[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I—

[Assistant] I mean, could you have ever envisioned that for Space Station?

[User] Yes. I felt all along that if we had a Space Station, if there was a Space Station, that it would have to be an International Space Station. I didn’t think the United States could afford to do a whole Space Station by itself. I questioned whether the—how much—the amount the Russians would be involved. (Of course, this was back in the ’80s when the Cold War was still on.) But I did envision the Europeans and the Japanese and some other countries being involved. Canadians being involved. And I think it’s—I think it’s great!\n\n I think science has transcended political boundaries for many, many decades. And I think it’s a—it’s important that we try to do things together, and that something of this magnitude certainly lends itself to an international opportunity rather than just one country or one small group of countries going on their own.

[Assistant] I want to have you reflect a little bit on some people and on some institutions that kind of factor into your career in politics and space. And we’ll start with some of the NASA Administrators. Jim Fletcher. Just your thoughts.

[User] Wonderful, wonderful man. He was there twice and was, I think, a great guy. He was a little bit naïve about the political process; but when you went and talked to him and tried to explain it to [him], he was very—he was a very quick learner and could—and would very well respond. And he was a wonderful person. Had a great credibility.

[Assistant] Bob [Robert A.] Frosch, who followed him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wonderful, wonderful man. He was there twice and was, I think, a great guy. He was a little bit naïve about the political process; but when you went and talked to him and tried to explain it to [him], he was very—he was a very quick learner and could—and would very well respond. And he was a wonderful person. Had a great credibility.

[Assistant] Bob [Robert A.] Frosch, who followed him.

[User] Bob came there as, I think, somewhat also naïve about the process…and came there more as a scientist and not familiar with this—with the manned program but more as an oceanographer. But he did a good job in a very troubling time at NASA when—when we were having some budget problems. Things were not going well. But…Bob was a good guy. We got along very well. I can’t say that with every member of the committee, though. But we got along fine.

[Assistant] James Beggs.

[User] Jim was a great guy. Unfortunately, his career was tarnished by something he was later exonerated for. But he understood the political process. He was tough as nails and made a great contribution to NASA.

[Assistant] Bill [William R.] Graham being in place. I mean, some people have said, too, that changeover from, you know, Beggs, who was this fearless leader type, to Bill Graham that you had—it was almost like, you know, the planets collided at the time that Challenger happened to have all—everything in its worst possible scenario. I mean, did you agree with that? Or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bob came there as, I think, somewhat also naïve about the process…and came there more as a scientist and not familiar with this—with the manned program but more as an oceanographer. But he did a good job in a very troubling time at NASA when—when we were having some budget problems. Things were not going well. But…Bob was a good guy. We got along very well. I can’t say that with every member of the committee, though. But we got along fine.

[Assistant] James Beggs.

[User] Jim was a great guy. Unfortunately, his career was tarnished by something he was later exonerated for. But he understood the political process. He was tough as nails and made a great contribution to NASA.

[Assistant] Bill [William R.] Graham being in place. I mean, some people have said, too, that changeover from, you know, Beggs, who was this fearless leader type, to Bill Graham that you had—it was almost like, you know, the planets collided at the time that Challenger happened to have all—everything in its worst possible scenario. I mean, did you agree with that? Or—?

[User] Well, Bill Graham was certainly a different type person than Jim Beggs or a lot of the others. And he came out of the—out of the black world.

[Assistant] Meaning the spy world or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim was a great guy. Unfortunately, his career was tarnished by something he was later exonerated for. But he understood the political process. He was tough as nails and made a great contribution to NASA.

[Assistant] Bill [William R.] Graham being in place. I mean, some people have said, too, that changeover from, you know, Beggs, who was this fearless leader type, to Bill Graham that you had—it was almost like, you know, the planets collided at the time that Challenger happened to have all—everything in its worst possible scenario. I mean, did you agree with that? Or—?

[User] Well, Bill Graham was certainly a different type person than Jim Beggs or a lot of the others. And he came out of the—out of the black world.

[Assistant] Meaning the spy world or—?

[User] The spy world. And, of course, he and Beggs did not get along at all! But he was President Reagan’s choice for that job. And I got along with Graham very well. I think he was—he was a brilliant scientist. I think maybe a little bit out of his element in—as being a NASA Administrator.

[Assistant] In what way? Management skills? Politics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Bill Graham was certainly a different type person than Jim Beggs or a lot of the others. And he came out of the—out of the black world.

[Assistant] Meaning the spy world or—?

[User] The spy world. And, of course, he and Beggs did not get along at all! But he was President Reagan’s choice for that job. And I got along with Graham very well. I think he was—he was a brilliant scientist. I think maybe a little bit out of his element in—as being a NASA Administrator.

[Assistant] In what way? Management skills? Politics?

[User] Well, I think management, and not understanding the political process as he had from his previous life. He later went on to be the President’s Science Advisor. And I think in that he did a great job. And that was more in his—more in his element. I don’t think he’d really managed big programs and a lot of people. And NASA sometimes gets a little—gets a little unwieldy to manage. And I think it was probably a little bit over his element in that as far as the management style.

[Assistant] Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The spy world. And, of course, he and Beggs did not get along at all! But he was President Reagan’s choice for that job. And I got along with Graham very well. I think he was—he was a brilliant scientist. I think maybe a little bit out of his element in—as being a NASA Administrator.

[Assistant] In what way? Management skills? Politics?

[User] Well, I think management, and not understanding the political process as he had from his previous life. He later went on to be the President’s Science Advisor. And I think in that he did a great job. And that was more in his—more in his element. I don’t think he’d really managed big programs and a lot of people. And NASA sometimes gets a little—gets a little unwieldy to manage. And I think it was probably a little bit over his element in that as far as the management style.

[Assistant] Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth.

[User] Well, Bob Gilruth, you know, really brought the Johnson Space Center into fruition. One of the early pioneers at Langley, and was a wonderful guy. Tough but a great guy.

[Assistant] What about Christopher [C.] Kraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think management, and not understanding the political process as he had from his previous life. He later went on to be the President’s Science Advisor. And I think in that he did a great job. And that was more in his—more in his element. I don’t think he’d really managed big programs and a lot of people. And NASA sometimes gets a little—gets a little unwieldy to manage. And I think it was probably a little bit over his element in that as far as the management style.

[Assistant] Bob [Robert R.] Gilruth.

[User] Well, Bob Gilruth, you know, really brought the Johnson Space Center into fruition. One of the early pioneers at Langley, and was a wonderful guy. Tough but a great guy.

[Assistant] What about Christopher [C.] Kraft?

[User] Chris was another very interesting guy. I probably knew—well, I knew Chris better than I did Bob Gilruth. Chris was a tough—was a tough cookie. Smart and ran the Johnson Center and a lot of other places with a pretty iron hand. But Chris was always (I think) a—you never questioned where—you never questioned where he stood. He was a great advocate of the program and a good manager. And I think a good person at that time to run this Center.

[Assistant] Some of your political colleagues, I noticed that in one of the listings of—the committee listings, someone who’s on the committee with you who has now gone on to be (I don’t want to say) a NASA opponent, but he certainly makes his feelings known is [Frank James] Sensenbrenner [Jr.]. And I noticed he was on a committee with you back then. Your thoughts on James Sensenbrenner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the media, in many times, can be very fickle. I think generally they’ve been very supportive of the space program; but then, once you have a launch or two, then they never show up unless something bad is happening. And that—unfortunately bad news is—makes news and not good news.\n\n And I cite the time when the Skylab was going to fall and all the major press, particularly the TV networks, wanted to know where I was going to be when it happened in case it hit Chicago or New York; and then stick a microphone in my face and say, you know, “Congressman, explain how this happened?” And I asked the question before then, I say, “Well, what happens if it lands in the middle of the ocean?” And they say, “Well, we don’t care where you are. We won’t be coming by for an interview.” So, I said, “To heck with you!” (A little stronger than that.)

[Assistant] So, that feeling that bad news is news and—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —good news is not news.

[User] But I think generally the press is—has been very supportive of the space program. And they still break in for launches and so forth.

[Assistant] The—when you reflect back on your committee work, what did you see as some of the most fun of being on that committee? Some of the most fun projects that you think you got to be involved with and oversee? Fun and fascinating, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [LAUGHS] But she got to see a room full of people that I did talk to for a living over the years that had enough respect for me and what I had done that they came out that day. Yeah, those are the ones that stand out and all of the small moments that people reached out and thanked me every year for a number of years. It was a battle to keep NHPRC in business, the National Historical Publications and Records Commission. They would get zero funding, and we would fight and fight and fight, and we'd get them funded again. And every year, I mean, those folks at NHPRC never, ever failed to say thank you. And they were there that day as well and gave me a gift recognizing that. So that was a real poignant kind of moment in my life, in my career, and one that I'll really cherish. So . . .

[Assistant] Yeah. It must feel very nice to know that you were appreciated that much, that that many people turned out and gave you their thanks.

