country needed a shot in the arm. Think about the 1960s. Vietnam. Riots. Campus unrest situations. Woodstock. I mean, this country was a bloody mess! And it was the one thing that gave it somewhat of a shot in the arm; and it was a totally different time and place in history.

[Assistant] You all were the bright spot.

[User] Well, we hoped that we gave people something to look up to.

[Assistant] Any stories that you think are worth telling that I didn’t know to ask you about? Because I can’t, you know, all the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably a great deal of it was the Cold War. It was the inspiration that young President John Kennedy gave. You know, he started—had rough times starting out behind, trying to find something to catch up. The Berlin Wall going up in his Presidency. The Cuban Crisis. This country needed a shot in the arm. Think about the 1960s. Vietnam. Riots. Campus unrest situations. Woodstock. I mean, this country was a bloody mess! And it was the one thing that gave it somewhat of a shot in the arm; and it was a totally different time and place in history.

[Assistant] You all were the bright spot.

[User] Well, we hoped that we gave people something to look up to.

[Assistant] Any stories that you think are worth telling that I didn’t know to ask you about? Because I can’t, you know, all the—

[User] I’m impressed with the research you’ve done. I think you’ve done pretty well. I probably said more than I should. But I don’t care!

[Assistant] Now, no, no. Any—let me just have you reflect on a couple of key figures from this: Chris Kraft, just your reflect—thoughts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His nickname was “the Teacher.” And he was good.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He was one of those rare individuals. He and Bob Gilruth and Wernher von Braun; and those people came along at a very, very unique time in our history. And their contributions are very significant.

[Assistant] Gene Kranz.

[User] Gung-ho. All the way. A tiger by the tail.

[Assistant] What about some of the NASA Administrators of your time, like Jim Webb and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was one of those rare individuals. He and Bob Gilruth and Wernher von Braun; and those people came along at a very, very unique time in our history. And their contributions are very significant.

[Assistant] Gene Kranz.

[User] Gung-ho. All the way. A tiger by the tail.

[Assistant] What about some of the NASA Administrators of your time, like Jim Webb and—

[User] Jim, we respected. If it hadn’t been for Jim Webb and his acumen in the political arena, this would never have been done. And in particular after the Apollo 1 fire.\n\n Other leadership, I think a lot of respect I have for Dr. [George E.] Mueller, who if he had not made the decision for the all-up testing—don’t test these things; save missiles; put them all together and go for it—saved us a tremendous amount of time with the Saturn V and its development.\n\n There are other people of industry. Lee Evans in Grumman. McDonell’s for the Mercury and Gemini. The—Harrison Storms with North American and with the Apollo command and service module. All these people, and many, many more, just tremendous, great contributors to the—Bob Gilruth was one of my very favorites.

[Assistant] Why? Just because of his leadership and his—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gung-ho. All the way. A tiger by the tail.

[Assistant] What about some of the NASA Administrators of your time, like Jim Webb and—

[User] Jim, we respected. If it hadn’t been for Jim Webb and his acumen in the political arena, this would never have been done. And in particular after the Apollo 1 fire.\n\n Other leadership, I think a lot of respect I have for Dr. [George E.] Mueller, who if he had not made the decision for the all-up testing—don’t test these things; save missiles; put them all together and go for it—saved us a tremendous amount of time with the Saturn V and its development.\n\n There are other people of industry. Lee Evans in Grumman. McDonell’s for the Mercury and Gemini. The—Harrison Storms with North American and with the Apollo command and service module. All these people, and many, many more, just tremendous, great contributors to the—Bob Gilruth was one of my very favorites.

[Assistant] Why? Just because of his leadership and his—

[User] His leadership. You bet. His vision. He and Wernher von Braun were visionaries in this game.

[Assistant] How do you want to be remembered in terms of your NASA career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim, we respected. If it hadn’t been for Jim Webb and his acumen in the political arena, this would never have been done. And in particular after the Apollo 1 fire.\n\n Other leadership, I think a lot of respect I have for Dr. [George E.] Mueller, who if he had not made the decision for the all-up testing—don’t test these things; save missiles; put them all together and go for it—saved us a tremendous amount of time with the Saturn V and its development.\n\n There are other people of industry. Lee Evans in Grumman. McDonell’s for the Mercury and Gemini. The—Harrison Storms with North American and with the Apollo command and service module. All these people, and many, many more, just tremendous, great contributors to the—Bob Gilruth was one of my very favorites.

[Assistant] Why? Just because of his leadership and his—

[User] His leadership. You bet. His vision. He and Wernher von Braun were visionaries in this game.

[Assistant] How do you want to be remembered in terms of your NASA career?

[User] A contributor.

[Assistant] Who would have liked to have gone the last 60 miles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His leadership. You bet. His vision. He and Wernher von Braun were visionaries in this game.

[Assistant] How do you want to be remembered in terms of your NASA career?

[User] A contributor.

[Assistant] Who would have liked to have gone the last 60 miles?

[User] Yes. Yes, indeed!

[Assistant] All right. Well, thank you very much for sharing all your stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A contributor.

[Assistant] Who would have liked to have gone the last 60 miles?

[User] Yes. Yes, indeed!

[Assistant] All right. Well, thank you very much for sharing all your stories.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] We really appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, on the staff at the time—not the family—[was] Dave Powers, who was a good friend of the . . . I mean, from Charlestown. And he was, you know, a sidekick and told jokes. He was not a policy guy, but he was on the staff.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I went back for the dedication, when the building was finally dedicated, to be there and help with . . . I don't know . . . invitations or something. They let me go back. And the Kennedy family was there, so I was there at the dedication of the new building on Columbia Point in Boston Harbor. But no, I never really met them. But, I have to say I was a fan. So, that's alright. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Yeah, I could see being in awe when you walk in there and you're working on some of those papers and you're transcribing interviews and, you know . . . . It's history at your fingertips.

[User] Yeah, because it was recent history. It wasn't 50 years later.

[Assistant] Right. Eight years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went back for the dedication, when the building was finally dedicated, to be there and help with . . . I don't know . . . invitations or something. They let me go back. And the Kennedy family was there, so I was there at the dedication of the new building on Columbia Point in Boston Harbor. But no, I never really met them. But, I have to say I was a fan. So, that's alright. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Yeah, I could see being in awe when you walk in there and you're working on some of those papers and you're transcribing interviews and, you know . . . . It's history at your fingertips.

[User] Yeah, because it was recent history. It wasn't 50 years later.

[Assistant] Right. Eight years.

