[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really knew next to nothing about Fiji.

[Assistant] You knew where it was?

[User] I probably could not have found it very quickly on a map.

[Assistant] That's funny. I think everybody knows Fiji from Fiji Water probably.

[User] Nowadays, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you do your training or staging?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I probably could not have found it very quickly on a map.

[Assistant] That's funny. I think everybody knows Fiji from Fiji Water probably.

[User] Nowadays, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you do your training or staging?

[User] Staging was held in San Francisco in an older hotel in the Tenderloin district. And it was just a bit over a week in early July of 1986. And most of the other people there were volunteers going to Fiji, although they actually flew in two people from Fiji who were on Peace Corps staff there. So I met the Fiji nurse who was name was Wynu Thonganili Walala, and Wynu, who was a very popular lady, gave us our first gamma globulin shots.

[Assistant] Oh, I remember that. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nowadays, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you do your training or staging?

[User] Staging was held in San Francisco in an older hotel in the Tenderloin district. And it was just a bit over a week in early July of 1986. And most of the other people there were volunteers going to Fiji, although they actually flew in two people from Fiji who were on Peace Corps staff there. So I met the Fiji nurse who was name was Wynu Thonganili Walala, and Wynu, who was a very popular lady, gave us our first gamma globulin shots.

[Assistant] Oh, I remember that. Yeah.

[User] And a couple of other people who had worked. Lau Penarth, an Indian Fijian woman who was married to an Indian man who was in the process of leaving Fiji and going to New York. But she also flew out to San Francisco and talked to us about what to expect. And we even did a few demos of how you would approach somebody if you're in a restaurant where there's very few tables. It's normal in Fiji just to share a table with other people. You just say, may I sit here? And they say, sure, come on. And so we did that kind of thing just to sort of break the ice with some Americans that weren't really used to people being that flexible.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had some Fiji food in San Francisco or where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not in San Francisco. It wasn't until the training continued once we got in country.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User]
And while we had a base in Nadi at the Nadi Hotel, after a week or ten days, we were sent in two different groups up to Ba, which is in northern Viti Levu, the main island, a very hot area. And I stayed with an Indian family, Sada and Savita and their two children, and they helped me learn a little bit of Fiji Hindi it's called. It's similar to Hindi, but it has a Fiji flavor to it. And they also taught me a little bit about how they cooked on their little kerosene stove on the floor, and made quite a few different Indian meals for me while I stayed with them, and went to a couple of Indian related events. And then finished up with Ba and went back to Nadi to the Nadi Hotel for another week or so, where we jumped out to southern part, the southeastern part of Viti Levu in Serua province.

I was sent to a small village called, a Fijian village named Vunibau. And Vunibau was right on the South Pacific Ocean. You could walk out on a beach every morning. We had Peace Corps trainers that had come from Fiji and they helped us learn the language. Fijian guys would talk Fijian, the Indian guys would, and women, would talk Hindi, Fiji Hindi to us. And we just had a good time and learned a lot and sort of crammed both languages, which turned out we didn't need that much later. But I think that having a handle on both languages really helped with the experience, knowing what you're getting into, what people are experiencing, just sort of breaking the ice and feeling a little more like a local, even though you're definitely not.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how long did your training actually last all together?

[User] So I believe the training was set to be three months.

[Assistant] Three months, OK. And what were your first impressions then after the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I believe the training was set to be three months.

[Assistant] Three months, OK. And what were your first impressions then after the training?

[User]
After the training, I was really enthusiastic. We had been pretty much kept on the western side of the island, except for Vunibau was a little over the border into the eastern side. But I think a lot of people were really interested to see Suva. Suva is the capital of Fiji. And Suva, to the best of my knowledge, is the largest city in the South Pacific, aside from Australia and New Zealand cities. So largest South Pacific city, had a lot of history, and when we finally got there we were able to spend almost five or six weeks. Once we were all given our assignments where we needed to go, I was told that I'd be going to Kadavu Island, which is Fiji's fourth largest island, to the south of Suva, about 90 kilometers way out there in the South Pacific.

So I got ready by buying a mattress, a full mattress, buying all the things, kitchen utensils, pots and pans, clothing, things that I thought I'd need, including clothespins, for doing my own wash, and was ready to go. And I found out that Peace Corps basically expected us to learn the way things are done locally. And that meant looking in the shipping section of the Fiji Times newspaper, finding when the next boat is going to Kadavu, and going down to the wharf and talking to the people and arranging your own transit on that boat.

[Assistant] So other than the initial training, how much support did you get from the Peace Corps office?

[User] We were basically given gamma globulin shots I believe every three months, and for that we would need to go to Suva. So I'd say a lot of support. Certainly they had a number we could call at any time if we had a telephone. In Kadavu, that was mostly radio telephone, so a little more difficult. But Peace Corps was really supportive in my opinion.

[Assistant] What about monetary support?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
After the training, I was really enthusiastic. We had been pretty much kept on the western side of the island, except for Vunibau was a little over the border into the eastern side. But I think a lot of people were really interested to see Suva. Suva is the capital of Fiji. And Suva, to the best of my knowledge, is the largest city in the South Pacific, aside from Australia and New Zealand cities. So largest South Pacific city, had a lot of history, and when we finally got there we were able to spend almost five or six weeks. Once we were all given our assignments where we needed to go, I was told that I'd be going to Kadavu Island, which is Fiji's fourth largest island, to the south of Suva, about 90 kilometers way out there in the South Pacific.

So I got ready by buying a mattress, a full mattress, buying all the things, kitchen utensils, pots and pans, clothing, things that I thought I'd need, including clothespins, for doing my own wash, and was ready to go. And I found out that Peace Corps basically expected us to learn the way things are done locally. And that meant looking in the shipping section of the Fiji Times newspaper, finding when the next boat is going to Kadavu, and going down to the wharf and talking to the people and arranging your own transit on that boat.

[Assistant] So other than the initial training, how much support did you get from the Peace Corps office?

[User] We were basically given gamma globulin shots I believe every three months, and for that we would need to go to Suva. So I'd say a lot of support. Certainly they had a number we could call at any time if we had a telephone. In Kadavu, that was mostly radio telephone, so a little more difficult. But Peace Corps was really supportive in my opinion.

[Assistant] What about monetary support?