[User] Yeah, exactly. You know, you can get carried away. The first thing I said that day when everybody had said all the nice things about me, and I looked at this room full of smiling faces, I got up to the podium and said, "I'm announcing today my candidacy for President of the United States." [LAUGHS]

[Assistant] Of course you did. [LAUGHS]

[User] And I thought, "Whoa! Hold on a second. I've [LAUGHS] gotten a bit carried away." So, anyway . . .

[Assistant] [LAUGHS] That's awesome. So you retired from the National Archives, but then you went into the private sector, correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I just want to thank you and thank the History Office, and the fact that the agency has this program of oral histories says a lot about the National Archives. And from what I know of you and your leader, Jessie Kratz, I mean, you got the absolute right people doing it, and you've got them doing it for the right reasons. And because you're in an agency that understands the past is prologue, it's a good thing to do this. And I just want to end by congratulating you and your colleagues for your patience and your preparation and your time, because I've genuinely enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Good, because I've really enjoyed it too. So I'm glad that you enjoyed it also, that it wasn't just a long exercise that you were putting yourself through. So this has just been wonderful. It's been so interesting over these past four sessions, and I appreciate you taking the time out to do this, even though, you know, you're traveling around the world and whatever you're doing, a lot of other other projects that you have going on. So I appreciate you taking the time out to talk with me about everything.

[User] Well, Stephanie, it's been a genuine pleasure to meet you. And I will [CROSS- TALKING].

[Assistant] Thank you. Thank you.

[User] You're another person whose career I will now follow. So congratulations. Yeah. And congratulations Archives to have somebody like you in this role. So . . .

[Assistant] Well, thank you. Well, hey, I'm going to stop the recording now, okay? And then I just want you to hang on just for a second, okay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Kennedy was the new president and we heard about his announcement on the news and it was exciting and a friend of mine, Esmail Rosheen, was my roommate at San Diego State and he applied and was accepted into Colombia I. And I applied a week later and ended up in Bolivia II. Wasn't much time in between the time we applied, neither one of us had graduated. We still had, we were still undergraduates. But once we got accepted, we were fired up and ready to go.

[Assistant] Ok, so did you do? So basically you joined Peace Corps because of the Kennedy call?

[User] Yeah, well, I mean, yeah.

[Assistant] And you wanted to be out doing something?

[User] And that and we had been working on my Spanish some over the years at San Diego State. We were close to the border. So Will and I, Orvano, another friend of mine. We’d go down to Mexico and hang out for the weekend or a week and practice our Spanish and stay up all night and drink and have a good time. And so the idea of going to Latin America suited me fine.

[Assistant] OK, so what did your family think when you decided to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, I mean, yeah.

[Assistant] And you wanted to be out doing something?

[User] And that and we had been working on my Spanish some over the years at San Diego State. We were close to the border. So Will and I, Orvano, another friend of mine. We’d go down to Mexico and hang out for the weekend or a week and practice our Spanish and stay up all night and drink and have a good time. And so the idea of going to Latin America suited me fine.

[Assistant] OK, so what did your family think when you decided to do that?

[User] I can't remember. I was estranged from my dad at the time. I can't remember him having any comment. Otherwise, my mom was kind of excited about it. My brother, you know, nobody had any much to say when I was the baby of the family and pretty much did whatever I wanted to do. And they thought it was a good idea. I was the only one who was finishing college, so I guess Mom was a little concerned that I hadn’t finished, but I told her I’d do it when I got back.

[Assistant] So when you apply, did you ask for any specific country or any place you wanted to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that and we had been working on my Spanish some over the years at San Diego State. We were close to the border. So Will and I, Orvano, another friend of mine. We’d go down to Mexico and hang out for the weekend or a week and practice our Spanish and stay up all night and drink and have a good time. And so the idea of going to Latin America suited me fine.

[Assistant] OK, so what did your family think when you decided to do that?

[User] I can't remember. I was estranged from my dad at the time. I can't remember him having any comment. Otherwise, my mom was kind of excited about it. My brother, you know, nobody had any much to say when I was the baby of the family and pretty much did whatever I wanted to do. And they thought it was a good idea. I was the only one who was finishing college, so I guess Mom was a little concerned that I hadn’t finished, but I told her I’d do it when I got back.

[Assistant] So when you apply, did you ask for any specific country or any place you wanted to go?

[User] I might have asked for Colombia because my buddy was going to Colombia, or at least maybe I didn't even know when I submitted the application, but I would have liked to have gone to Colombia. But yeah, I got Bolivia I've ever heard of Bolivia before, I doubt I doubt that I had, although I’d taken a lot of Latin American history at the time, so anyway, Bolivia didn't make any difference to me. One place is as good as another. I don't know if I would have wanted to go to Africa or I was, well, Latin America was what I was interested in, so I never thought about those other places until I went and ended up as a recruiter for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, well, and so you were invited to join the Bolivia II project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember. I was estranged from my dad at the time. I can't remember him having any comment. Otherwise, my mom was kind of excited about it. My brother, you know, nobody had any much to say when I was the baby of the family and pretty much did whatever I wanted to do. And they thought it was a good idea. I was the only one who was finishing college, so I guess Mom was a little concerned that I hadn’t finished, but I told her I’d do it when I got back.

[Assistant] So when you apply, did you ask for any specific country or any place you wanted to go?

[User] I might have asked for Colombia because my buddy was going to Colombia, or at least maybe I didn't even know when I submitted the application, but I would have liked to have gone to Colombia. But yeah, I got Bolivia I've ever heard of Bolivia before, I doubt I doubt that I had, although I’d taken a lot of Latin American history at the time, so anyway, Bolivia didn't make any difference to me. One place is as good as another. I don't know if I would have wanted to go to Africa or I was, well, Latin America was what I was interested in, so I never thought about those other places until I went and ended up as a recruiter for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, well, and so you were invited to join the Bolivia II project?

[User] Yeah, invited to join Bolivia II, and we showed up at Arizona State University in Tempe in June 1962 and started the training program.

[Assistant] Did you do anything special to get ready to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I might have asked for Colombia because my buddy was going to Colombia, or at least maybe I didn't even know when I submitted the application, but I would have liked to have gone to Colombia. But yeah, I got Bolivia I've ever heard of Bolivia before, I doubt I doubt that I had, although I’d taken a lot of Latin American history at the time, so anyway, Bolivia didn't make any difference to me. One place is as good as another. I don't know if I would have wanted to go to Africa or I was, well, Latin America was what I was interested in, so I never thought about those other places until I went and ended up as a recruiter for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, well, and so you were invited to join the Bolivia II project?

[User] Yeah, invited to join Bolivia II, and we showed up at Arizona State University in Tempe in June 1962 and started the training program.

[Assistant] Did you do anything special to get ready to go?

[User] No, I quit my job and I don't remember how I got to Arizona because I lived in the desert down in Southern California. I was in San Diego and I don't remember how we got over there.

[Assistant] I know they sent me a ticket.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, invited to join Bolivia II, and we showed up at Arizona State University in Tempe in June 1962 and started the training program.

[Assistant] Did you do anything special to get ready to go?

[User] No, I quit my job and I don't remember how I got to Arizona because I lived in the desert down in Southern California. I was in San Diego and I don't remember how we got over there.

[Assistant] I know they sent me a ticket.

[User] Airline ticket?

[Assistant] Airline ticket from Salt Lake City. So, for all you know, they might have, you might have flown.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I quit my job and I don't remember how I got to Arizona because I lived in the desert down in Southern California. I was in San Diego and I don't remember how we got over there.

[Assistant] I know they sent me a ticket.

[User] Airline ticket?

[Assistant] Airline ticket from Salt Lake City. So, for all you know, they might have, you might have flown.

[User] From where? They would have gone into Los Angeles. Was almost as far away as Arizona. I lived halfway between Los Angeles and Arizona.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's talk about the training. What did you think of the training process? What exact things did you experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Airline ticket?

[Assistant] Airline ticket from Salt Lake City. So, for all you know, they might have, you might have flown.

[User] From where? They would have gone into Los Angeles. Was almost as far away as Arizona. I lived halfway between Los Angeles and Arizona.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's talk about the training. What did you think of the training process? What exact things did you experience?

[User] Well, I enjoyed most of the training, especially the general studies type of stuff and the cultural stuff. The language for me was a lot harder. I was not and never have been a good linguist like other people in the group, including you. But so the language part, the hours of language, that taxed me a little bit. And probably they had some doubts about sending me because of my poor ability to learn Spanish. So subsequently the State Department sent me back to language school three times and I finally tested out at fairly high in the State Department, but it took years. In fact, I didn't really start learning Spanish until I got a girlfriend in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah, that happens.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From where? They would have gone into Los Angeles. Was almost as far away as Arizona. I lived halfway between Los Angeles and Arizona.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's talk about the training. What did you think of the training process? What exact things did you experience?

[User] Well, I enjoyed most of the training, especially the general studies type of stuff and the cultural stuff. The language for me was a lot harder. I was not and never have been a good linguist like other people in the group, including you. But so the language part, the hours of language, that taxed me a little bit. And probably they had some doubts about sending me because of my poor ability to learn Spanish. So subsequently the State Department sent me back to language school three times and I finally tested out at fairly high in the State Department, but it took years. In fact, I didn't really start learning Spanish until I got a girlfriend in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah, that happens.