[User] Even in 1971, it was very recent. And as I said, the Robert Kennedy assassination just added to what they had to handle. How do you handle, especially, the more personal records of assassinated men? You know, it was a trauma for that period of time in our history. But yeah, there is a little bit of . . . star . . . what is it? What is the word—you're caught up in the names and, you know, you're working with the President's records. I mean, how cool is that? I mean, yeah, and there was a lot of that going on with me. I know that I was just like . . . I couldn't believe it. It was all luck. It was not skill. It was luck. And as I said, the mentors that I had . . . . Mentors are so important and, later on in my career, I tried to be at least a little bit of a mentor to other people. But that was how I got into the National Archives. And that's pretty cool.

[Assistant] Okay. Yes, I think so! Yeah. And so when you moved to the DC area, were you then working at AI? [CROSS-TALKING]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. Right, right. Well, I was working with the records in Old Military, but that was a reference job. But, as I think of it now, in the Military Service Branch, I ended up doing a lot more physical work on the records, taking care of them physically, because there was a whole other staff, mostly technicians—again, you know, the technicians, they don't get the credit they deserve. But, I mean, they were the ones who were doing the reference mostly. I remember this was sometime in the 80s. The Archives was still under the ddIGSA, General Services Administration. And GSA said you could apply to get a desk computer. Wow!

[Assistant] [LAUGHS]

[User] [LAUGH] This was old typewriters, paper correspondence, everything. And so Maida and I—and there is an interview with Mayda. I didn't see one of Gerry. She should be included. Maida and I wrote up a proposal to get one of these newfangled computers with a desktop dot matrix printer. And we got it. [LAUGHS] I forget what we did with it. We probably made box lists or something like that. But, you know, that's . . . I'm just showing my age.

[Assistant] Very cool.

[User] That's the Archives. The Archives, you know, [had] old wooden desks that were there from the 30s, and manual typewriters that were there from the 30s, dial telephones—not even push-button telephones. I mean, it became a joke, but that's what we had. So, it was funny.

[Assistant] Technology has changed. [LAUGHS]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [LAUGH] This was old typewriters, paper correspondence, everything. And so Maida and I—and there is an interview with Mayda. I didn't see one of Gerry. She should be included. Maida and I wrote up a proposal to get one of these newfangled computers with a desktop dot matrix printer. And we got it. [LAUGHS] I forget what we did with it. We probably made box lists or something like that. But, you know, that's . . . I'm just showing my age.

[Assistant] Very cool.

[User] That's the Archives. The Archives, you know, [had] old wooden desks that were there from the 30s, and manual typewriters that were there from the 30s, dial telephones—not even push-button telephones. I mean, it became a joke, but that's what we had. So, it was funny.

[Assistant] Technology has changed. [LAUGHS]

[User] [LAUGHS] Yep. Yep. From, you know, oral histories with earphones and reel-to reel- tapes to dot matrix printers, and now, look at you! [LAUGHS] So . . .

[Assistant] Did you notice any differences, in your particular job, when the agency went from being under GSA to becoming independent in 1985?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a huge loss of space.

[Assistant] That's a lot. Right.

[User] And I don't know if you've been to the building, but that's where the theater is now . . . So the renovation happened after that.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] But it was good. And just a brief aside—I think it probably was before records relocation—I was assigned to work on the updates to the National Archives Guide, and Sharon Thibodeau was head of that. You know, archivist extraordinaire. She lives in Colorado. And I don't know if there's an oral history of her, but there should be, because she was a director of different divisions. And Bob Matchette, again, who worked on the logistics, had that kind of mind. But he did administrative history, which people forget. It's kind of a boring thing, but it's so necessary for archivists. You got to know when this agency was established or this office within the agency [was established] or when it was transferred to another agency, you know. He did it all. I mean, we all did, but he was just so good at it. These people were just doing their job.

[Assistant] At what point were you digitizing records? This was after the move or . . . ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[Assistant] . . . be able to access.

[User] But it's just a drop in the bucket. Even though so much has been done, there's so much more to do.

[Assistant] Right. There's so many records out there, and they keep coming. So [CROSS- TALKING].

[User] Yeah. So, I think, in my career, I was always more [in] processing and with the records. I mean, I did some reference, but I liked the hands-on kind of thing, working with the records. Not that it was all, you know, we all had our moments. "Oh my God. I wish I was done with this" or, "This is boring stuff." But, on the whole, we have a respect for what the records are, and you just do it and you make them better. That's what you try to do. It was always frustrating. You go into the stacks and you see so much more that needs to be helped, and you're not going to get to it, you know? You're never going to get it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, just not enough staff, not enough time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it's just a drop in the bucket. Even though so much has been done, there's so much more to do.

[Assistant] Right. There's so many records out there, and they keep coming. So [CROSS- TALKING].

[User] Yeah. So, I think, in my career, I was always more [in] processing and with the records. I mean, I did some reference, but I liked the hands-on kind of thing, working with the records. Not that it was all, you know, we all had our moments. "Oh my God. I wish I was done with this" or, "This is boring stuff." But, on the whole, we have a respect for what the records are, and you just do it and you make them better. That's what you try to do. It was always frustrating. You go into the stacks and you see so much more that needs to be helped, and you're not going to get to it, you know? You're never going to get it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, just not enough staff, not enough time.

[User] No. Not enough space.

[Assistant] Yeah. We do the best that we can. Brenda, do you have just a few more minutes? I think we're just a little bit over our time that I scheduled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So, I think, in my career, I was always more [in] processing and with the records. I mean, I did some reference, but I liked the hands-on kind of thing, working with the records. Not that it was all, you know, we all had our moments. "Oh my God. I wish I was done with this" or, "This is boring stuff." But, on the whole, we have a respect for what the records are, and you just do it and you make them better. That's what you try to do. It was always frustrating. You go into the stacks and you see so much more that needs to be helped, and you're not going to get to it, you know? You're never going to get it.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, just not enough staff, not enough time.

[User] No. Not enough space.

[Assistant] Yeah. We do the best that we can. Brenda, do you have just a few more minutes? I think we're just a little bit over our time that I scheduled.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I just didn't know if you still had a little bit of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Not enough space.

[Assistant] Yeah. We do the best that we can. Brenda, do you have just a few more minutes? I think we're just a little bit over our time that I scheduled.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I just didn't know if you still had a little bit of time.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I'm fine.

[Assistant] Okay. Just wanted to make sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I just didn't know if you still had a little bit of time.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I'm fine.

[Assistant] Okay. Just wanted to make sure.