[User] It was good in that we got a stipend every month and if we found housing that would cost us money, we were given a reasonable stipend for reasonable housing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you happen to recall how much that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were basically given gamma globulin shots I believe every three months, and for that we would need to go to Suva. So I'd say a lot of support. Certainly they had a number we could call at any time if we had a telephone. In Kadavu, that was mostly radio telephone, so a little more difficult. But Peace Corps was really supportive in my opinion.

[Assistant] What about monetary support?

[User] It was good in that we got a stipend every month and if we found housing that would cost us money, we were given a reasonable stipend for reasonable housing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you happen to recall how much that was?

[User] For me in Kadavu, I was living in government housing, but I was only in Kadavu from September until December of 1986. So eventually when I ended up going to the Sigatoka Hospital in early '87, I was getting $100 a month for housing.

[Assistant] OK, so that was the local per diem rate, because I recall they put some money aside for us after the service. And I'll ask you what you did with that money later. So at what point did you start your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I started the job pretty much the same week that I arrived in Kadavu, which probably would have been the last week in September 1986. I remember I booked my passage on a boat called the Land Dolly. Its crew had three Fijian men and three Indian men. It was a small inter- island freighter. And I was told that, hey, there are some people from South Africa going with you. And I thought, this is great. I've never met anybody from South Africa. It was actually a white couple who vowed that they were not going back home to South Africa until apartheid was finished.

[Assistant] Oh, boy.

[User] So when we got to Kadavu, they really wanted me to come exploring with them. And I was sort of the nerd that wanted to just, hey, I needed to get started with my project for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I said goodbye to them and they headed out over the northeast part of the island of Kadavu.

[Assistant] Hold that thought for just a moment, because you were there during a couple of coups. What was behind the coup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when we got to Kadavu, they really wanted me to come exploring with them. And I was sort of the nerd that wanted to just, hey, I needed to get started with my project for Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I said goodbye to them and they headed out over the northeast part of the island of Kadavu.

[Assistant] Hold that thought for just a moment, because you were there during a couple of coups. What was behind the coup?

[User] Well, the coups were later. But what was behind the coup was multifaceted. But I believe that now most people believe what I did at the time, and that's simply that it was an apartheid against the Indians. The Indians were at the time almost 45% of Fiji's population. These people had been in Fiji since the late 1800s. They had helped Fiji grow. They were the majority of the entrepreneurs in Fiji, the majority of the teachers in the tertiary and colleges.

[Assistant] They were the merchants and businessmen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I said goodbye to them and they headed out over the northeast part of the island of Kadavu.

[Assistant] Hold that thought for just a moment, because you were there during a couple of coups. What was behind the coup?

[User] Well, the coups were later. But what was behind the coup was multifaceted. But I believe that now most people believe what I did at the time, and that's simply that it was an apartheid against the Indians. The Indians were at the time almost 45% of Fiji's population. These people had been in Fiji since the late 1800s. They had helped Fiji grow. They were the majority of the entrepreneurs in Fiji, the majority of the teachers in the tertiary and colleges.

[Assistant] They were the merchants and businessmen.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how were you affected by the coup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the coups were later. But what was behind the coup was multifaceted. But I believe that now most people believe what I did at the time, and that's simply that it was an apartheid against the Indians. The Indians were at the time almost 45% of Fiji's population. These people had been in Fiji since the late 1800s. They had helped Fiji grow. They were the majority of the entrepreneurs in Fiji, the majority of the teachers in the tertiary and colleges.

[Assistant] They were the merchants and businessmen.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how were you affected by the coup?

[User] So I was affected in many ways. Several rather unsavory things happened to me. We can discuss that later. But I at the time was very interested in a woman that was a nurse at Sigatoka Hospital.

[Assistant] Where you were working, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how were you affected by the coup?

[User] So I was affected in many ways. Several rather unsavory things happened to me. We can discuss that later. But I at the time was very interested in a woman that was a nurse at Sigatoka Hospital.

[Assistant] Where you were working, right?

[User] Where I was every day, yes. And so I immediately was in Suva at the time, actually, I should point out, because Peace Corps had brought me in for a gamma globulin shot and my physical exam. And so it was actually that morning I went to see the contracted Fiji doctor, who was an Australian or New Zealand expatriate. I'm not sure. And she said, oh, are you going to go back? And I said, what? And she said, there was a bloody coup down there, right in Parliament, about a half a mile from where her office was located. And as soon as I got out of her thing, I went directly to the Peace Corps office and they, oh, everybody had sad faces. And this is shocking because the country has been taken over by a military government, and the newly elected prime minister, who was a Fijian man, also a doctor, a physician, had been deposed, arrested, and taken from power. And it was, it was really a shock. I really thought Fiji was going in a better, more improved direction, although we were also encouraged by Peace Corps that we should stay out of politics.

[Assistant] Well, that's for sure. But you mentioned this other gentleman was arrested. What about yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I stayed because what I was doing, I felt, still helped the people of Fiji in a tiny way and really was pretty much unaffected by that. Second reason is, frankly, I was just curious. It was exciting, although it was scary as heck.

[Assistant] Yeah, we kind of glossed over what you were actually doing on the job. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

[User] Yeah. What I was supposed to be doing was as a medical technologist, medical lab technician. Fiji School of Medicine graduated classes I believe every year. And I was supposed to have a counterpart at Sigatoka Hospital. Instead, there was a nurse who knew some basic laboratory testing, but in fact, it turned out that she really was very poorly trained and was doing things that would actually compromise some of the testing that she was doing. I remember she asked me one time, she was a native Fijian woman, and asked me one time what she thought, what I thought after, before the coup, but after the election of this guy, Timoci Bavadra, who is a Fijian man and had basically taken over after the guy who had been the Prime Minister of Fiji for about 17 years. So I told her, hey, you know, I think that it might be a good thing for Fiji. And she made a face that told me no.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] She as a Fijian did not believe that Dr. Bavadra was a good choice for Fiji. So very soon after she left and I was the only person in the lab and I learned that nobody was going to replace me. So I went on trying to look at what I could buy for the laboratory if I could get some grants. And it became immediately obvious that any grant proposals that I could write to Australia and New Zealand weren't going to fly because this country was under martial law. It had had a military coup. Australia and New Zealand were very violently staying away from Fiji politics. They didn't believe what was going on was good.

[Assistant] Wow, I'm getting shivers just hearing this. So you stayed in country. You were threatened by the authorities. They released you without charges, I understand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She as a Fijian did not believe that Dr. Bavadra was a good choice for Fiji. So very soon after she left and I was the only person in the lab and I learned that nobody was going to replace me. So I went on trying to look at what I could buy for the laboratory if I could get some grants. And it became immediately obvious that any grant proposals that I could write to Australia and New Zealand weren't going to fly because this country was under martial law. It had had a military coup. Australia and New Zealand were very violently staying away from Fiji politics. They didn't believe what was going on was good.