[User] Marcella, do you remember Marcella?

[Assistant] Yes. Did you decide, did you find that the training was useful for your Peace Corps service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I enjoyed most of the training, especially the general studies type of stuff and the cultural stuff. The language for me was a lot harder. I was not and never have been a good linguist like other people in the group, including you. But so the language part, the hours of language, that taxed me a little bit. And probably they had some doubts about sending me because of my poor ability to learn Spanish. So subsequently the State Department sent me back to language school three times and I finally tested out at fairly high in the State Department, but it took years. In fact, I didn't really start learning Spanish until I got a girlfriend in Bolivia.

[Assistant] Yeah, that happens.

[User] Marcella, do you remember Marcella?

[Assistant] Yes. Did you decide, did you find that the training was useful for your Peace Corps service?

[User] Well, I enjoyed it. I mean, especially I was young and in those days and I enjoyed the Outward Bound and I enjoyed the travel associated with it. You’d get tired some. And I think it would have been a lot easier for me if I had been a better language student because I was the biggest part of it. But I enjoyed the training and I especially enjoyed Puerto Rico, where it was a fun time in Puerto Rico. I think the group pretty much all got along well. We didn't really have any big issues among ourselves. And the only real trauma came, I think, in Puerto Rico when they started cutting people and we all lost a few friends that we never saw again after that. And I think at that time, too, I started losing a little respect for some of the, some of the administrative people for Peace Corps. And I think up until then, I never questioned them, but I think after that, then I started losing respect for specifically one person who I thought was incapable of judging us as potential volunteers. And yet he was sitting there on that committee and I thought he was an idiot, basically.

[Assistant] Well, there were a number of people who.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Marcella, do you remember Marcella?

[Assistant] Yes. Did you decide, did you find that the training was useful for your Peace Corps service?

[User] Well, I enjoyed it. I mean, especially I was young and in those days and I enjoyed the Outward Bound and I enjoyed the travel associated with it. You’d get tired some. And I think it would have been a lot easier for me if I had been a better language student because I was the biggest part of it. But I enjoyed the training and I especially enjoyed Puerto Rico, where it was a fun time in Puerto Rico. I think the group pretty much all got along well. We didn't really have any big issues among ourselves. And the only real trauma came, I think, in Puerto Rico when they started cutting people and we all lost a few friends that we never saw again after that. And I think at that time, too, I started losing a little respect for some of the, some of the administrative people for Peace Corps. And I think up until then, I never questioned them, but I think after that, then I started losing respect for specifically one person who I thought was incapable of judging us as potential volunteers. And yet he was sitting there on that committee and I thought he was an idiot, basically.

[Assistant] Well, there were a number of people who.

[User] You know who I'm talking about too?

[Assistant] I think so. Ok, so all right, we did have an extended training period. I mean, I don't think there's been a group since then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I enjoyed it. I mean, especially I was young and in those days and I enjoyed the Outward Bound and I enjoyed the travel associated with it. You’d get tired some. And I think it would have been a lot easier for me if I had been a better language student because I was the biggest part of it. But I enjoyed the training and I especially enjoyed Puerto Rico, where it was a fun time in Puerto Rico. I think the group pretty much all got along well. We didn't really have any big issues among ourselves. And the only real trauma came, I think, in Puerto Rico when they started cutting people and we all lost a few friends that we never saw again after that. And I think at that time, too, I started losing a little respect for some of the, some of the administrative people for Peace Corps. And I think up until then, I never questioned them, but I think after that, then I started losing respect for specifically one person who I thought was incapable of judging us as potential volunteers. And yet he was sitting there on that committee and I thought he was an idiot, basically.

[Assistant] Well, there were a number of people who.

[User] You know who I'm talking about too?

[Assistant] I think so. Ok, so all right, we did have an extended training period. I mean, I don't think there's been a group since then.

[User] Six months.

[Assistant] Who ended up training so long because of all these things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Six months.

[Assistant] Who ended up training so long because of all these things.

[User] But the fact is, did we go home and then come back and that's when they're extended it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And after that, I didn't train much. I had a good you know, I went up to Vermont, which had never been in Vermont and fall in Vermont was just absolutely gorgeous. And I was from a place where I've never seen before like that. And I liked to read and sit in the windows of that big house and read a book.

[Assistant] It was kind of like a vacation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the fact is, did we go home and then come back and that's when they're extended it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And after that, I didn't train much. I had a good you know, I went up to Vermont, which had never been in Vermont and fall in Vermont was just absolutely gorgeous. And I was from a place where I've never seen before like that. And I liked to read and sit in the windows of that big house and read a book.

[Assistant] It was kind of like a vacation.

[User] Vacation. Yeah. And then what’d they do, send us down to Miami, put us up there for a week or two?

[Assistant] You know, we were in Miami, we met in Miami. And then that was the night of the Cuban Missile Crisis speech, the Kennedy put up or shut up speech to Khrushchev. And then they sent us to Vermont. From Vermont, we went directly to Bolivia by way of Miami, you can't get out of it going south.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after that, I didn't train much. I had a good you know, I went up to Vermont, which had never been in Vermont and fall in Vermont was just absolutely gorgeous. And I was from a place where I've never seen before like that. And I liked to read and sit in the windows of that big house and read a book.

[Assistant] It was kind of like a vacation.

[User] Vacation. Yeah. And then what’d they do, send us down to Miami, put us up there for a week or two?

[Assistant] You know, we were in Miami, we met in Miami. And then that was the night of the Cuban Missile Crisis speech, the Kennedy put up or shut up speech to Khrushchev. And then they sent us to Vermont. From Vermont, we went directly to Bolivia by way of Miami, you can't get out of it going south.

[User] So, you know, as long as kind of you get tired of being trained on that. Yeah. And we were both enjoying the trip down. I still remember fondly the trip down to La Paz flying on a 707. It was the largest prop plane at the time, don’t remember what it was, but it was the largest prop plane. We landed in Peru and I remember getting a shoeshine and talking to somebody in Spanish at the shoeshine. And then we landed up in La Paz and you knew you were in trouble when the airline stewardesses all stood with oxygen masks at the door when they let us off. And that was quite a sight. And then I remember going to the palace for a reception with Paz Estenssoro, and I have pictures of that. And that was really interesting and La Paz was fascinating, but I'm just just happy I didn't stay up there. I've been back two or three times to La Paz, it hasn’t changed. That trip from La Paz down to Cochabamba was a fascinating trip. I drove one of the jeeps and it was from this road that was really scary. Remember that? It was a frightening road.

[Assistant] Terrible. I'm afraid of heights so it was like a nightmare.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know, as long as kind of you get tired of being trained on that. Yeah. And we were both enjoying the trip down. I still remember fondly the trip down to La Paz flying on a 707. It was the largest prop plane at the time, don’t remember what it was, but it was the largest prop plane. We landed in Peru and I remember getting a shoeshine and talking to somebody in Spanish at the shoeshine. And then we landed up in La Paz and you knew you were in trouble when the airline stewardesses all stood with oxygen masks at the door when they let us off. And that was quite a sight. And then I remember going to the palace for a reception with Paz Estenssoro, and I have pictures of that. And that was really interesting and La Paz was fascinating, but I'm just just happy I didn't stay up there. I've been back two or three times to La Paz, it hasn’t changed. That trip from La Paz down to Cochabamba was a fascinating trip. I drove one of the jeeps and it was from this road that was really scary. Remember that? It was a frightening road.

[Assistant] Terrible. I'm afraid of heights so it was like a nightmare.

[User] Yeah. I mean, it was really something. And those roads were barely passable in parts and we all made it down. And then when you get into Cochabamba, the valley, it starts to lighten up and you see all the growth and the vegetation. And it's really quite a pleasant surprise. I guess we stayed there a while. I don’t remember driving to Santa Cruz, but few of us went down there. I guess we drove.

[Assistant] Yeah, we drove it. We were there just a few days. I think it was Thanksgiving when we got there.

[User] And we went down there

[Assistant] And we got to, you know, drive down to Santa Cruz. So when you got to where you were going to be, what, tell me about that experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, it was really something. And those roads were barely passable in parts and we all made it down. And then when you get into Cochabamba, the valley, it starts to lighten up and you see all the growth and the vegetation. And it's really quite a pleasant surprise. I guess we stayed there a while. I don’t remember driving to Santa Cruz, but few of us went down there. I guess we drove.

[Assistant] Yeah, we drove it. We were there just a few days. I think it was Thanksgiving when we got there.

[User] And we went down there

[Assistant] And we got to, you know, drive down to Santa Cruz. So when you got to where you were going to be, what, tell me about that experience.

[User] In terms of the job?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Well, what were you supposed to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we went down there

[Assistant] And we got to, you know, drive down to Santa Cruz. So when you got to where you were going to be, what, tell me about that experience.

[User] In terms of the job?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Well, what were you supposed to do?