[User] Sure, if I can ever stop coughing.

[Assistant] I'm glad you've got some water there. . . . I know that you also were an instructor for a while with the Modern Archives Institute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I'm fine.

[Assistant] Okay. Just wanted to make sure.

[User] Sure, if I can ever stop coughing.

[Assistant] I'm glad you've got some water there. . . . I know that you also were an instructor for a while with the Modern Archives Institute?

[User] Institute. Yeah.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, what that was and how you got to be the instructor for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, if I can ever stop coughing.

[Assistant] I'm glad you've got some water there. . . . I know that you also were an instructor for a while with the Modern Archives Institute?

[User] Institute. Yeah.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit, what that was and how you got to be the instructor for that.

[User] [COUGHS]

[Assistant] Just take your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you'd have to find out. But it went on for a long time, and it's a shame, I think. And people look to the Archives. It was held twice a year, and there was usually a waiting list. People would inquire when the next Institute was scheduled: “When will you accept applications?" And there were only—I don't know how many—probably 20 slots, 25 at the most, you know. So . . .

[Assistant] Okay. Small class. Yeah.

[User] Well, I mean it's all about room and . . . . Anyway, I think it's a shame. Again, I don't think of myself as a teacher. I'm not. And I don't think I was the best. I could have done better. But it was always nice. [Some of the topics were:] How do you move records? And some of them were faced with that problem of having to move records out of where they were to another place and, you know, you could give them pointers. You could give them names of, "You might want to talk with so and so" and all that. Where do you get supplies? What are access issues? [CROSS-TALKING] So I don't know what the profession is doing now. I think the SAA still exists.

[Assistant] Hmm. Yeah.

[User] I think the Oral History Association still exists, but I'm not sure. It's still all valid. It's still all valuable. Yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean it's all about room and . . . . Anyway, I think it's a shame. Again, I don't think of myself as a teacher. I'm not. And I don't think I was the best. I could have done better. But it was always nice. [Some of the topics were:] How do you move records? And some of them were faced with that problem of having to move records out of where they were to another place and, you know, you could give them pointers. You could give them names of, "You might want to talk with so and so" and all that. Where do you get supplies? What are access issues? [CROSS-TALKING] So I don't know what the profession is doing now. I think the SAA still exists.

[Assistant] Hmm. Yeah.

[User] I think the Oral History Association still exists, but I'm not sure. It's still all valid. It's still all valuable. Yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Yeah.

[User] And I was just part of this. I wasn't running any of these, all my positions. I'm just a worker, you know. I wasn't responsible for a lot of the planning or anything. I just did the work. But it ended up being pretty rewarding. And I always, when I retired or [was] in the Institute, I've always said I felt very privileged to have had the experiences that I had with all the complaints, with all the "Huh," with all the drudgery of some of it. But on the whole, I was very lucky.

[Assistant] So when did you retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Forty-two years in the National Archives. So, you know.

[Assistant] Wow!

[User] Time flies. From 1971 . . . I think it was . . . and I'm like, "Oh, it was only about six years ago." No, I think it's been longer than that!!

[Assistant] [LAUGHS]

[User] I was 65, and I'm about to turn 75 so . . .

[Assistant] Oh my gosh! I would never have guessed. Wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Time flies. From 1971 . . . I think it was . . . and I'm like, "Oh, it was only about six years ago." No, I think it's been longer than that!!

[Assistant] [LAUGHS]

[User] I was 65, and I'm about to turn 75 so . . .

[Assistant] Oh my gosh! I would never have guessed. Wow.

[User] Forty-two years. And that's why your generation or my son's generation, they don't . . . "You stayed in one place the whole time? That sounds awful."

[Assistant] A lot of them do. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, starting out, you don't know. I worked for the same agency, but I think I had a lot of different experiences.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I met my husband there. So that's why I'm still in DC, and I'm not back up in Boston.

[Assistant] Okay. Mhm.

[User] But anyway . . .

[Assistant] Did they throw you a party or anything when you left? Did they do anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I met my husband there. So that's why I'm still in DC, and I'm not back up in Boston.

[Assistant] Okay. Mhm.

[User] But anyway . . .

[Assistant] Did they throw you a party or anything when you left? Did they do anything?

[User] I didn't want to do anything. Not [CROSS-TALKING]. And I felt like it was time. David had already retired. And I felt like I was turning into somebody I didn't want to be. You know, I was starting to sound like one of these old people that just, you know, "Well, years ago we did it this way or that way or . . . ." I think that I didn't want to become somebody like that. And there's always battles. There's always, "We gotta move this. We're going to regionalize this, so we're going to do this, that and the other thing." And "Why? Why do you have to do that? Don't you know how valuable these things are?" You know, I was starting to become that, and I didn't want to. But with close staff, we just went—I didn't want a big party. I'm not a public person, you know?

[Assistant] Okay. I hear that a lot, just wanting to kind of go out quietly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But anyway . . .

[Assistant] Did they throw you a party or anything when you left? Did they do anything?

[User] I didn't want to do anything. Not [CROSS-TALKING]. And I felt like it was time. David had already retired. And I felt like I was turning into somebody I didn't want to be. You know, I was starting to sound like one of these old people that just, you know, "Well, years ago we did it this way or that way or . . . ." I think that I didn't want to become somebody like that. And there's always battles. There's always, "We gotta move this. We're going to regionalize this, so we're going to do this, that and the other thing." And "Why? Why do you have to do that? Don't you know how valuable these things are?" You know, I was starting to become that, and I didn't want to. But with close staff, we just went—I didn't want a big party. I'm not a public person, you know?

[Assistant] Okay. I hear that a lot, just wanting to kind of go out quietly.

[User] The archival profession is populated by a bunch of introverts, you know, and I know I'm one. I didn't want a big party, so just a group of us went—the Archives Building is situated in downtown DC on Pennsylvania Avenue, and the public entrance is on Constitution Avenue. On the other side of that is the Sculpture Garden or the National Gallery of Art. And they have a nice pavilion, and we just went out there and had–it was just a May day, and it was just beautiful. That's all I wanted. I didn't want a big public thing. So yeah, it was hard. It was sad. But, it happens to all of us. [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Right. Right. What do you think is your proudest accomplishment from your time at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, I'd like to think that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Whether I did [the] work—I'm sure I have these, especially in Records Relocation—we had to put the sticky labels on notes and boxes or something and, you know, like a temporary series. I'm sure [the staff are] going in, and they're finding all of this stuff from Brenda about, "You know, who is this person?" like we've all done. We've all found notes from previous generations of archivists. And there's nobody that knows me now, except Trevor. [LAUGHS] There's some people at AI that know me, but it's your generation now so . . . .