[Assistant] Wow, I'm getting shivers just hearing this. So you stayed in country. You were threatened by the authorities. They released you without charges, I understand.

[User] Yeah, we didn't get to that. Actually, Jack, I had come back from an incident with the family that I was staying with. The husband was basically a wife abuser, and I told him that I could not stay. So I packed up my things, called Peace Corps, took a taxi to Suva, which was the most efficient transport for the suitcases I had. And Peace Corps then gave me a choice of either teaching at the Fiji School of Medicine, which I wasn't too interested in, or working at Sigatoka Hospital in the laboratory. And I'd seen Sigatoka city when we first got to Fiji with the Peace Corps, and it was a wonderful, pretty much Indian town. Indian women in saris and salwar kameez, Fijian people intermingling happy with each other. It was paradise. It looked like paradise.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's where the international airport is.

[User] In Nadi. It's a ways from Sigatoka.

[Assistant] Oh, how far?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we didn't get to that. Actually, Jack, I had come back from an incident with the family that I was staying with. The husband was basically a wife abuser, and I told him that I could not stay. So I packed up my things, called Peace Corps, took a taxi to Suva, which was the most efficient transport for the suitcases I had. And Peace Corps then gave me a choice of either teaching at the Fiji School of Medicine, which I wasn't too interested in, or working at Sigatoka Hospital in the laboratory. And I'd seen Sigatoka city when we first got to Fiji with the Peace Corps, and it was a wonderful, pretty much Indian town. Indian women in saris and salwar kameez, Fijian people intermingling happy with each other. It was paradise. It looked like paradise.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's where the international airport is.

[User] In Nadi. It's a ways from Sigatoka.

[Assistant] Oh, how far?

[User] But it's just down on what's called the Coral Coast, and I chose to go ahead to Sigatoka Hospital. And I think it was, looking back, a really good decision. But you mentioned, Jack, that I had had some problems and, yes, I had. After I went back to Suva from the Indian family that I was living with because of their domestic violence, I had to find a new place to live in Sigatoka, and Peace Corps put me up at a place called the Crow's Nest Resort. I had a room like a tourist until I found a new place to live, which I eventually did. But while I was still living at the Crow's Nest Resort, someone saw my shortwave radio. Someone called the Fiji military and reported that I was somehow listening to news from Australia. After the coup, I should point out that both newspapers and radio stations in Fiji shut down.

[Assistant] Oh, they did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
There was nothing for several days. All you would hear if you tuned into the radio station was, we are the world, we are the people, over and over. So it was very spooky. And I think that gave me. So I really felt alone at that time. This was a time when Fiji was under martial law. A little bit later there was a curfew. You were not allowed, no one was allowed on the streets if you weren't an armed soldier after 8:00 at night. And I started realizing, my God, no newspapers, no radio. They don't want me to listen to Radio Australia on my shortwave radio, which the soldiers came to my room one day and confiscated and questioned me and actually took me to a checkpoint where they, a temporary headquarters in Sigatoka, and questioned me.

And then just as like the Fijian culture goes, after everything is OK, they made yagona, also known as grog, and we sat down with the lieutenant, Sacusa Lalinbalavu was his name. And we drank grog, four or five of us Fijians on the temporary military corps headquarters in Sigatoka. And then they offered to drive me back to my temporary room at the Crow's Nest. Peace Corps was kind of cool when Monday morning the people at the Crow's Nest Resort pointed out that there was an article on the front page of the Fiji Times about a Peace Corps volunteer arrested.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And that was not cool.

[Assistant] Were you the only one?

[User] I was the only one until I went to Suva for a couple of days. And then we realized that other Peace Corps volunteers were calling in and saying, gosh, you know, we were detained by the military, and showing up in the paper as well. So where I was initially the bad guy for a couple of days, everything changed.

[Assistant] Probably just as well they didn't have TV then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was not cool.

[Assistant] Were you the only one?

[User] I was the only one until I went to Suva for a couple of days. And then we realized that other Peace Corps volunteers were calling in and saying, gosh, you know, we were detained by the military, and showing up in the paper as well. So where I was initially the bad guy for a couple of days, everything changed.

[Assistant] Probably just as well they didn't have TV then.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. So how long did this coup go on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there really wasn't an end to the coup. But certainly the gravity of the coup and how it sank in with individual people was a long time, Jack. What I saw immediately was where on the western side of Viti Levu, the main island, the Indians and the Fijians were really good friends. They had gone to school together. They had done a lot of things together as families. And the coup eventually polarized these people. It basically, I saw a lot of racism happening. And I remember one time I went to Suva for my gamma globulin shot right after those incidents. Had a friend come running up to my door in the hotel I was staying overnight in saying, Steve, you've got to come to my father's house because they're downtown. They're beating Indians and breaking into the Indian shops.

[Assistant] Oh no.

[User] And she was terrified.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so I went to their house and stayed for a while and then made my way back to the Peace Corps office via one street where.

[Assistant] Excuse me, but what did she expect you to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she was terrified.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so I went to their house and stayed for a while and then made my way back to the Peace Corps office via one street where.

[Assistant] Excuse me, but what did she expect you to do?

[User] I think that. She was a younger woman that was the daughter of a New Zealand expatriate that I also knew. I had met him in Kadavu, met her in Kadavu, and they seemed to be pretty much in the same places from then on that I was in Fiji, just coincidentally. And so basically I think Melody just wanted some reassurance and was terrified, and it was indeed terrifying to see what I saw.

[Assistant] Some moral support then. So there wasn't anything that you actually did to intervene?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I went to their house and stayed for a while and then made my way back to the Peace Corps office via one street where.

[Assistant] Excuse me, but what did she expect you to do?

[User] I think that. She was a younger woman that was the daughter of a New Zealand expatriate that I also knew. I had met him in Kadavu, met her in Kadavu, and they seemed to be pretty much in the same places from then on that I was in Fiji, just coincidentally. And so basically I think Melody just wanted some reassurance and was terrified, and it was indeed terrifying to see what I saw.

[Assistant] Some moral support then. So there wasn't anything that you actually did to intervene?

[User] No, just be some shoulder to cry on, a friend to talk to while all the violence was happening.