[User] That was kind of funny. I was supposed to be on the experiment station. And who was with, who was I out there with?

[Assistant] Jim Herberger? No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Jim Herberger was there.

[Assistant] Norm Coble.

[User] Norm was there, yeah. And a kid that stuttered.

[Assistant] Oh, Peter.

[User] Peter Roycraft and Peter and I shared a house, a little house out there, or half a house. I forget what Peter's job was, but he was actually an agronomist or something you can actually do. That was a political scientist. I didn't know how to do anything. But they sent me out there to be my counterpart was to be the maintenance man at the experiment station and the job the best I could describe it, was to rebuild and get functional, the engines that had been left at the experiment station as part of the Point Four program. The Point Four program put a lot of money in the experiment stations and schools, and they gave them equipment and as soon as the machines broke down, everything else broke down with it. The concept was that they'd send these guys out to work and they didn't have any parts or the machinery. So that was essentially in the end, there was no job and so I spent the rest of my time making up jobs and making sure that I kept myself scarce from any authority figures that were trying to make me accountable for some work effort, and I had a wonderful time.

[Assistant] So what kind of things did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some pretty big cattle ranch. So Mumford and I hung out together a lot. Then I worked, I helped a Marian priest, Jim Fitzgerald, who was a priest in Saavedra, and he also came out to Mineros. I’d help him with the kids, or do different things with him. You know, I like to say that I didn't have a job. They forgot to give me a good job and I didn't.

[Assistant] Well, they did that with a lot of people.

[User] And it was too much effort for them to recreate your job somehow. And some of the people that were in charge of that stuff didn't know what they were doing anyway. And so it was best just to leave it alone, not complain and get on with your life and have a good time and, you know, enjoy the place.

[Assistant] Do you can you think of any memorable events that happened while you were there?

[User] Memorable events? Well, carnival. I got involved with the carnival and a combasa in Santa Cruz with guys, gals my own age, and they just accepted me like I was part of the family. And I mean, it was a ball. It was seven days. Yeah, eleven days or something. And we partied. We had parties going every day, some place. That was my first experience with that. And it was it was fascinating and a lot of fun and a lot of nice kids. And that was year I was hanging out with guys my own age and gals my own age. And it was pretty much the elite class in Santa Cruz, the youth and beautiful women and good dancers and good food. And I was in their homes and it was really very interesting, very nice.

[Assistant] And, uh, where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was too much effort for them to recreate your job somehow. And some of the people that were in charge of that stuff didn't know what they were doing anyway. And so it was best just to leave it alone, not complain and get on with your life and have a good time and, you know, enjoy the place.

[Assistant] Do you can you think of any memorable events that happened while you were there?

[User] Memorable events? Well, carnival. I got involved with the carnival and a combasa in Santa Cruz with guys, gals my own age, and they just accepted me like I was part of the family. And I mean, it was a ball. It was seven days. Yeah, eleven days or something. And we partied. We had parties going every day, some place. That was my first experience with that. And it was it was fascinating and a lot of fun and a lot of nice kids. And that was year I was hanging out with guys my own age and gals my own age. And it was pretty much the elite class in Santa Cruz, the youth and beautiful women and good dancers and good food. And I was in their homes and it was really very interesting, very nice.

[Assistant] And, uh, where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] I was living in Santa Cruz and that was another job I made. I got a job organizing the USIS library. So I was helping organize that and I did some English teaching, but not much. And I was living in Santa Cruz and I heard it on the radio in Spanish. And they kept repeating it, as they would a news notice like that and repeating it. And my mind refused to hear what it was saying. And finally it came through what they were saying. And I ran out to find some other Americans who knew about it and heard about it and that when I. That was quite a thing.

[Assistant] It was pretty traumatic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Memorable events? Well, carnival. I got involved with the carnival and a combasa in Santa Cruz with guys, gals my own age, and they just accepted me like I was part of the family. And I mean, it was a ball. It was seven days. Yeah, eleven days or something. And we partied. We had parties going every day, some place. That was my first experience with that. And it was it was fascinating and a lot of fun and a lot of nice kids. And that was year I was hanging out with guys my own age and gals my own age. And it was pretty much the elite class in Santa Cruz, the youth and beautiful women and good dancers and good food. And I was in their homes and it was really very interesting, very nice.

[Assistant] And, uh, where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] I was living in Santa Cruz and that was another job I made. I got a job organizing the USIS library. So I was helping organize that and I did some English teaching, but not much. And I was living in Santa Cruz and I heard it on the radio in Spanish. And they kept repeating it, as they would a news notice like that and repeating it. And my mind refused to hear what it was saying. And finally it came through what they were saying. And I ran out to find some other Americans who knew about it and heard about it and that when I. That was quite a thing.

[Assistant] It was pretty traumatic.

[User] It was pretty traumatic. Yeah, it was traumatic for me. And then there was a guy down there, he was in Bolivia III or something. His name was Reese. And I remember seeing him and I was kind of just shocked. And I said and he says he said something like, so what? I just looked at him and I said, you’re an idiot, you know. I never dealt with him again.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember him, he was. That would not surprise me, that comment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was living in Santa Cruz and that was another job I made. I got a job organizing the USIS library. So I was helping organize that and I did some English teaching, but not much. And I was living in Santa Cruz and I heard it on the radio in Spanish. And they kept repeating it, as they would a news notice like that and repeating it. And my mind refused to hear what it was saying. And finally it came through what they were saying. And I ran out to find some other Americans who knew about it and heard about it and that when I. That was quite a thing.

[Assistant] It was pretty traumatic.

[User] It was pretty traumatic. Yeah, it was traumatic for me. And then there was a guy down there, he was in Bolivia III or something. His name was Reese. And I remember seeing him and I was kind of just shocked. And I said and he says he said something like, so what? I just looked at him and I said, you’re an idiot, you know. I never dealt with him again.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember him, he was. That would not surprise me, that comment.

[User] Something like that, I mean, you know.

[Assistant] Ok, so it sounds like you had a really varied experience down there and a lot of different things that you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was pretty traumatic. Yeah, it was traumatic for me. And then there was a guy down there, he was in Bolivia III or something. His name was Reese. And I remember seeing him and I was kind of just shocked. And I said and he says he said something like, so what? I just looked at him and I said, you’re an idiot, you know. I never dealt with him again.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember him, he was. That would not surprise me, that comment.

[User] Something like that, I mean, you know.

[Assistant] Ok, so it sounds like you had a really varied experience down there and a lot of different things that you did.

[User] I mean, you probably remember things I did that I don't remember, but, you know, because I hung out with you guys as much as anybody, you know.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah, well, I remember the carnival in Santa Cruz, you know, blue paint.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something like that, I mean, you know.

[Assistant] Ok, so it sounds like you had a really varied experience down there and a lot of different things that you did.

[User] I mean, you probably remember things I did that I don't remember, but, you know, because I hung out with you guys as much as anybody, you know.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah, well, I remember the carnival in Santa Cruz, you know, blue paint.

[User] Water fights.

[Assistant] Oh my. So at the end of all this, what do you think, what did you take away from it, that that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, you probably remember things I did that I don't remember, but, you know, because I hung out with you guys as much as anybody, you know.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah, well, I remember the carnival in Santa Cruz, you know, blue paint.

[User] Water fights.

[Assistant] Oh my. So at the end of all this, what do you think, what did you take away from it, that that experience?

[User] Well, it ended up affecting a whole career because I've now been since then, I've been overseas for 25 years. I ended up in the Foreign Service.

[Assistant] So it was really a life changing experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Water fights.

[Assistant] Oh my. So at the end of all this, what do you think, what did you take away from it, that that experience?

[User] Well, it ended up affecting a whole career because I've now been since then, I've been overseas for 25 years. I ended up in the Foreign Service.

[Assistant] So it was really a life changing experience?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you want something that's good for me, it really affected, you know, which direction I went. And I think it was just, you know, piqued my interest. I know that I became motivated to go back to school and to get a graduate education because I felt when I was in the Peace Corps that I really, as a young person down there, I didn't have anything to offer them. And I said, if I'm going to go back overseas and a career in any way, I need to prepare myself so that I have some skills that will make a contribution to the country that I'm in, because in the Peace Corps, I didn't have any skills make. So they'll relax and move, you know, do no harm. You know, I really believed it and for the most part tried to live by it. So I didn't do any harm, but I didn't do any good either. But when I went back, I went back to school with some motivation to learn skills and ended up with a Ph.D. in agricultural economics and got hired back, after three year tour in Vietnam, and then some time off to get rid of a wife, and etc. I went back to grad school, went back to work for USAID, and then went directly back overseas and stayed a whole career with AID over there.

[Assistant] So tell me a little bit, when you got out of Peace Corps, you went to Vietnam, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, refugees and farmers. Big programs, lots of responsibility. Very difficult situation. And it was a nasty area that I was in and, you know, I was lucky to get out of there.