[Assistant] [LAUGHS]

[User] There are good foundations there, but you know with what the Archives is dealing with now, with electronic records and everything else, I couldn't have worked in that. I couldn't work in electronic records. I liked the paper. I was fortunate, you know. So . . . .

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to bring up about your time at the Archives that I haven't already asked about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It can't just be management. It can't be.

[Assistant] Mhm. Yeah.

[User] But those are different stories. But yeah.

[Assistant] Well, we got where we are based on, you know, built on the people that came before us. So, it wasn't all management. Right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, yeah. Include the worker bees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But those are different stories. But yeah.

[Assistant] Well, we got where we are based on, you know, built on the people that came before us. So, it wasn't all management. Right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, yeah. Include the worker bees.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the things with anything. I mean, if you have a job, whether it's moving the records or holdings maintenance, you're working with others doing that. You're giving them assignments to box and rehouse, and you're prodding them. My supervisor is saying, "Why isn't that done? It's taken three years." And I’m saying, "Well, you know. They're doing it. It'll get done!" So . . . .

[Assistant] Yeah, we'll definitely reach out to others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So, yeah. Include the worker bees.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the things with anything. I mean, if you have a job, whether it's moving the records or holdings maintenance, you're working with others doing that. You're giving them assignments to box and rehouse, and you're prodding them. My supervisor is saying, "Why isn't that done? It's taken three years." And I’m saying, "Well, you know. They're doing it. It'll get done!" So . . . .

[Assistant] Yeah, we'll definitely reach out to others.

[User] You're never working alone. You're never working alone.

[Assistant] Mhm. Right. It's all teamwork. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the things with anything. I mean, if you have a job, whether it's moving the records or holdings maintenance, you're working with others doing that. You're giving them assignments to box and rehouse, and you're prodding them. My supervisor is saying, "Why isn't that done? It's taken three years." And I’m saying, "Well, you know. They're doing it. It'll get done!" So . . . .

[Assistant] Yeah, we'll definitely reach out to others.

[User] You're never working alone. You're never working alone.

[Assistant] Mhm. Right. It's all teamwork. Yeah.

[User] And so, that's what I would say.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, thank you so much for all of this information, all of your experiences. You really have done a lot of different things and have been at the agency when there's been a lot of change. So, yeah. You've been there a long time!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, that's what I would say.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, thank you so much for all of this information, all of your experiences. You really have done a lot of different things and have been at the agency when there's been a lot of change. So, yeah. You've been there a long time!

[User] But like I said, the Archives is always in the news, some good and some bad.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] For an agency that most people don't think of, it's amazing how much of what is in the news touches the Archives, I think.

[Assistant] Mhm. Yeah, very much so. Okay, well hey, I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording now. Can you hang on for just one moment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that point we still weren’t too far in the limelight, so I think they weren’t all that worried about us. They had much bigger problems to worry about.

[Assistant] Were you given the authority, based on your position, where you could make some of those decisions to allow them to have leeway one way or the other? Or was part of your responsibility to come back and get that authority from here within your program?

[User] Alan [J. Lindenmoyer, Commercial Crew and Cargo Program Manager] had the real authority, although I think he needed to still check with his boss and with the rest of the NASA community, legal and other folks, to make sure it was okay. I’d make recommendations based on whether they had met the technical content of what the milestone was, did I think they were making technical progress. I was basically making recommendations on where we should go with things. I didn’t have the ultimate decision making authority, Alan had the final sign off on those things.

[Assistant] We’re learning more about how the partnerships work and how traditional protocol was set aside on some things, but it sounds like on this it still went up the ladder.

[User] In a lot of cases we still followed a lot of the protocols that were done in the past. Even the proposal and procurement process, although it was streamlined. It was done a lot more efficiently than a normal procurement. They followed a lot of the same procedures and protocols and did a lot of the things that you’d do in a normal FAR-based procurement, even though it was a Space Act Agreement and they didn’t necessarily need to follow all those rules. Just to make it clean and not show even an inkling of favoritism or being unfair in the selection process. They tried to follow the typical process in a lot of respects so that it, by its nature, made sure we were fair and equitable.

[Assistant] As the process began for the development phases, how was the safety community within NASA involved? Or even the safety folks from the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. Can you share with us on how they were brought in, or not brought in, and how they impacted the vehicles’ development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did some of it. Originally our office had a position for that, but Station really wanted to be the primary point of contact for most of that, so I just worked with their folks. A lot of those processes were standing processes in place, so once I got the SpaceX folks to learn how to play into them I didn’t need to be directly involved. There were too many different things going on all at the same time for one person to be a bottleneck of information. There’s no way I could have been the liaison in the middle of all that, as well as making sure the development was going right, and on schedule, and we were getting payments to them.

[Assistant] It’s another nontraditional way of doing business to allow the flow and not have to go through one central point

[User] To actually trust people to know what they’re doing. They always knew they could call me if something didn’t seem right and they were getting into a problem that they couldn’t get out of. Then I could talk to both the NASA side, whoever was raising the concern, and understand, mediate our way through it. It wasn’t all that frequent, quite frankly. Once in a while we’d have to do that.

[Assistant] If I understand correctly, going to the Station was not mandated. That was something that SpaceX could choose to do, is that correct?

[User] I think that was the way it was originally written, although the whole point was to be able to take cargo to the Space Station, so not going to the Space Station—I guess you could not do that, but I don’t know what the point would be.

[Assistant] So far as you understood, that was always their intent, to bring cargo to the Station, from the beginning of their development phase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They’d been hinting at it for a while I think. I wasn’t sure it was a great idea at first, seemed like the benefits to NASA weren’t all that good when they first proposed it. They did caveat it, always saying that if for some reason they were unsuccessful they would go fly another mission and try again. We were still getting what the original value was out of the original agreement. We’d still, if need be, get three flights. Turned out this got us there a little bit faster than if we had had to really need three flights.\n\n Like I said, we did a lot of work with them, both the Station folks and some of our CATS support folks, to help them see where some big integrated system tests might be useful. We found some problems that delayed the flight by a little bit. Some of those big system tests found real problems that would have been a mission failure if we didn’t catch them on the ground.

[Assistant] I guess that’s the success of melding the new with the old.

[User] Yes, sometimes the old guys know what they’re talking about.

[Assistant] Combining all these efforts, there was a lot on the line when they launched that flight.