[Assistant] What were your own feelings? Were you scared?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that. She was a younger woman that was the daughter of a New Zealand expatriate that I also knew. I had met him in Kadavu, met her in Kadavu, and they seemed to be pretty much in the same places from then on that I was in Fiji, just coincidentally. And so basically I think Melody just wanted some reassurance and was terrified, and it was indeed terrifying to see what I saw.

[Assistant] Some moral support then. So there wasn't anything that you actually did to intervene?

[User] No, just be some shoulder to cry on, a friend to talk to while all the violence was happening.

[Assistant] What were your own feelings? Were you scared?

[User] I tend to build a shell around myself, protective layer. And so, yes, I was terrified inside, but I was still functioning okay. Even though almost back to the Peace Corps office, I heard yelling and there were people grabbing big stones and throwing them through the glass fronts of Indian shops. It was hatred. And they were breaking, grabbing stuff, running off with it, all the windows, knocking down doors. And I remember there was a sandwich shop run by some New Zealand expatriates. They were so terrified they said, gosh, you know, we came and we don't want to stay and see this.

[Assistant] And were you concerned about your own safety then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just be some shoulder to cry on, a friend to talk to while all the violence was happening.

[Assistant] What were your own feelings? Were you scared?

[User] I tend to build a shell around myself, protective layer. And so, yes, I was terrified inside, but I was still functioning okay. Even though almost back to the Peace Corps office, I heard yelling and there were people grabbing big stones and throwing them through the glass fronts of Indian shops. It was hatred. And they were breaking, grabbing stuff, running off with it, all the windows, knocking down doors. And I remember there was a sandwich shop run by some New Zealand expatriates. They were so terrified they said, gosh, you know, we came and we don't want to stay and see this.

[Assistant] And were you concerned about your own safety then?

[User] Yes and no, because I felt at that time I had been in country for a little over a year. I had learned the languages and customs enough to feel pretty darn comfortable. This is only my own perception and my own personality how I had blended in. But yes, I was scared. But yes, I kind of felt like nothing really bad was going to happen to me. The real scare was over with.

[Assistant] Wow. So you stuck it out. And then what happened? Did you stay with the same job or same location?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes and no, because I felt at that time I had been in country for a little over a year. I had learned the languages and customs enough to feel pretty darn comfortable. This is only my own perception and my own personality how I had blended in. But yes, I was scared. But yes, I kind of felt like nothing really bad was going to happen to me. The real scare was over with.

[Assistant] Wow. So you stuck it out. And then what happened? Did you stay with the same job or same location?

[User] So I did stay with the same job. I eventually found a small place right on about 50 yards from the South Pacific Ocean, a little tin shack kind of fashioned after a Fijian bure. And I was living in that shack only for about a month and a half. At that time, a Fijian woman was really helpful to me and we started dating. And after that I had gone up to the road to hitchhike one day into town to the hospital. Usually the bus wasn't all that reliable after the coups, and people would often stop if you're just standing on the road. Hey, where are you going? And you want a ride? Sure. But this time there was an Indian man standing on the road and he saw me and he said, where are you from? And I said, oh, from America. He said, where in America? And I said, Seattle. He said, I'm from Seattle. And I thought, oh come on, don't give me that. And he grabbed at his wallet and pulled it out and showed me a Washington State driver's license.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Introduced himself as George Mansingh and he said, my gosh, you've got to come and visit my family, my son and his wife and their daughter are here.

[Assistant] And here in Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did stay with the same job. I eventually found a small place right on about 50 yards from the South Pacific Ocean, a little tin shack kind of fashioned after a Fijian bure. And I was living in that shack only for about a month and a half. At that time, a Fijian woman was really helpful to me and we started dating. And after that I had gone up to the road to hitchhike one day into town to the hospital. Usually the bus wasn't all that reliable after the coups, and people would often stop if you're just standing on the road. Hey, where are you going? And you want a ride? Sure. But this time there was an Indian man standing on the road and he saw me and he said, where are you from? And I said, oh, from America. He said, where in America? And I said, Seattle. He said, I'm from Seattle. And I thought, oh come on, don't give me that. And he grabbed at his wallet and pulled it out and showed me a Washington State driver's license.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Introduced himself as George Mansingh and he said, my gosh, you've got to come and visit my family, my son and his wife and their daughter are here.

[Assistant] And here in Fiji?

[User] Right here in Korotogo, walking distance from where I was living by the ocean there. So I arranged that weekend to go over and visit. I met Francis Singh, who was half Indian from his father and half Fijian, from the Fijian village on the east side of Viti Levu. And his wife, who was named Terry, and had a daughter named Megan. Terry was an IT professional in Silicon Valley and had met Francis, I think, in Hawaii. And a nice family.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Excuse me for interrupting. You said you were dating a Fijian girl?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Introduced himself as George Mansingh and he said, my gosh, you've got to come and visit my family, my son and his wife and their daughter are here.

[Assistant] And here in Fiji?

[User] Right here in Korotogo, walking distance from where I was living by the ocean there. So I arranged that weekend to go over and visit. I met Francis Singh, who was half Indian from his father and half Fijian, from the Fijian village on the east side of Viti Levu. And his wife, who was named Terry, and had a daughter named Megan. Terry was an IT professional in Silicon Valley and had met Francis, I think, in Hawaii. And a nice family.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Excuse me for interrupting. You said you were dating a Fijian girl?

[User] Yes. Emma and I went to movies and went out to eat and have lunch and stuff and had a pretty good relationship. Didn't move in together or anything like that.

[Assistant] Now, excuse me again. Was this your wife or your future wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right here in Korotogo, walking distance from where I was living by the ocean there. So I arranged that weekend to go over and visit. I met Francis Singh, who was half Indian from his father and half Fijian, from the Fijian village on the east side of Viti Levu. And his wife, who was named Terry, and had a daughter named Megan. Terry was an IT professional in Silicon Valley and had met Francis, I think, in Hawaii. And a nice family.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Excuse me for interrupting. You said you were dating a Fijian girl?

[User] Yes. Emma and I went to movies and went out to eat and have lunch and stuff and had a pretty good relationship. Didn't move in together or anything like that.

[Assistant] Now, excuse me again. Was this your wife or your future wife?

[User] No, this was not my future wife.