[Assistant] Ok, so talk about what you think you got out of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, certainly an appreciation for other cultures, I think, you know, growing up in California and growing up in a community that was half was 50 percent was Mexican-American. I grew up with that culture, but really didn't. You don't learn to appreciate them as much until I went to Latin America and then I developed a real love of Latin people and and that stayed with me. And but I think, you know, in terms of Bolivia itself, you know, Bolivia pretty much a basket case, except, I mean, it's got pockets of real wealth and be able to create it. But because of its large indigenous population and it's you know, it's always going to be one of the basket cases. And there are several that have served in Africa the same way, you know. Difficult to just see how they're going to, you know, really move, but I've been back a couple of times and, you know, Santa Cruz itself is a booming metropolis, you know, but Mineros where we were, Saavedra, nothing. Mineros. You know, in fact, the road bypassed Saavedra died a slow death when the road went around it because they paved it out so far. And Mineros, they put a sugarcane factory out there. Lots of drug dealers, you know, not a good start, you know, difficult.

[Assistant] So one of the things that the goals of the Peace Corps was to provide technical assistance was requested to promote a better understanding of the U.S. and to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans. So of those?

[User] Well, two of them, I think we did all right on.

[Assistant] The better understanding of the U.S. and better understanding of other peoples by Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, two of them, I think we did all right on.

[Assistant] The better understanding of the U.S. and better understanding of other peoples by Americans?

[User] Yeah, I think we did pretty good there. I think on the technical assistance side, but there are you know, there are real exceptions to that. Some people, you know, really provided excellent technical services, you guys that were nurses or, you know, had skills to offer.

[Assistant] Well, I figured out years ago that I was prepared to do the job they wanted me to do. Fifteen years later, I was prepared to do it, but there I just did the best I could. OK, so tell me?

[User] Do you remember taking that jeep tonight with that lady to the hospital in Santa Cruz? She was pregnant, had the baby. Didn’t we come and pick you up?

[Assistant] No, I don't remember. I think I was already in Santa Cruz. Maybe then because I went to Santa Cruz.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we did pretty good there. I think on the technical assistance side, but there are you know, there are real exceptions to that. Some people, you know, really provided excellent technical services, you guys that were nurses or, you know, had skills to offer.

[Assistant] Well, I figured out years ago that I was prepared to do the job they wanted me to do. Fifteen years later, I was prepared to do it, but there I just did the best I could. OK, so tell me?

[User] Do you remember taking that jeep tonight with that lady to the hospital in Santa Cruz? She was pregnant, had the baby. Didn’t we come and pick you up?

[Assistant] No, I don't remember. I think I was already in Santa Cruz. Maybe then because I went to Santa Cruz.

[User] We had a harrowing trip all the way in with a lady having a baby in the back of the jeep. And we got her in there. Lunelle was in there, Myrtis was in there. But she was a teacher at that school, and then we just pushed her in at like the swinging doors of the emergency room and like two minuets later this nurse comes out and hands me this baby. She assumed it was mine.

[Assistant] Oh well! So tell me a little bit about the kinds of things you did after you got out. You said you worked for the USAID for 25 years. And were you doing economic development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you remember taking that jeep tonight with that lady to the hospital in Santa Cruz? She was pregnant, had the baby. Didn’t we come and pick you up?

[Assistant] No, I don't remember. I think I was already in Santa Cruz. Maybe then because I went to Santa Cruz.

[User] We had a harrowing trip all the way in with a lady having a baby in the back of the jeep. And we got her in there. Lunelle was in there, Myrtis was in there. But she was a teacher at that school, and then we just pushed her in at like the swinging doors of the emergency room and like two minuets later this nurse comes out and hands me this baby. She assumed it was mine.

[Assistant] Oh well! So tell me a little bit about the kinds of things you did after you got out. You said you worked for the USAID for 25 years. And were you doing economic development?

[User] Yeah. When I first started out we were programing. Well, the first assignment that I had after this, after Vietnam, but it was Costa Rica and there we were doing alternative crops and trying to diversify away from bananas and coffee and very successfully started growing every kind of spice known. And it's quite an industry now in Costa Rica. And that was started really by the guy that I went to work for down there. He was a he was a horticulturalist and he started that project. He pushed it forward. But what we ended up doing is employees of AID were writing the documents that move the money. So we did a lot of analysis of the economy, a lot of analysis of the of the implementation capabilities of the government, and then trying to plug in where we could use our technical assistance or scholarships to train people to implement those programs.

[Assistant] Do you think you could have done that job without the Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. When I first started out we were programing. Well, the first assignment that I had after this, after Vietnam, but it was Costa Rica and there we were doing alternative crops and trying to diversify away from bananas and coffee and very successfully started growing every kind of spice known. And it's quite an industry now in Costa Rica. And that was started really by the guy that I went to work for down there. He was a he was a horticulturalist and he started that project. He pushed it forward. But what we ended up doing is employees of AID were writing the documents that move the money. So we did a lot of analysis of the economy, a lot of analysis of the of the implementation capabilities of the government, and then trying to plug in where we could use our technical assistance or scholarships to train people to implement those programs.

[Assistant] Do you think you could have done that job without the Peace Corps experience?

[User] Yeah, well, yeah, I could’ve but probably. I don't know. I just. Yeah, I mean, Peace Corps and I didn't think and by the time I got back there is a PhD and I was rather analytical, you know, in terms of data and the scope of what I was the ability to analyze problems and to develop solutions for them was much, much different. I think as a volunteer, I wouldn't have had a clue.

[Assistant] Oh, no, no, no. But I'm thinking later on in your career that where you ended up spending so much time overseas, if being in the Peace Corps had facilitated your being able to get take that trajectory.

[User] Yeah, probably started as you had empathy for the people you were working for, but you had to have that or you wouldn't have been in that business pretty much. I don’t know if Peace Corps even had that.

[Assistant] Ok, so do you have any other things that you want to want to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The NASA team had a team leader, and he dealt with the senior officers of the ship. All of the NASA team, whether there were two of us on a secondary ship or thirty of us on a primary ship, would be treated as an officer, in that our quarters would be in officers’ country. We dined in the officers’ mess. But clearly we operated within the protocol of the military chain of command. They tried to stay out of our way when we were doing something that was very specific to our job and didn’t involve military people. But when we were working as a team, we went through the normal chain of command; with the swimmers. Our senior training person would work with the officer in charge of the swimmers. So it was a very regimented way of dealing in a military environment.

[Assistant] You mentioned last time it was the same ship for Apollo 11 and then again with [Apollo] 12. Did you work with the same divers and the same personnel?

[User] We did on [Apollo] 11 and 12. It was the same UDT team that recovered the spacecraft, so, of course, the second time it was easier. It was the same deck officer that was responsible for our accommodations in the hangar deck, and it was the same captain of the ship. It was Captain [Carl J.] Seiberlich on 11 and 12. He just recently passed away, and some of the folks that were on Apollo 11 and 12 actually went to his memorial service at Arlington [National Cemetery, Arlington, Virginia].

[Assistant] So the relationship while you were working with the DoD personnel, obviously you got close to them, living in close quarters for two or three weeks at a time.

[User] Yes, and oftentimes we made friends that became lifelong friends from those events. I still keep track of a couple of the young officers that were on board ship when I was. Of course, they’re not young anymore. They’re in their sixties just like I am.

[Assistant] Being from Texas, when you first started in Landing and Recovery, was this the first time you were exposed to being on ships and boats and that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did on [Apollo] 11 and 12. It was the same UDT team that recovered the spacecraft, so, of course, the second time it was easier. It was the same deck officer that was responsible for our accommodations in the hangar deck, and it was the same captain of the ship. It was Captain [Carl J.] Seiberlich on 11 and 12. He just recently passed away, and some of the folks that were on Apollo 11 and 12 actually went to his memorial service at Arlington [National Cemetery, Arlington, Virginia].

[Assistant] So the relationship while you were working with the DoD personnel, obviously you got close to them, living in close quarters for two or three weeks at a time.

[User] Yes, and oftentimes we made friends that became lifelong friends from those events. I still keep track of a couple of the young officers that were on board ship when I was. Of course, they’re not young anymore. They’re in their sixties just like I am.

[Assistant] Being from Texas, when you first started in Landing and Recovery, was this the first time you were exposed to being on ships and boats and that sort of thing?

[User] I had been on small boats. I’d been out in the Gulf [of Mexico] fishing often with my father. But I had never been on a large ship at all, and so it was just a great adventure for a twenty-three-year-old.

[Assistant] I just wanted to ask a question about when you first joined NASA. There was something in some of the research [about] qualification tests for recovery engineers. Back in the late sixties when you joined, you went to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth [Texas] for a high-altitude chamber qualification test?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and oftentimes we made friends that became lifelong friends from those events. I still keep track of a couple of the young officers that were on board ship when I was. Of course, they’re not young anymore. They’re in their sixties just like I am.

[Assistant] Being from Texas, when you first started in Landing and Recovery, was this the first time you were exposed to being on ships and boats and that sort of thing?

[User] I had been on small boats. I’d been out in the Gulf [of Mexico] fishing often with my father. But I had never been on a large ship at all, and so it was just a great adventure for a twenty-three-year-old.