[User] Yes. I think there were a lot of hidden agendas as well. There was a lot of questioning, “Does this whole COTS thing work?” There was a lot of politics in the political world thinking is this the smart thing to do, should we really be messing with COTS and this whole commercialization, or should we be doing it the more traditional way.

[Assistant] You’re no longer on the back burner now. You were in the forefront, people were watching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we ended up briefing both here at the Center and at Headquarters. We managed to keep it fairly streamlined and not have to brief a lot of different organizations and panels. We managed to get them all pulled together. Mark helped quite a bit influencing, based on some of the reviews that had typically gone on for Shuttles, and combining them together with briefings to the Associate Administrator. Making sure that all the parties were in the same room at the same time, we didn’t have to do it multiple times. That was really helpful.

[Assistant] That’s helpful, yes. Did you ever feel like you didn’t have the support of upper management to continue on the journey that had begun?

[User] No, I didn’t necessarily have that feeling during the majority of the development phase. I had one manager at one point that went on vacation and gave me some of the wisest words I have gotten in my career. I asked him, “So what’s my authority while you’re gone?” His response was, “Proceed until apprehended.” And I’ve had people tell me over the years, “Ask for forgiveness and not permission.” That is the way you really get things done.

[Assistant] At least you had a little more flexibility in this environment than you would have before.

[User] I was happy not to get too much help. They gave us the authority to try and make the right decisions. Some of the upper management are really really smart and have a lot of experience. They were able to help us, point out things that we should look for based on their experience. I never found our direct line management to be a burden, they were really helpful. It was just really good, it’s been a pleasure working with them.

[Assistant] It’s always good to know that you’ve got someone taking care of that side. The days leading up to that last launch, were you constantly with the SpaceX folks as part of their whole process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My degree is actually in electrical engineering, and I had grown up associated with the electrical power industry. My dad worked in the power industry, and I worked all my summers in powerplants. It just kind of was what I was expected to do. Then I got out. My degree is in engineering, but any expertise I have is really in operations more than—I mean, I couldn't design an electrical circuit anymore, but it was an avenue to get into operations, which is what I really liked.

[Assistant] And were you able to do that when you were there?

[User] Once I got out of the Huntsville area and got here. When I came here, I went to work in the flight control division for [Eugene F.] Gene Kranz and got my first set of headphones and my first console to sit at, and I've stayed there for quite a while and loved every minute of it.

[Assistant] While you were in Alabama, Wernher von Braun was there with the scientists. Were you aware of what they were doing?

[User] Oh, yes. Sure. That was about the time of John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight. I got there just a little bit before John Glenn's flight. So we knew what they were doing. I worked on several of the Army's rocket systems, surface-to-surface programs. So we knew about engines and reaction control systems and reentry bodies and all that kind of stuff, and we did all that. We just didn't have a crew on them.

[Assistant] Where were you when you learned about Sputnik, and did that have any influence on—or even to think about later as you entered the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once I got out of the Huntsville area and got here. When I came here, I went to work in the flight control division for [Eugene F.] Gene Kranz and got my first set of headphones and my first console to sit at, and I've stayed there for quite a while and loved every minute of it.

[Assistant] While you were in Alabama, Wernher von Braun was there with the scientists. Were you aware of what they were doing?

[User] Oh, yes. Sure. That was about the time of John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight. I got there just a little bit before John Glenn's flight. So we knew what they were doing. I worked on several of the Army's rocket systems, surface-to-surface programs. So we knew about engines and reaction control systems and reentry bodies and all that kind of stuff, and we did all that. We just didn't have a crew on them.

[Assistant] Where were you when you learned about Sputnik, and did that have any influence on—or even to think about later as you entered the space program?

[User] I was in Alabama then, but, no, that was above my pay grade. I mean, we were doing what we were doing, and we didn't change based on that, from my point of view.

[Assistant] You mentioned your friend that was working in the Houston area and one of the reasons that you came this way. Was he also working in the flight training area or the flight controller area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Sure. That was about the time of John [H.] Glenn's [Jr.] flight. I got there just a little bit before John Glenn's flight. So we knew what they were doing. I worked on several of the Army's rocket systems, surface-to-surface programs. So we knew about engines and reaction control systems and reentry bodies and all that kind of stuff, and we did all that. We just didn't have a crew on them.

[Assistant] Where were you when you learned about Sputnik, and did that have any influence on—or even to think about later as you entered the space program?

[User] I was in Alabama then, but, no, that was above my pay grade. I mean, we were doing what we were doing, and we didn't change based on that, from my point of view.

[Assistant] You mentioned your friend that was working in the Houston area and one of the reasons that you came this way. Was he also working in the flight training area or the flight controller area?

[User] He was in recovery operations, naval recovery operations division.

[Assistant] So you had somewhat in common, not something totally different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in Alabama then, but, no, that was above my pay grade. I mean, we were doing what we were doing, and we didn't change based on that, from my point of view.

[Assistant] You mentioned your friend that was working in the Houston area and one of the reasons that you came this way. Was he also working in the flight training area or the flight controller area?

[User] He was in recovery operations, naval recovery operations division.

[Assistant] So you had somewhat in common, not something totally different.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about those first days when you came to Houston and how you got that headset and some of the first things that you did starting to work for NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I pretty well missed the sixties. I mean, I would see it on the news or something, but the hippie generation, I mean, I know a lot of music from the fifties, but you play tunes from the sixties and I don't recognize most of them. I don't recognize most of the movies or the bands or the popular events. I mean, what went on in Vietnam I knew about and some of the stuff that went on on college campuses. I know H. Rap Brown and some of those major events, but kind of the general cultural thing that went on in the sixties, I pretty well missed it, certainly the last half of the sixties.

[Assistant] And I guess your family life was a little contained to the few hours that you had off as well?

[User] Yes. For a number of people, that was a pretty major strain on the families. Have you talked to Kranz? He used to do these family pep talks. He'd get the auditorium over there, and you had to bring your wife in and you had to bring the kids, and then Gene would get up there and talk about the program and the sacrifices that were being made and how they were all part of the team and the patriotic thing. I mean, you know how Gene is. All these wives were sitting there with this glassy look on their face, and 90 percent of them walked out and said, "What the hell is he talking about?" [Laughter] But he felt he had to do them, you know.