[Assistant] OK. I just wanted to clarify that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In English.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Probably less in Fijian language though. People are not really book people in Fiji. So I had been reading this book about some Nazi thing at the end of World War II, and when I got to my hotel that Peace Corps had arranged for me to go to, I think they rented out a whole floor of an inn in northwestern Washington, D.C. I just crashed out on, I was exhausted. I crashed out with jetlag on the bed and thinking about the book I had just read and asleep. I woke up hearing a very distinct German voice saying, what is this here we have? And it was a German man, an elderly man, probably in his late sixties. He was also a Peace Corps volunteer. His name was Fred Gunsberger. And Fred and I got to know each other. Got to know, in fact, that Fred had been a German soldier during World War II, and my father had been an American soldier during World War II.

[Assistant] Oh, boy.

[User] It was interesting. But the relationship between Fred Gunsberger and I also included the fact that the new Peace Corps, the Peace Corps director in Fiji, was the same woman he had been under when he was a volunteer in Botswana. Fred was leaving, he was closing his service because he had hypertension. But we went around Washington, D.C., in those few weeks that we had, just like father and son. Fred and I got to be really good friends and it wasn't until Fred was finally had decided to go back as a private individual to Botswana and live out the rest of his life.

[Assistant] To Botswana, OK. But you kind of danced around this girl back in Sigatoka.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything. Yeah. I could still visit that beach because it was only two blocks away, just down the way. But I had a much larger. [tape break]

[Assistant] So you were living in a nice house, and things were kind of exciting after the coup. Let's go back to your job then. How did things go?

[User] Well, every day I was going to Sigatoka Hospital. Every work day I was expected to show up. And I felt even though it wasn't exactly what Peace Corps thought I would be doing, I was doing something that was helpful and useful and it was allowing me to stay in Fiji and do the other things that I was doing. And of course I did have a warming relationship with this nurse named Leela, and Leela and I started dating. I thought it was interesting because right after Fiji had a second coup. The original one was in May '87. This one was in September of '87.

[Assistant] Oh, same here.

[User] Another coup. And we got a different head nurse at Sigatoka Hospital at that time, and this nurse was helping the military a lot. She even gave a lot of the old hospital beds to the military for the guys to stay in. And she, Sister Varra was her name, and she really took a dim view of my dating Leela. We didn't do anything as far as displays of affection on the job. We were both very professional. Although Leela would occasionally, I'd find Leela in the lab waiting for me to tell me something that was going on and just hospital scuttlebutt or whatever. But Sister Varra, the new head nurse at the hospital, sent Leela away from the hospital and assigned her to public health project up the Sigatoka River.

[Assistant] Because of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, every day I was going to Sigatoka Hospital. Every work day I was expected to show up. And I felt even though it wasn't exactly what Peace Corps thought I would be doing, I was doing something that was helpful and useful and it was allowing me to stay in Fiji and do the other things that I was doing. And of course I did have a warming relationship with this nurse named Leela, and Leela and I started dating. I thought it was interesting because right after Fiji had a second coup. The original one was in May '87. This one was in September of '87.

[Assistant] Oh, same here.

[User] Another coup. And we got a different head nurse at Sigatoka Hospital at that time, and this nurse was helping the military a lot. She even gave a lot of the old hospital beds to the military for the guys to stay in. And she, Sister Varra was her name, and she really took a dim view of my dating Leela. We didn't do anything as far as displays of affection on the job. We were both very professional. Although Leela would occasionally, I'd find Leela in the lab waiting for me to tell me something that was going on and just hospital scuttlebutt or whatever. But Sister Varra, the new head nurse at the hospital, sent Leela away from the hospital and assigned her to public health project up the Sigatoka River.

[Assistant] Because of you?

[User] It was apparent to both of us that she didn't want us to be together, or any idea that we were together was not happy for her. So Leela and I, we continued dating on the weekends when she was back down in the valley, Sigatoka Valley, but it was very interesting.

[Assistant] What kind of things did you do? What did you do for fun, hobbies and entertainment and all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Another coup. And we got a different head nurse at Sigatoka Hospital at that time, and this nurse was helping the military a lot. She even gave a lot of the old hospital beds to the military for the guys to stay in. And she, Sister Varra was her name, and she really took a dim view of my dating Leela. We didn't do anything as far as displays of affection on the job. We were both very professional. Although Leela would occasionally, I'd find Leela in the lab waiting for me to tell me something that was going on and just hospital scuttlebutt or whatever. But Sister Varra, the new head nurse at the hospital, sent Leela away from the hospital and assigned her to public health project up the Sigatoka River.

[Assistant] Because of you?

[User] It was apparent to both of us that she didn't want us to be together, or any idea that we were together was not happy for her. So Leela and I, we continued dating on the weekends when she was back down in the valley, Sigatoka Valley, but it was very interesting.

[Assistant] What kind of things did you do? What did you do for fun, hobbies and entertainment and all that?

[User] Well, we took a trip to Ovalau, a couple of trips to Nadi prior to that.

[Assistant] Ovalau was an offshore island?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we took a trip to Ovalau, a couple of trips to Nadi prior to that.

[Assistant] Ovalau was an offshore island?

[User] And Ovalau was a small offshore island. It was where the original government of Fiji was located before it moved to Suva.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] But Ovalau had a lot of touristy kind of stuff to do and a lot of Victorian age stuff to see and do. And people that are a little more isolated from the main populace and in the main island. So it was really charming

[Assistant] Well, you couldn't have been normal tourists since you spoke the language, understood the culture, and your now fiancée, or was she fiancée at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But Ovalau had a lot of touristy kind of stuff to do and a lot of Victorian age stuff to see and do. And people that are a little more isolated from the main populace and in the main island. So it was really charming

[Assistant] Well, you couldn't have been normal tourists since you spoke the language, understood the culture, and your now fiancée, or was she fiancée at that time?

[User] No, she wasn't yet my fiancée. That didn't happen for a few more months, but it was coming up to second year and I was going to have, my service would have been over. I was going to have to leave Fiji. And I at that point felt that there was enough of a strength in our relationship, my relationship with Leela that I really couldn't leave her alone. And at the time when I did some research, the Fiji government had what I considered kind of a sexist law in that if you're a foreign man and you come and marry somebody in Fiji, you've got to take her away from Fiji. But if you're a foreign woman and you come and marry someone in Fiji, then you can stay with that person in Fiji.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it became apparent that I was going to have to do a lot of quick thinking. And over a couple of months I made the decision to propose to Leela. And at that point she brought me home, not until that point, but at that point brought me home to a little shack that she lived in with her family. And her family consisted just of a 19 year old brother and her mother, who was widowed from a road accident her father had.