[Assistant] I just wanted to ask a question about when you first joined NASA. There was something in some of the research [about] qualification tests for recovery engineers. Back in the late sixties when you joined, you went to Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth [Texas] for a high-altitude chamber qualification test?

[User] Actually, by the time I came on board in 1967, we had an altitude chamber here at NASA. It had been installed at NASA. So I didn’t go to the one at Carswell. I did my altitude chamber runs here at JSC [Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas].\n\n But the early folks did, and that was just to—when we were going to fly on military aircraft, there was a requirement to understand high altitude or relatively high altitude hypoxia event, if you had a depressurization of the aircraft. It’s not like an airliner where the little oxygen mask flips down. You had to take some specific action to get to where there was a walk-around bottle to breathe, or you were going to be unconscious when they got down to altitude. Of course, you’d probably revive. But we all went through that training, because we were going to be flying on military aircraft.

[Assistant] If you’d like, let’s move on to Apollo 13 and talk about your assignment for that mission and if you were on a ship, and, then, of course, after the accident and what role you played during that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did have some involvement in the Skylab software. Most of that Skylab software development was a Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] activity, not a JSC activity. But we had a number of interfaces between the Command Module software and the Station for flight control system. So we did a lot of simulating working those interfaces when they were trying to speed up the development. But I was not a part of that development team at all, other than the fact that we simmed with it and figured out what wasn’t working and what was working.

[Assistant] Did you have any involvement during SMEAT [Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test]?

[User] No, none at all.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you would be there for the rendezvous and then you would go away and then come back every once in a while. What were you doing in between, on those times when you weren’t on duty in the Control Center?

[User] Typical office work; following the mission and then working on planning for the next mission.

[Assistant] Is there anything about Skylab that you’d like to mention that we haven’t talked about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, none at all.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you would be there for the rendezvous and then you would go away and then come back every once in a while. What were you doing in between, on those times when you weren’t on duty in the Control Center?

[User] Typical office work; following the mission and then working on planning for the next mission.

[Assistant] Is there anything about Skylab that you’d like to mention that we haven’t talked about?

[User] Well, it was interesting, quite interesting for me. I had gotten married just before we started Skylab. My wife worked at NASA, and she was one of the teleprinter operators for Skylab, the person that put together the messages and shipped them up. Skylab was the first mission that we had that we had like a teleprinter. It was not as good as a fax machine, but it was how we communicated with data, written word, with the crew. It always seemed like we were—when I was doing shift work in the Control Center on the Command Module, she was always on a different shift, and so several weeks in a row we’d kind of pass in the night as we were working odd shifts. It made me absolutely certain I did not want to be a shift worker forever, for long period of times.

[Assistant] Yes, it could be a little difficult on a marriage even after you’ve been married a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Typical office work; following the mission and then working on planning for the next mission.

[Assistant] Is there anything about Skylab that you’d like to mention that we haven’t talked about?

[User] Well, it was interesting, quite interesting for me. I had gotten married just before we started Skylab. My wife worked at NASA, and she was one of the teleprinter operators for Skylab, the person that put together the messages and shipped them up. Skylab was the first mission that we had that we had like a teleprinter. It was not as good as a fax machine, but it was how we communicated with data, written word, with the crew. It always seemed like we were—when I was doing shift work in the Control Center on the Command Module, she was always on a different shift, and so several weeks in a row we’d kind of pass in the night as we were working odd shifts. It made me absolutely certain I did not want to be a shift worker forever, for long period of times.

[Assistant] Yes, it could be a little difficult on a marriage even after you’ve been married a while.

[User] That’s right. That’s right. But I guess the two most memorable things was the first manned flight with Pete [Charles Peter] Conrad [Jr.] and the work they did to save the Skylab vehicle, because it was wounded seriously during the ascent, losing one of the solar arrays. Without the incredible design team on the ground that built the solar heat shield and the work of Pete and his crew to get all that installed, we would not have had a Skylab mission. It was an amazing engineering feat, both on the ground and in space, to make all that happen.

[Assistant] Did you stay in that area? I think you said you stayed in it for Apollo-Soyuz, also. What were your duties during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good morning.

[Assistant] The first question is, tell us a little bit about the position that you held when you got started in the program and what your responsibilities are.

[User] When we started the program?

[Assistant] When you started in the program.

[User] Well, my first exposure to the program was back in 1992, when we first began working with the Russians. I was involved working with Dick [Richard O.] Covey and Steve Nagel in the astronaut office in dealing with some of the issues that were starting to come up, and making some plans for how we would work together in the future.\n\n My first trip to Russia was in January of 1993 as a part of the Operations Working Group, to go over and start planning the rendezvous and docking of the shuttle and the Mir. Then I was involved in training for my most recent mission in September of '93, so I was out of it for a little while.\n\n But a few months after I came back from that mission, I was asked to head up the JSC Russian Project Office, which began activities in May of 1994. I worked in that position for a few months until the Phase 1 office was established, led by Tommy Holloway, and I was named as his deputy in the summer of 1994. I guess my first official activities began in about September of that year with the Team Zero meeting in Moscow and activities with the Russians.\n\n I just continued from there. I continued as the deputy for the program through August of 1995, when Tommy was named as the shuttle program director and I was the acting director for Phase 1 for a while. Then I was director by the end of that year, and I've been in that position since then.

[Assistant] You talked about your shuttle flight. Do you think that background, or the work you did in space station, prepared you for this job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was pretty easy in a lot of ways. There was a little bit of checking each other out, you know, when you first met, to see who you were and what your background was and how good you were, but that's normal in that world. But I found there to be a lot of mutual professional respect for each other and the ability to communicate about things. A lot of common experiences.

[Assistant] So was that helpful in the Russian negotiations, or did you have to kind of develop a style for negotiating with the Russians?

[User] It was helpful to a certain extent with some people, like General [Yuri] Glaskov or [Nikolai M.] Budarin or [Anatoly Y.] Solovyev, folks who were cosmonauts. But the majority of people we worked with were not cosmonauts. Their cosmonauts typically do not rise in management as frequently as ours, plus they don't have as many as we have astronauts. So there were a few people in key positions that I hit it off with real well, but I also had to learn a lot about negotiating internationally with the Russians specifically in dealing with all levels of management and all types of people. It's not unlike any similar job on this side; it's just in a different language.

[Assistant] They seemed to enjoy negotiating. Did you come to that level where you enjoy doing it?

[User] I enjoy it also, yes.

[Assistant] Who was involved in bringing Phase 1 together, if we go back to the history at whatever level it might be, the congressional level, executive level, whatever you'd like to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I came to work for NASA in 1942 [Sjoberg began working with NACA in 1942. NACA was incorporated into the newly formed NASA in 1958]. It was the year I had just gotten out of college with a bachelor’s degree in aeronautical engineering. I had planned to follow that line of work for a long time. With NASA, of course everybody who studies aeronautical engineering gets to know NASA through their technical work throughout their education. A lot of NASA reports you use, that you’re required to use. That’s the way I had heard about NASA and became familiar with their work. They were interviewing at many different colleges in 1942, the year I got out of school. And I went to work for them that way. I interviewed for them that year and I worked there until I retired.

[Assistant] What was your first job?

[User] The first job I had was at Langley Field in Virginia in the Flight Research Division. And that was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] What were you doing?

[User] I was working on stability control work of airplanes. Not long before that NASA had built up some criteria for flying qualities for airplanes. And that was a hard job in that one of our main jobs in that Flight Research Division was to set out the flying quality of a whole different bunch of types of airplanes. It was just about all of the airplanes that flew in the World War II. We were busy with those at the time.

[Assistant] And then after the war, what were you doing after the war?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first job I had was at Langley Field in Virginia in the Flight Research Division. And that was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] What were you doing?

[User] I was working on stability control work of airplanes. Not long before that NASA had built up some criteria for flying qualities for airplanes. And that was a hard job in that one of our main jobs in that Flight Research Division was to set out the flying quality of a whole different bunch of types of airplanes. It was just about all of the airplanes that flew in the World War II. We were busy with those at the time.

[Assistant] And then after the war, what were you doing after the war?

[User] Well I continued working. At the time I had a couple of interruptions, I left Langley in, I think it was, 1946. I went to back work for the Douglas Aircraft Company in Santa Monica California for a year. Then I went back to Langley working in the same division. And it was about 1947 I was asked to go out to Edwards Air Force Base to use a project in flight testing. One of the X airplanes, the D-558 Phase II. We were out there for about a year while we did that. Then I went back again to Langley.

[Assistant] And when did you leave Langley? You went back in the same division?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was working on stability control work of airplanes. Not long before that NASA had built up some criteria for flying qualities for airplanes. And that was a hard job in that one of our main jobs in that Flight Research Division was to set out the flying quality of a whole different bunch of types of airplanes. It was just about all of the airplanes that flew in the World War II. We were busy with those at the time.

[Assistant] And then after the war, what were you doing after the war?