[Assistant] Well, I'm glad you shared that with us. No, he didn't mention that. [Laughter]

[User] But they were classic Kranz, [General] Patton's speech up there. I mean, you'd see the flag back there, and you could see Gene in his little shiny helmet. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Sometimes, as a sim sup, did you have to talk with your folks to kind of work them through a little bit as some of the days got long and kind of give them pep talks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess, uh, the travel bug somehow infected me when I was in college, and I guess I came from a sort of provincial New York background, if you can describe it that way.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
But I had a fraternity brother who had been to Morocco, and he told me about his adventures. And that sort of piqued my curiosity. And then when I went to graduate school at Georgetown, I had a roommate who had gone abroad to Egypt with a group called the Experiment in International Living, and he would wax eloquent about his experiences in Egypt. So that kind of reinforced my interest. So I actually then applied to participate in the Experiment in International Living. And so I went there for the summer of 1965. And the way that program works is you spend one month living with a family and then all the Americans in the group, and we were about 10 to 12, we were all paired with Moroccan families.

And then we would spend the second month traveling around the country with our Moroccan brothers and sisters. So actually, to this day, we are still close with the family. So now how did I actually get interested in the Peace Corps? I guess everybody was talking about the Peace Corps, and it just seemed like a wonderful thing to do.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I just kind of kind of felt a calling to go. So.

[Assistant] And what were you doing about the time that you joined Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But I had a fraternity brother who had been to Morocco, and he told me about his adventures. And that sort of piqued my curiosity. And then when I went to graduate school at Georgetown, I had a roommate who had gone abroad to Egypt with a group called the Experiment in International Living, and he would wax eloquent about his experiences in Egypt. So that kind of reinforced my interest. So I actually then applied to participate in the Experiment in International Living. And so I went there for the summer of 1965. And the way that program works is you spend one month living with a family and then all the Americans in the group, and we were about 10 to 12, we were all paired with Moroccan families.

And then we would spend the second month traveling around the country with our Moroccan brothers and sisters. So actually, to this day, we are still close with the family. So now how did I actually get interested in the Peace Corps? I guess everybody was talking about the Peace Corps, and it just seemed like a wonderful thing to do.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I just kind of kind of felt a calling to go. So.

[Assistant] And what were you doing about the time that you joined Peace Corps?

[User] I was teaching high school. I started teaching high school in '65, and I taught at a boys Catholic high school for two years. And then the next two years I went to the public schools and I went to Midwood High School in Brooklyn, where I met my wonderful wife who was on the faculty there. So I guess we both had the same inclinations, not only to get married but also to do something adventurous. So we got married in February of '69, and we joined the Peace Corps shortly thereafter and went abroad in, I guess it was June of '69.

[Assistant] What was the application process like then? It sounds like it wasn't very long between application and acceptance and training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I just kind of kind of felt a calling to go. So.

[Assistant] And what were you doing about the time that you joined Peace Corps?

[User] I was teaching high school. I started teaching high school in '65, and I taught at a boys Catholic high school for two years. And then the next two years I went to the public schools and I went to Midwood High School in Brooklyn, where I met my wonderful wife who was on the faculty there. So I guess we both had the same inclinations, not only to get married but also to do something adventurous. So we got married in February of '69, and we joined the Peace Corps shortly thereafter and went abroad in, I guess it was June of '69.

[Assistant] What was the application process like then? It sounds like it wasn't very long between application and acceptance and training.

[User] Well, I don't remember the exact sequence, but I know I had applied earlier. And I had gotten assigned to go to Colombia and it involved riding horses in the boondocks of Colombia. And that did not appeal to me.

[Assistant] A New York boy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was teaching high school. I started teaching high school in '65, and I taught at a boys Catholic high school for two years. And then the next two years I went to the public schools and I went to Midwood High School in Brooklyn, where I met my wonderful wife who was on the faculty there. So I guess we both had the same inclinations, not only to get married but also to do something adventurous. So we got married in February of '69, and we joined the Peace Corps shortly thereafter and went abroad in, I guess it was June of '69.

[Assistant] What was the application process like then? It sounds like it wasn't very long between application and acceptance and training.

[User] Well, I don't remember the exact sequence, but I know I had applied earlier. And I had gotten assigned to go to Colombia and it involved riding horses in the boondocks of Colombia. And that did not appeal to me.

[Assistant] A New York boy.

[User] It was a bit, a bit much. So after Gloria and I got married, we both, I guess, had a preference for the Middle East. But the initial assignment was to Korea. And so there again, we, I don't want to say reject, but we asked if there was the possibility of going to the Middle East. And then when they said Iran, we jumped at the opportunity.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you guys got married, and a couple of months later, you entered training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't remember the exact sequence, but I know I had applied earlier. And I had gotten assigned to go to Colombia and it involved riding horses in the boondocks of Colombia. And that did not appeal to me.

[Assistant] A New York boy.

[User] It was a bit, a bit much. So after Gloria and I got married, we both, I guess, had a preference for the Middle East. But the initial assignment was to Korea. And so there again, we, I don't want to say reject, but we asked if there was the possibility of going to the Middle East. And then when they said Iran, we jumped at the opportunity.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you guys got married, and a couple of months later, you entered training.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was training like for you? Where did you do it? What was it like? What was it like as a married couple?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was training like for you? Where did you do it? What was it like? What was it like as a married couple?

[User] I would say because we were in a married couples group, we certainly didn't feel out of place in any way. I mean, there were some single folks training with us, but I would say most of the people in the group were married couples. We were in an idyllic environment in Brattleboro, Vermont. It was so beautiful. And ironically, we were being trained at the headquarters of the Experiment in International Living, which had a contract with the Peace Corps to do Peace Corps training. So I was returning to the Experiment in a different way. So we, you know, we had a lot of language training, which I enjoyed immensely. Um. They did some pretty heavy-handed psychological stuff. You know, in those days, T groups were very popular.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I didn't really like that very much. You know, you were supposed to kind of bare your inner soul and stuff like that. So some of those sessions were a little bit annoying, I guess I would say. But apart from that, I mean, we made, you know, we liked the people in our group. We liked the teachers. In fact, we're still friends with one of the teachers. So I would say it was a positive experience.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And then from Brattleboro, you went to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say because we were in a married couples group, we certainly didn't feel out of place in any way. I mean, there were some single folks training with us, but I would say most of the people in the group were married couples. We were in an idyllic environment in Brattleboro, Vermont. It was so beautiful. And ironically, we were being trained at the headquarters of the Experiment in International Living, which had a contract with the Peace Corps to do Peace Corps training. So I was returning to the Experiment in a different way. So we, you know, we had a lot of language training, which I enjoyed immensely. Um. They did some pretty heavy-handed psychological stuff. You know, in those days, T groups were very popular.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I didn't really like that very much. You know, you were supposed to kind of bare your inner soul and stuff like that. So some of those sessions were a little bit annoying, I guess I would say. But apart from that, I mean, we made, you know, we liked the people in our group. We liked the teachers. In fact, we're still friends with one of the teachers. So I would say it was a positive experience.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And then from Brattleboro, you went to?