[Assistant] And were they accepting of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, she wasn't yet my fiancée. That didn't happen for a few more months, but it was coming up to second year and I was going to have, my service would have been over. I was going to have to leave Fiji. And I at that point felt that there was enough of a strength in our relationship, my relationship with Leela that I really couldn't leave her alone. And at the time when I did some research, the Fiji government had what I considered kind of a sexist law in that if you're a foreign man and you come and marry somebody in Fiji, you've got to take her away from Fiji. But if you're a foreign woman and you come and marry someone in Fiji, then you can stay with that person in Fiji.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So it became apparent that I was going to have to do a lot of quick thinking. And over a couple of months I made the decision to propose to Leela. And at that point she brought me home, not until that point, but at that point brought me home to a little shack that she lived in with her family. And her family consisted just of a 19 year old brother and her mother, who was widowed from a road accident her father had.

[Assistant] And were they accepting of you?

[User] And they were very accepting of me. It was, they were proud to have me in their home, offering me all kinds of things. I think their mom actually gave me the gold necklace that I'm wearing now.

[Assistant] Oh, nice. Well, how did your proposal go? Was it done Fiji style, whatever that is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were very accepting of me. It was, they were proud to have me in their home, offering me all kinds of things. I think their mom actually gave me the gold necklace that I'm wearing now.

[Assistant] Oh, nice. Well, how did your proposal go? Was it done Fiji style, whatever that is?

[User] Actually, I'm not sure what that would have been, so no.

[Assistant] Kava, kava.

[User] What I did was just the typical. I found a very nice ring. The duty-free stores had a wonderful selection of jewelry, and I got her an emerald and ruby and diamond engagement ring, and did the traditional down on one knee. And would you marry me?

[Assistant] Wow. So what did the wedding look like? Where was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, I'm not sure what that would have been, so no.

[Assistant] Kava, kava.

[User] What I did was just the typical. I found a very nice ring. The duty-free stores had a wonderful selection of jewelry, and I got her an emerald and ruby and diamond engagement ring, and did the traditional down on one knee. And would you marry me?

[Assistant] Wow. So what did the wedding look like? Where was it?

[User] So we decided that we'd like to have a traditional Indian wedding. Although traditional Indian weddings tend to be very long, both in Fiji and in India. And so we had the abbreviated version. It probably took about 3 hours or so. A pundit came to marry us, although in Fiji that doesn't legally make you married. So in fact, in July, a month before our marriage, we did have to, Leela and I went to Suva together, and at that point we were sharing a bed together, so that was OK. And we went to a justice of the peace and got married and came back. But in everyone else's eyes we were still not married. It was the Hindu ceremony that was going to mean everything.

[Assistant] May I ask how your family in this country felt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I did was just the typical. I found a very nice ring. The duty-free stores had a wonderful selection of jewelry, and I got her an emerald and ruby and diamond engagement ring, and did the traditional down on one knee. And would you marry me?

[Assistant] Wow. So what did the wedding look like? Where was it?

[User] So we decided that we'd like to have a traditional Indian wedding. Although traditional Indian weddings tend to be very long, both in Fiji and in India. And so we had the abbreviated version. It probably took about 3 hours or so. A pundit came to marry us, although in Fiji that doesn't legally make you married. So in fact, in July, a month before our marriage, we did have to, Leela and I went to Suva together, and at that point we were sharing a bed together, so that was OK. And we went to a justice of the peace and got married and came back. But in everyone else's eyes we were still not married. It was the Hindu ceremony that was going to mean everything.

[Assistant] May I ask how your family in this country felt?

[User] Really just supportive. My mom couldn't afford to go to Fiji and I couldn't import her there. So my father was having some health problems so he couldn't come.

[Assistant] Were they accepting of your wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we decided that we'd like to have a traditional Indian wedding. Although traditional Indian weddings tend to be very long, both in Fiji and in India. And so we had the abbreviated version. It probably took about 3 hours or so. A pundit came to marry us, although in Fiji that doesn't legally make you married. So in fact, in July, a month before our marriage, we did have to, Leela and I went to Suva together, and at that point we were sharing a bed together, so that was OK. And we went to a justice of the peace and got married and came back. But in everyone else's eyes we were still not married. It was the Hindu ceremony that was going to mean everything.

[Assistant] May I ask how your family in this country felt?

[User] Really just supportive. My mom couldn't afford to go to Fiji and I couldn't import her there. So my father was having some health problems so he couldn't come.

[Assistant] Were they accepting of your wife?

[User] As near as I can tell, yes.

[Assistant] From a distance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really just supportive. My mom couldn't afford to go to Fiji and I couldn't import her there. So my father was having some health problems so he couldn't come.

[Assistant] Were they accepting of your wife?

[User] As near as I can tell, yes.

[Assistant] From a distance.

[User] From a distance, right.

[Assistant] At what point did they meet her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From a distance, right.

[Assistant] At what point did they meet her?

[User] And my father passed away before Leela and I came back to Seattle, where he was. But my mother met Leila in Maui, where I got my first job after we left Fiji.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So that was the initial, the initial shock. And then my mom came another time when we had moved from Maui to the big island in Hawaii, in Hilo.

[Assistant] So how much longer were you in Fiji after you were married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my father passed away before Leela and I came back to Seattle, where he was. But my mother met Leila in Maui, where I got my first job after we left Fiji.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So that was the initial, the initial shock. And then my mom came another time when we had moved from Maui to the big island in Hawaii, in Hilo.

[Assistant] So how much longer were you in Fiji after you were married?

[User] So almost exactly a year.

[Assistant] A year, OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was the initial, the initial shock. And then my mom came another time when we had moved from Maui to the big island in Hawaii, in Hilo.

[Assistant] So how much longer were you in Fiji after you were married?

[User] So almost exactly a year.

[Assistant] A year, OK.

[User] So when I got married, it was pretty close to time to close service.

[Assistant] The second year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So almost exactly a year.

[Assistant] A year, OK.

[User] So when I got married, it was pretty close to time to close service.

[Assistant] The second year.

[User] Most other two-year Peace Corps volunteers that I'd gone with were closing their service, and I went to a lot of the workshops. They had some really helpful ones for writing resumes and sending cover letters that ended up in the third year for being very helpful for me. As I mentioned, I had already gotten a job in Maui at Maui Memorial Hospital in the laboratory.

[Assistant] OK. So you finished out your two years and then got a one year extension and then moved to Maui. Wow, what a story. Well, what did you do there? So, yeah, what were you doing in Maui and what are you doing now as a consequence of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when I got married, it was pretty close to time to close service.