[User] Well I continued working. At the time I had a couple of interruptions, I left Langley in, I think it was, 1946. I went to back work for the Douglas Aircraft Company in Santa Monica California for a year. Then I went back to Langley working in the same division. And it was about 1947 I was asked to go out to Edwards Air Force Base to use a project in flight testing. One of the X airplanes, the D-558 Phase II. We were out there for about a year while we did that. Then I went back again to Langley.

[Assistant] And when did you leave Langley? You went back in the same division?

[User] The same division, Flight Research work. I left Langley again, not until 1962 when the group that was formed at Langley, called the Space Task Group [STG]. That group was the nucleus of us now at the Johnson Space Center. NASA started the Johnson Space Center [originally named Manned Spacecraft Center] in Houston in 1962.

[Assistant] What were your initial jobs here? Where did you first work when you came to Houston in 1962?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same division, Flight Research work. I left Langley again, not until 1962 when the group that was formed at Langley, called the Space Task Group [STG]. That group was the nucleus of us now at the Johnson Space Center. NASA started the Johnson Space Center [originally named Manned Spacecraft Center] in Houston in 1962.

[Assistant] What were your initial jobs here? Where did you first work when you came to Houston in 1962?

[User] I had a job…I worked in…I’ll try to remember the names. I worked for the Flight Operations Division when I came to Houston. Their job of course was to do all of the planning of the space flights. And that’s where I spent most of my time in Houston working in Flight Operations. Of course, I had to. The first control center we used for manned space flight was at Cape Kennedy [Cape Canaveral, Florida later renamed Kennedy Space Center]. Then we moved to Houston. The decision was made to have that center in Houston. Well from 1942 on for several years, it was designed and implemented. Then, it came into use in 1944. I think it was in 19…The control center in Houston was first used in ‘44 or ‘45 [Houston Mission Control was first used in 1965 with Gemini III and IV]. I think it was in ’44, but I’m not absolutely sure about that. You can check on that easily. Then about…I’m trying to remember. It was the Flight Research Division, really, that controlled the flight control activity through all of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo flights. I think it was 1972 that Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] was made Director of the Center and he asked me to be his deputy. So that’s when I moved from Flight Control to _____________.

[Assistant] Going back to Mercury, when you were still stationed officially, at Langely, you did work on the Control Center in Mercury on the Cape?

[User] No, I never really worked there. I never did have a job there. I spent some time there.

[Assistant] Well, what were you doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a job…I worked in…I’ll try to remember the names. I worked for the Flight Operations Division when I came to Houston. Their job of course was to do all of the planning of the space flights. And that’s where I spent most of my time in Houston working in Flight Operations. Of course, I had to. The first control center we used for manned space flight was at Cape Kennedy [Cape Canaveral, Florida later renamed Kennedy Space Center]. Then we moved to Houston. The decision was made to have that center in Houston. Well from 1942 on for several years, it was designed and implemented. Then, it came into use in 1944. I think it was in 19…The control center in Houston was first used in ‘44 or ‘45 [Houston Mission Control was first used in 1965 with Gemini III and IV]. I think it was in ’44, but I’m not absolutely sure about that. You can check on that easily. Then about…I’m trying to remember. It was the Flight Research Division, really, that controlled the flight control activity through all of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo flights. I think it was 1972 that Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] was made Director of the Center and he asked me to be his deputy. So that’s when I moved from Flight Control to _____________.

[Assistant] Going back to Mercury, when you were still stationed officially, at Langely, you did work on the Control Center in Mercury on the Cape?

[User] No, I never really worked there. I never did have a job there. I spent some time there.

[Assistant] Well, what were you doing?

[User] Learning about space flight. You see, this was new to us too. We spent a lot of time there developing the procedures and the mission rules, all that kind of thing, that goes into each flight.

[Assistant] I also understand that in Gemini, you were a part of the Gemini Planning Organization.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never really worked there. I never did have a job there. I spent some time there.

[Assistant] Well, what were you doing?

[User] Learning about space flight. You see, this was new to us too. We spent a lot of time there developing the procedures and the mission rules, all that kind of thing, that goes into each flight.

[Assistant] I also understand that in Gemini, you were a part of the Gemini Planning Organization.

[User] Yes. I worked from Gemini 2 through all of the flights. It was a busy time.

[Assistant] What do you remember about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learning about space flight. You see, this was new to us too. We spent a lot of time there developing the procedures and the mission rules, all that kind of thing, that goes into each flight.

[Assistant] I also understand that in Gemini, you were a part of the Gemini Planning Organization.

[User] Yes. I worked from Gemini 2 through all of the flights. It was a busy time.

[Assistant] What do you remember about that?

[User] What I remember most about it were the people involved. A bunch I thought were just outstanding people. Chris Kraft was probably the most outstanding. Of course, Max [Maxime A. Faget] did an awful lot of work on the space craft in those days getting central ideas. That was very interesting, very satisfying work.

[Assistant] Any particular missions stand out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I worked from Gemini 2 through all of the flights. It was a busy time.

[Assistant] What do you remember about that?

[User] What I remember most about it were the people involved. A bunch I thought were just outstanding people. Chris Kraft was probably the most outstanding. Of course, Max [Maxime A. Faget] did an awful lot of work on the space craft in those days getting central ideas. That was very interesting, very satisfying work.

[Assistant] Any particular missions stand out?

[User] The Gemini program’s most outstanding mission…well, they were all very interesting. There were new things on every flight. Should have written them down then because I’m awfully confused now.

[Assistant] What do you see as the major accomplishments that came out of the Gemini Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I remember most about it were the people involved. A bunch I thought were just outstanding people. Chris Kraft was probably the most outstanding. Of course, Max [Maxime A. Faget] did an awful lot of work on the space craft in those days getting central ideas. That was very interesting, very satisfying work.

[Assistant] Any particular missions stand out?

[User] The Gemini program’s most outstanding mission…well, they were all very interesting. There were new things on every flight. Should have written them down then because I’m awfully confused now.

[Assistant] What do you see as the major accomplishments that came out of the Gemini Program?

[User] The experience of manned space flight and how to operate. How they can be designed. I don’t think we could have gone to the moon without it, without that background.

[Assistant] As you transitioned from Gemini to Apollo, how do you see that flight operations changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Gemini program’s most outstanding mission…well, they were all very interesting. There were new things on every flight. Should have written them down then because I’m awfully confused now.

[Assistant] What do you see as the major accomplishments that came out of the Gemini Program?

[User] The experience of manned space flight and how to operate. How they can be designed. I don’t think we could have gone to the moon without it, without that background.

[Assistant] As you transitioned from Gemini to Apollo, how do you see that flight operations changed?

[User] I don’t think there were a great deal of changes in flight operations. I think what we learned from Gemini we applied for Apollo, it was a good background for that. But, I didn’t see any changes. There were a lot of new things to work on from Gemini to Apollo because of the distances involved. After all, on Gemini, we were always on earth orbit so you could return relatively quickly. Once you commit to a lunar flight there are only so many days before you can get back to earth. That was mostly with planning the flights and so on.

[Assistant] After the early flights the decision was made to send Apollo 8 to the moon. Were you surprised by that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The experience of manned space flight and how to operate. How they can be designed. I don’t think we could have gone to the moon without it, without that background.

[Assistant] As you transitioned from Gemini to Apollo, how do you see that flight operations changed?

[User] I don’t think there were a great deal of changes in flight operations. I think what we learned from Gemini we applied for Apollo, it was a good background for that. But, I didn’t see any changes. There were a lot of new things to work on from Gemini to Apollo because of the distances involved. After all, on Gemini, we were always on earth orbit so you could return relatively quickly. Once you commit to a lunar flight there are only so many days before you can get back to earth. That was mostly with planning the flights and so on.

[Assistant] After the early flights the decision was made to send Apollo 8 to the moon. Were you surprised by that decision?

[User] No. Not nearly as surprised as the decision being made shortly after. One of the early Apollo flights [actually Alan B. Shepard's\n\n Freedom 7\n\n Mercury flight in 1961] it was, Mr. [President John F.] Kennedy announced that we were going to the moon. That was a lot more surprising.

[Assistant] How was that news received? Let’s talk about that for a second.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think there were a great deal of changes in flight operations. I think what we learned from Gemini we applied for Apollo, it was a good background for that. But, I didn’t see any changes. There were a lot of new things to work on from Gemini to Apollo because of the distances involved. After all, on Gemini, we were always on earth orbit so you could return relatively quickly. Once you commit to a lunar flight there are only so many days before you can get back to earth. That was mostly with planning the flights and so on.

[Assistant] After the early flights the decision was made to send Apollo 8 to the moon. Were you surprised by that decision?

[User] No. Not nearly as surprised as the decision being made shortly after. One of the early Apollo flights [actually Alan B. Shepard's\n\n Freedom 7\n\n Mercury flight in 1961] it was, Mr. [President John F.] Kennedy announced that we were going to the moon. That was a lot more surprising.

[Assistant] How was that news received? Let’s talk about that for a second.

[User] I think all of us were floored. It was such a change, such a challenge. It was such a surprise.