[User] So we went home briefly and then maybe we had a week or so to prepare to leave. And then we went to Philadelphia and left from Philadelphia. Everybody reassembled in Philadelphia for departure.

[Assistant] How did you decide what to take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we went home briefly and then maybe we had a week or so to prepare to leave. And then we went to Philadelphia and left from Philadelphia. Everybody reassembled in Philadelphia for departure.

[Assistant] How did you decide what to take?

[User] I don't know if I really remember the details. There was one item that was pretty crucial, and that was our shortwave radio.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And that was kind of our lifeline to the outside world where we were. In particular, we couldn't get Voice of America, but we did get BBC. And every night we would listen to the English language service of BBC. Um. But apart from that, I do not remember the details. I don't remember it to be a big deal. I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] What was it like landing in Iran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if I really remember the details. There was one item that was pretty crucial, and that was our shortwave radio.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And that was kind of our lifeline to the outside world where we were. In particular, we couldn't get Voice of America, but we did get BBC. And every night we would listen to the English language service of BBC. Um. But apart from that, I do not remember the details. I don't remember it to be a big deal. I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] What was it like landing in Iran?

[User]
Well, we, we had to go through Paris, I believe, and then Rome. And then Beirut and then finally Tehran. We arrived in Tehran at night. And the most vivid experience that first morning. They put us up in a hotel on one of the main squares in central Tehran. And so I guess we might have gotten in about midnight. And so after waking up in the morning, we looked out the window and we said, where are we? It looks like we're in a nunnery here. All of these nuns roaming around the street.

It just took a while for the reality of veiled women to actually set, you know, set in. You know, we just didn't expect that everyone would be veiled and they would be veiled in black. And, you know, I, I went to eight years of grammar school with nuns. That was my experience with women in black. But Gloria had the exact same reaction. Where are we here? It just seems like we're in a, you know, some sort of Catholic encampment.

[Assistant] But you didn't stay long in Iran, in Tehran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was kind of our lifeline to the outside world where we were. In particular, we couldn't get Voice of America, but we did get BBC. And every night we would listen to the English language service of BBC. Um. But apart from that, I do not remember the details. I don't remember it to be a big deal. I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] What was it like landing in Iran?

[User]
Well, we, we had to go through Paris, I believe, and then Rome. And then Beirut and then finally Tehran. We arrived in Tehran at night. And the most vivid experience that first morning. They put us up in a hotel on one of the main squares in central Tehran. And so I guess we might have gotten in about midnight. And so after waking up in the morning, we looked out the window and we said, where are we? It looks like we're in a nunnery here. All of these nuns roaming around the street.

It just took a while for the reality of veiled women to actually set, you know, set in. You know, we just didn't expect that everyone would be veiled and they would be veiled in black. And, you know, I, I went to eight years of grammar school with nuns. That was my experience with women in black. But Gloria had the exact same reaction. Where are we here? It just seems like we're in a, you know, some sort of Catholic encampment.

[Assistant] But you didn't stay long in Iran, in Tehran?

[User] No, we didn't. They took us to this agricultural school on the outskirts of Iran and, uh, we went there for, I guess, initial in-country training. I'm guessing that we were there, I don't know, it was about a week, two weeks. I'm not sure exactly how long you were there.

[Assistant] And you stayed in the dorms at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn't. They took us to this agricultural school on the outskirts of Iran and, uh, we went there for, I guess, initial in-country training. I'm guessing that we were there, I don't know, it was about a week, two weeks. I'm not sure exactly how long you were there.

[Assistant] And you stayed in the dorms at that time?

[User] It was like, yes, we stayed in dorms. One thing that was, created a lasting impression for me was the bats that encircled this place. I mean, if you went out in the evening to go for a stroll, the bats would like be dive bombing on your head.

[Assistant] Oh, ow.

[User] It's harmless but, you know, a little disconcerting.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you feel like your training was good training? I'm assuming you had Farsi there and probably some, um, Teaching English as a Second Language training. How did you, what did you think about the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's called the aural-oral method of teaching language.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I'm not sure that method was kind of well suited to Iranian students who, at that time and maybe still to this day, you know, they, they learn by rote memory.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And this is kind of challenging you to figure things out on your own. You know, they weren't actually prepared to do that, so it might have been better, but that was all the vogue in those days. So I can't fault the Peace Corps for teaching that methodology because that was.

[Assistant] The methodology of the day. Yeah. Did you make friends with the other married couples? Did you guys hang out and talk a lot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, yeah. I would say we were quite friendly with, uh, especially couples that came from the same background as we did, so that there was one other couple from New York City that we were close with. Another couple from San Francisco. And so. But, you know, of course you're scattered around the country. You don't have all that many opportunities to interact.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] The nearest volunteers among the couples. Well, no, I take that, I'm sorry. I was going to say there was a couple close to us. Now by close I'm saying 3 hours away. That was close. But we didn't interact with them very much because I believe they came from sort of a rural Midwestern background.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But there was another couple that were maybe 8 hours away and we would go to their site and they would come to us and we seemed to have more in common with them. There was another single volunteer who lived in the next town over, which would be an hour and a half ride, and we got to see him every so often. He would come to visit us.

[Assistant] And were all these on busses? Is that how you traveled back and forth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The nearest volunteers among the couples. Well, no, I take that, I'm sorry. I was going to say there was a couple close to us. Now by close I'm saying 3 hours away. That was close. But we didn't interact with them very much because I believe they came from sort of a rural Midwestern background.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But there was another couple that were maybe 8 hours away and we would go to their site and they would come to us and we seemed to have more in common with them. There was another single volunteer who lived in the next town over, which would be an hour and a half ride, and we got to see him every so often. He would come to visit us.

[Assistant] And were all these on busses? Is that how you traveled back and forth?

[User] Always by bus.