[Assistant] The second year.

[User] Most other two-year Peace Corps volunteers that I'd gone with were closing their service, and I went to a lot of the workshops. They had some really helpful ones for writing resumes and sending cover letters that ended up in the third year for being very helpful for me. As I mentioned, I had already gotten a job in Maui at Maui Memorial Hospital in the laboratory.

[Assistant] OK. So you finished out your two years and then got a one year extension and then moved to Maui. Wow, what a story. Well, what did you do there? So, yeah, what were you doing in Maui and what are you doing now as a consequence of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, at the time, I was living in Maui with Leela, and as I said, I already had a job. So when we arrived, it was basically one of the people with the company, Clinical Labs of Hawaii, met us, bought us lunch, got us accommodations, and helped us find a place to live eventually, which was a little shack out behind a Japanese family.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps was helpful in getting you that next job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most other two-year Peace Corps volunteers that I'd gone with were closing their service, and I went to a lot of the workshops. They had some really helpful ones for writing resumes and sending cover letters that ended up in the third year for being very helpful for me. As I mentioned, I had already gotten a job in Maui at Maui Memorial Hospital in the laboratory.

[Assistant] OK. So you finished out your two years and then got a one year extension and then moved to Maui. Wow, what a story. Well, what did you do there? So, yeah, what were you doing in Maui and what are you doing now as a consequence of the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, at the time, I was living in Maui with Leela, and as I said, I already had a job. So when we arrived, it was basically one of the people with the company, Clinical Labs of Hawaii, met us, bought us lunch, got us accommodations, and helped us find a place to live eventually, which was a little shack out behind a Japanese family.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps was helpful in getting you that next job?

[User] I think that the end of service program that I had attended after two years gave me a lot of information about sending cover letters and writing a good resume and getting that going. So in that respect, yes. I thought it was interesting. A lot of the cover letters that I sent to other hospitals in Hawaii turned out all to go to Clinical Labs of Hawaii because they had the laboratories and all of the other places.

[Assistant] They're trying to pigeonhole you. And Leela, did she get a job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at the time, I was living in Maui with Leela, and as I said, I already had a job. So when we arrived, it was basically one of the people with the company, Clinical Labs of Hawaii, met us, bought us lunch, got us accommodations, and helped us find a place to live eventually, which was a little shack out behind a Japanese family.

[Assistant] Do you think the Peace Corps was helpful in getting you that next job?

[User] I think that the end of service program that I had attended after two years gave me a lot of information about sending cover letters and writing a good resume and getting that going. So in that respect, yes. I thought it was interesting. A lot of the cover letters that I sent to other hospitals in Hawaii turned out all to go to Clinical Labs of Hawaii because they had the laboratories and all of the other places.

[Assistant] They're trying to pigeonhole you. And Leela, did she get a job?

[User] And Leela was a real stubborn person. So about working, she basically, from the time she graduated nursing school, she had been in Kadavu about a year before I was sent to Kadavu. She was in Sigatoka. She was all over Fiji as a nurse. And so after I started working at Maui Memorial Hospital, I went to the personnel office or the human resources department and said, gosh, you know, I have this person that's a nurse in Fiji and do you have anything that? They gave me a thing to fill out for her and said, sure, they were really excited about it. And Leela got hired as a, not sure exactly what the title was.

[Assistant] OK, so you were husband and wife at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that the end of service program that I had attended after two years gave me a lot of information about sending cover letters and writing a good resume and getting that going. So in that respect, yes. I thought it was interesting. A lot of the cover letters that I sent to other hospitals in Hawaii turned out all to go to Clinical Labs of Hawaii because they had the laboratories and all of the other places.

[Assistant] They're trying to pigeonhole you. And Leela, did she get a job?

[User] And Leela was a real stubborn person. So about working, she basically, from the time she graduated nursing school, she had been in Kadavu about a year before I was sent to Kadavu. She was in Sigatoka. She was all over Fiji as a nurse. And so after I started working at Maui Memorial Hospital, I went to the personnel office or the human resources department and said, gosh, you know, I have this person that's a nurse in Fiji and do you have anything that? They gave me a thing to fill out for her and said, sure, they were really excited about it. And Leela got hired as a, not sure exactly what the title was.

[Assistant] OK, so you were husband and wife at that time?

[User] We were husband and wife at that. We were married in Fiji.

[Assistant] OK. Well, inclined to shift from Fiji to American culture. Did that cause any problems in the workplace working together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Leela was a real stubborn person. So about working, she basically, from the time she graduated nursing school, she had been in Kadavu about a year before I was sent to Kadavu. She was in Sigatoka. She was all over Fiji as a nurse. And so after I started working at Maui Memorial Hospital, I went to the personnel office or the human resources department and said, gosh, you know, I have this person that's a nurse in Fiji and do you have anything that? They gave me a thing to fill out for her and said, sure, they were really excited about it. And Leela got hired as a, not sure exactly what the title was.

[Assistant] OK, so you were husband and wife at that time?

[User] We were husband and wife at that. We were married in Fiji.

[Assistant] OK. Well, inclined to shift from Fiji to American culture. Did that cause any problems in the workplace working together?

[User] No, we pretty much had our own hours. Leela ended up having to work some night shift and like that. So it was a bit challenging in the beginning, but she was very proud to be working for an American wage.

[Assistant] Well, Hawaii is a very mixed culture. How were you received there as an interracial culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were husband and wife at that. We were married in Fiji.

[Assistant] OK. Well, inclined to shift from Fiji to American culture. Did that cause any problems in the workplace working together?

[User] No, we pretty much had our own hours. Leela ended up having to work some night shift and like that. So it was a bit challenging in the beginning, but she was very proud to be working for an American wage.

[Assistant] Well, Hawaii is a very mixed culture. How were you received there as an interracial culture?

[User] I'm not sure about that, Jack. I sometimes felt everything was good, but I do think there was some friction too. I think I've mentioned that Leela is an Indian that's fairly dark skinned Indian, and I think that people saw that as sometimes not a favorable thing, some of the locals. And especially when we moved to the Big Island of Hawaii, I really felt that Leela was being pigeonholed and I don't think everybody was all that accepting. And so she was really strong and making her way. She immediately was transferred to Hilo Hospital, where I was working in the laboratory.