[Assistant] Did your team think you could accomplish it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Not nearly as surprised as the decision being made shortly after. One of the early Apollo flights [actually Alan B. Shepard's\n\n Freedom 7\n\n Mercury flight in 1961] it was, Mr. [President John F.] Kennedy announced that we were going to the moon. That was a lot more surprising.

[Assistant] How was that news received? Let’s talk about that for a second.

[User] I think all of us were floored. It was such a change, such a challenge. It was such a surprise.

[Assistant] Did your team think you could accomplish it?

[User] Well after, I suppose, after working for a couple of years, you’re in a lot better position to judge. Most people thought at that time they could just work to get it done. I don’t think that the immediate reaction was “That’s good, we can go do it.” The more you do, the more you’ve got confidence in something like that because you learn how to do things. You don’t get caught and slow down.

[Assistant] How do you see, did you see any changes in program management structure and interactions between centers as programs developed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think all of us were floored. It was such a change, such a challenge. It was such a surprise.

[Assistant] Did your team think you could accomplish it?

[User] Well after, I suppose, after working for a couple of years, you’re in a lot better position to judge. Most people thought at that time they could just work to get it done. I don’t think that the immediate reaction was “That’s good, we can go do it.” The more you do, the more you’ve got confidence in something like that because you learn how to do things. You don’t get caught and slow down.

[Assistant] How do you see, did you see any changes in program management structure and interactions between centers as programs developed?

[User] Could you repeat that please?

[Assistant] As the programs moved from Kennedy to what is now Johnson Space Center and became much larger did you see other changes besides engineering changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well after, I suppose, after working for a couple of years, you’re in a lot better position to judge. Most people thought at that time they could just work to get it done. I don’t think that the immediate reaction was “That’s good, we can go do it.” The more you do, the more you’ve got confidence in something like that because you learn how to do things. You don’t get caught and slow down.

[Assistant] How do you see, did you see any changes in program management structure and interactions between centers as programs developed?

[User] Could you repeat that please?

[Assistant] As the programs moved from Kennedy to what is now Johnson Space Center and became much larger did you see other changes besides engineering changes?

[User] Oh yes. The program became a lot broader in terms of public interest. Education. Certainly in the early days of the space program had a big effect on technical education and became a lot more, it got a lot higher priority, I think, at most of the technical schools around the country. I think more people became interested in technical subjects. It was a lot of priority on that because…as for me, the only aspect would be the mission associated with space flight. The public affairs associated with it, all these changed greatly. Nothing was the same anymore.

[Assistant] What would be some examples? What are some examples of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Could you repeat that please?

[Assistant] As the programs moved from Kennedy to what is now Johnson Space Center and became much larger did you see other changes besides engineering changes?

[User] Oh yes. The program became a lot broader in terms of public interest. Education. Certainly in the early days of the space program had a big effect on technical education and became a lot more, it got a lot higher priority, I think, at most of the technical schools around the country. I think more people became interested in technical subjects. It was a lot of priority on that because…as for me, the only aspect would be the mission associated with space flight. The public affairs associated with it, all these changed greatly. Nothing was the same anymore.

[Assistant] What would be some examples? What are some examples of that?

[User] I gave you one—education. Certainly, you can see that nobody paid any attention to space medicine starting out in the program but now it has a lot of attention. It had something to do with, I’m sure, a big influence on the computer industry that was getting going at that time. There were many others that you can think of that way.

[Assistant] What were the differences in flight operations in the Gemini and Apollo era when the vast computing powers that these machines give us were not available?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. The program became a lot broader in terms of public interest. Education. Certainly in the early days of the space program had a big effect on technical education and became a lot more, it got a lot higher priority, I think, at most of the technical schools around the country. I think more people became interested in technical subjects. It was a lot of priority on that because…as for me, the only aspect would be the mission associated with space flight. The public affairs associated with it, all these changed greatly. Nothing was the same anymore.

[Assistant] What would be some examples? What are some examples of that?

[User] I gave you one—education. Certainly, you can see that nobody paid any attention to space medicine starting out in the program but now it has a lot of attention. It had something to do with, I’m sure, a big influence on the computer industry that was getting going at that time. There were many others that you can think of that way.

[Assistant] What were the differences in flight operations in the Gemini and Apollo era when the vast computing powers that these machines give us were not available?

[User] Would you repeat that please?

[Assistant] Sure. I mean, you can’t find a person today that barely knows what a slide rule is. We didn’t have the big computers in those days that could perform all of these calculations. Could you just describe how the operations were accomplished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I gave you one—education. Certainly, you can see that nobody paid any attention to space medicine starting out in the program but now it has a lot of attention. It had something to do with, I’m sure, a big influence on the computer industry that was getting going at that time. There were many others that you can think of that way.

[Assistant] What were the differences in flight operations in the Gemini and Apollo era when the vast computing powers that these machines give us were not available?

[User] Would you repeat that please?

[Assistant] Sure. I mean, you can’t find a person today that barely knows what a slide rule is. We didn’t have the big computers in those days that could perform all of these calculations. Could you just describe how the operations were accomplished?

[User] That’s a good question. I think one thing that, it took a lot more people to develop a program for the computers and so on, and do a lot more testing. That’s a good question. I’d probably have to find a computer expert to talk to.

[Assistant] As the political climate changed during the Apollo missions and Apollo became less important apparently to the nation, was that visible to you working in the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Would you repeat that please?

[Assistant] Sure. I mean, you can’t find a person today that barely knows what a slide rule is. We didn’t have the big computers in those days that could perform all of these calculations. Could you just describe how the operations were accomplished?

[User] That’s a good question. I think one thing that, it took a lot more people to develop a program for the computers and so on, and do a lot more testing. That’s a good question. I’d probably have to find a computer expert to talk to.

[Assistant] As the political climate changed during the Apollo missions and Apollo became less important apparently to the nation, was that visible to you working in the program?

[User] Well, sure it was. Because it affected your money and what you could do, what you couldn’t do. Because really, in the Apollo program every year at budget time, in the latter years of Apollo, it was a real rat race trying to figure out how you were going to get things done without enough money. At the end of it, it was quite dismal that way.

[Assistant]
You said when Dr. Kraft became head of the center and he asked you to be his deputy, it was one of those times, wasn’t it?

Well, it was…the last few years of the Apollo program, I think it was in 1971 or ‘72, well things were good then. It wasn’t many years after that, that money became scarce.

By that time you were in the program, you had been cut off as the program manager?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a good question. I think one thing that, it took a lot more people to develop a program for the computers and so on, and do a lot more testing. That’s a good question. I’d probably have to find a computer expert to talk to.

[Assistant] As the political climate changed during the Apollo missions and Apollo became less important apparently to the nation, was that visible to you working in the program?

[User] Well, sure it was. Because it affected your money and what you could do, what you couldn’t do. Because really, in the Apollo program every year at budget time, in the latter years of Apollo, it was a real rat race trying to figure out how you were going to get things done without enough money. At the end of it, it was quite dismal that way.

[Assistant]
You said when Dr. Kraft became head of the center and he asked you to be his deputy, it was one of those times, wasn’t it?

Well, it was…the last few years of the Apollo program, I think it was in 1971 or ‘72, well things were good then. It wasn’t many years after that, that money became scarce.

By that time you were in the program, you had been cut off as the program manager?

[User] Yes, I had been working for Dr. Kraft at that time. Yes.

[Assistant] What did Dr. Kraft and you focus on during those first years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had been working for Dr. Kraft at that time. Yes.

[Assistant] What did Dr. Kraft and you focus on during those first years?

[User] Well we just continued the Apollo program. It was pretty well laid out at that time. Continued pretty much on the path I think it was going for a while.

[Assistant] After that?

[User] Oh, then? It was the last Apollo flight.

[Assistant] Nineteen seventy…I think if you consider ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] that was 1975.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well we just continued the Apollo program. It was pretty well laid out at that time. Continued pretty much on the path I think it was going for a while.

[Assistant] After that?

[User] Oh, then? It was the last Apollo flight.

[Assistant] Nineteen seventy…I think if you consider ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] that was 1975.

[User] Well, we did one for the Skylab program. When was that? About’76 or ’77? ’78, maybe [The Skylab flights were in 1973-1974]. That was something different because it was a long duration associated with it.

[Assistant] In Skylab, were you involved in the decision to go with the dry workshop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, then? It was the last Apollo flight.

[Assistant] Nineteen seventy…I think if you consider ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] that was 1975.

[User] Well, we did one for the Skylab program. When was that? About’76 or ’77? ’78, maybe [The Skylab flights were in 1973-1974]. That was something different because it was a long duration associated with it.

[Assistant] In Skylab, were you involved in the decision to go with the dry workshop?

[User] If I wasn’t, I should’ve been. I can’t remember exactly and direct…although I probably endorsed the decision when it was made. I don’t remember who would’ve done it.

[Assistant] With Space Station coming on line soon and working with Mir, this is the first time since the Skylab days that flight operations had involved long duration flights. What do you see as changes in the ways either that the Center operated or flight operations were conducted because of the long duration flights?