[Assistant] Yeah. You didn't have any scooters or bikes or anything that you used in country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they brought the bikes for us. The people that we would go with would bring the bikes. Because we didn't have our own bikes and that was a big deal. Not so much for me, but for Gloria, because I don't think there was any other woman in town who ever went on a bicycle in the town. Of course, it would be unheard of today, but, well, maybe not so. Maybe not so much. You probably do find women wearing hijab who go out on a bicycle now in modern Tehran. But in those days it was rare, if not never. You'd never see something like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And of course, Gloria would always dress modestly when we were on one of these bike excursions. But we did take bike rides outside of town, which was a favorite thing that people would do. They would go outside and they would. The way Iran is, it's, the whole society is walled in.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So your house would generally have a wall around it for privacy. And if you owned land outside of town, that land which would have a water source inside, would also be enclosed in a wall. And so if you took your family to that land for a picnic, the woman would be able to take off their veils and enjoy themselves in this parcel of land that was rural. They were growing things, whatever they were growing, and there was always a water source. And people would put their rugs down next to the stream and that's where they would have their picnics. So we did that quite often.

[Assistant] Now, did you go with an Iranian couple then? Were they the ones that brought the bikes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So your house would generally have a wall around it for privacy. And if you owned land outside of town, that land which would have a water source inside, would also be enclosed in a wall. And so if you took your family to that land for a picnic, the woman would be able to take off their veils and enjoy themselves in this parcel of land that was rural. They were growing things, whatever they were growing, and there was always a water source. And people would put their rugs down next to the stream and that's where they would have their picnics. So we did that quite often.

[Assistant] Now, did you go with an Iranian couple then? Were they the ones that brought the bikes?

[User] Either our neighbors, we often went with our neighbors who lived down the kucheh, the alleyway. Or I would go with my students. Now, by my students I'm talking about not my students in the, in the boys high school, but students who wanted to really perfect their English and would come to me for private lessons. So anyone who wanted to really have an intensive English language learning experience could enroll in this class in my house.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So I would say I had about ten students. I had high school students for one group and adults for another, and these people would come to my house for lessons. So it was those people in those private classes that would arrange these little excursions into the countryside.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you got to go inside some of the walled garden areas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Either our neighbors, we often went with our neighbors who lived down the kucheh, the alleyway. Or I would go with my students. Now, by my students I'm talking about not my students in the, in the boys high school, but students who wanted to really perfect their English and would come to me for private lessons. So anyone who wanted to really have an intensive English language learning experience could enroll in this class in my house.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So I would say I had about ten students. I had high school students for one group and adults for another, and these people would come to my house for lessons. So it was those people in those private classes that would arrange these little excursions into the countryside.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you got to go inside some of the walled garden areas?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Out there, some of that growing areas. Yeah. Nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I would say I had about ten students. I had high school students for one group and adults for another, and these people would come to my house for lessons. So it was those people in those private classes that would arrange these little excursions into the countryside.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you got to go inside some of the walled garden areas?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Out there, some of that growing areas. Yeah. Nice.

[User] Nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did, how did your site get chosen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] How did, how did your site get chosen?

[User] I believe we were the second volunteers who were assigned to Fassa [also spelled Fasa]. There was a single volunteer who was there before us. Why was Fassa chosen as a Peace Corps site? I have no idea. I don't know. I mean, it is, it was at the time a rather large town. The population was 20,000.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And, um, you know, like I guess it was there were no native English speakers in that town. So I guess it was considered ideal to have us as a resource in this particular town. But nobody ever explained to me how Fassa got on the list of Peace Corps sites, and I can't exactly answer the question.

[Assistant] What was your integration into Fassa like? What were some of the challenges? What, what surprised you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, you know, like I guess it was there were no native English speakers in that town. So I guess it was considered ideal to have us as a resource in this particular town. But nobody ever explained to me how Fassa got on the list of Peace Corps sites, and I can't exactly answer the question.

[Assistant] What was your integration into Fassa like? What were some of the challenges? What, what surprised you?

[User] It was rough, I would say, the first few months. We, when we first arrived, we stayed in a local hotel, which was, as I remember it, a rather dingy place. And you had absolutely no privacy. So you were in a room and there were windows all around and other people staying there. So it was a little really seedy place.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Somehow we got transferred to the local military club. And so I don't think we spent more than one night in that hotel and we were moved to this. It was a local army base in town, very small, but there was a club facility that had accommodations for overnight guests. And so we stayed there.

[Assistant] And who moved you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then, you know, with every traditional Iranian home, the kitchen and the bathroom is separated from the living quarters. So there was another structure behind the garden with the kitchen and the shower and the bathroom. So it was, it was a very nice place, fairly new construction. It had a hot water heater.

[Assistant] Luxury.

[User] Yeah, but of course we had no refrigerator. And I mean, there were some creature comforts that we didn't have.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But the house itself was spacious. More than enough room for us.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What did you cook on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but of course we had no refrigerator. And I mean, there were some creature comforts that we didn't have.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But the house itself was spacious. More than enough room for us.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What did you cook on?

[User] Well, we had this kitchen in the back and there was a sink in the kitchen, and we had this, the two burners, and you had to bring in, what are those cylinders called?

[Assistant] Oh, like propane cylinders?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the house itself was spacious. More than enough room for us.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What did you cook on?

[User] Well, we had this kitchen in the back and there was a sink in the kitchen, and we had this, the two burners, and you had to bring in, what are those cylinders called?

[Assistant] Oh, like propane cylinders?

[User] Propane cylinders. And, you know, we would.

[Assistant] Kind of like a camp stove.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had this kitchen in the back and there was a sink in the kitchen, and we had this, the two burners, and you had to bring in, what are those cylinders called?

[Assistant] Oh, like propane cylinders?

[User] Propane cylinders. And, you know, we would.

[Assistant] Kind of like a camp stove.

[User] Yeah. So we would refill that every once in a while. I mean, somebody probably came around and did that, you know, they would knock on the door. Do you need new propane? And then we needed oil, as I recall now, for the hot water heater, which only worked for the shower, not for any water sources anywhere else in the house. So we had sinks on the, a sink on the first floor. Was there a sink on the second floor? Maybe a sink on the second floor. But that was all cold water. If you wanted hot water, you had to turn on the hot water heater, which we did rarely, because then you used up your oil supply and that was rather costly. But it's a warm climate and the water heater was on the roof, so it usually was warm enough to take a shower except in the middle of winter. But most times of the year you didn't really need to turn it on to take a shower.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. What was the hardest thing about integrating?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was one thing. And then the other thing I would say that is. The way students, the way the schools operated. And, you know, I'm more interested in. You know, I believe that you learn when you impose some discipline on children.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so I also believe that you should get a grade that you deserve.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so when you're thrown into a situation where everybody's cheating and nobody gives a damn, including the teachers, it's very frustrating. So. That was my big thing, to whip these kids into shape and to make sure that they weren't cheating and.

[Assistant] And how successful were you?