[Assistant] Because of you, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we pretty much had our own hours. Leela ended up having to work some night shift and like that. So it was a bit challenging in the beginning, but she was very proud to be working for an American wage.

[Assistant] Well, Hawaii is a very mixed culture. How were you received there as an interracial culture?

[User] I'm not sure about that, Jack. I sometimes felt everything was good, but I do think there was some friction too. I think I've mentioned that Leela is an Indian that's fairly dark skinned Indian, and I think that people saw that as sometimes not a favorable thing, some of the locals. And especially when we moved to the Big Island of Hawaii, I really felt that Leela was being pigeonholed and I don't think everybody was all that accepting. And so she was really strong and making her way. She immediately was transferred to Hilo Hospital, where I was working in the laboratory.

[Assistant] Because of you, do you think?

[User] I don't think so, no.

[Assistant] OK. So it wasn't trying to split you up like the first situation back in Sigatoka?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure about that, Jack. I sometimes felt everything was good, but I do think there was some friction too. I think I've mentioned that Leela is an Indian that's fairly dark skinned Indian, and I think that people saw that as sometimes not a favorable thing, some of the locals. And especially when we moved to the Big Island of Hawaii, I really felt that Leela was being pigeonholed and I don't think everybody was all that accepting. And so she was really strong and making her way. She immediately was transferred to Hilo Hospital, where I was working in the laboratory.

[Assistant] Because of you, do you think?

[User] I don't think so, no.

[Assistant] OK. So it wasn't trying to split you up like the first situation back in Sigatoka?

[User] No, that was just bizarre.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, let's fast forward. Here you are in Seattle and she's working and you have, you live in a nice neighborhood. How have you been received as a mixed couple, if that's even an issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so, no.

[Assistant] OK. So it wasn't trying to split you up like the first situation back in Sigatoka?

[User] No, that was just bizarre.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, let's fast forward. Here you are in Seattle and she's working and you have, you live in a nice neighborhood. How have you been received as a mixed couple, if that's even an issue?

[User] I think pretty much it's pretty multicultural in Seattle. Seattle is always, in my opinion, been fairly, fairly multicultural.

[Assistant] So do you imagine living here for time to come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was just bizarre.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, let's fast forward. Here you are in Seattle and she's working and you have, you live in a nice neighborhood. How have you been received as a mixed couple, if that's even an issue?

[User] I think pretty much it's pretty multicultural in Seattle. Seattle is always, in my opinion, been fairly, fairly multicultural.

[Assistant] So do you imagine living here for time to come?

[User] I think so. Leela's family is here now, her mom and her brother. Her mom did pass away a couple of years ago. Her brother married in a Hindu ceremony up in North Seattle, married an Indian woman who had come from Fiji. And they're doing really well now. They have two children. They have a house bigger than ours out in Renton, which is a bit south of Seattle.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And so you don't see yourself leaving this area because she has family now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think pretty much it's pretty multicultural in Seattle. Seattle is always, in my opinion, been fairly, fairly multicultural.

[Assistant] So do you imagine living here for time to come?

[User] I think so. Leela's family is here now, her mom and her brother. Her mom did pass away a couple of years ago. Her brother married in a Hindu ceremony up in North Seattle, married an Indian woman who had come from Fiji. And they're doing really well now. They have two children. They have a house bigger than ours out in Renton, which is a bit south of Seattle.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And so you don't see yourself leaving this area because she has family now.

[User] I think that's the main reason, you picked that up right away.

[Assistant] Yeah, Fijians are very family oriented.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. Leela's family is here now, her mom and her brother. Her mom did pass away a couple of years ago. Her brother married in a Hindu ceremony up in North Seattle, married an Indian woman who had come from Fiji. And they're doing really well now. They have two children. They have a house bigger than ours out in Renton, which is a bit south of Seattle.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And so you don't see yourself leaving this area because she has family now.

[User] I think that's the main reason, you picked that up right away.

[Assistant] Yeah, Fijians are very family oriented.

[User] It's sort of an anchor, her brother and her are very close.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Fiji to visit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's sort of an anchor, her brother and her are very close.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Fiji to visit?

[User] Last time we went back to Fiji together was 2005.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that was a lot of fun. I met a couple of people, one an old friend that I had lived with, and another an old friend that was from the Peace Corps office, right on the street in Suva. Fiji is just a small place where you can be in a country of 750,000 people, but here on the main island, my gosh, how can it be? You just go to Suva, the capital, and you're walking around the street and one day there's two people that, hi, how are you doing?

[Assistant] Wow. So that was 15 years later, after they had TV. Had the country changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Last time we went back to Fiji together was 2005.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that was a lot of fun. I met a couple of people, one an old friend that I had lived with, and another an old friend that was from the Peace Corps office, right on the street in Suva. Fiji is just a small place where you can be in a country of 750,000 people, but here on the main island, my gosh, how can it be? You just go to Suva, the capital, and you're walking around the street and one day there's two people that, hi, how are you doing?

[Assistant] Wow. So that was 15 years later, after they had TV. Had the country changed?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or had you changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or had you changed?

[User] Both are very definitely true. Fiji, I think, did not positively change because of television. I mean, that Fiji did not change in a positive way. I don't want to get into all the pros and cons. And I haven't lived as a resident since my Peace Corps service ended in 1989. So I'm always sort of a visitor, and I'm a little bit reluctant to start making judgment calls just from a two week visit.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah.

[User] And what Leela's relatives, she has a lot of aunts and uncles in Fiji that she stays in contact with, but and her brother Shadawan also has a lot of old friends. So I get reports all the time. But firsthand, I don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about culture shock? Did you go through any culture shock either in Hawaii or coming back here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both are very definitely true. Fiji, I think, did not positively change because of television. I mean, that Fiji did not change in a positive way. I don't want to get into all the pros and cons. And I haven't lived as a resident since my Peace Corps service ended in 1989. So I'm always sort of a visitor, and I'm a little bit reluctant to start making judgment calls just from a two week visit.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah.

[User] And what Leela's relatives, she has a lot of aunts and uncles in Fiji that she stays in contact with, but and her brother Shadawan also has a lot of old friends. So I get reports all the time. But firsthand, I don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about culture shock? Did you go through any culture shock either in Hawaii or coming back here?

[User] I don't believe that I did. And I think Leela also is in a lot of ways like me, that she's a strong person and knows what she wants to do. And I think she was a real trooper about going through stuff pretty well. There were some weird, possibly racist issues in Hawaii and in America, but I think we overcame them fairly fast.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, just a difference in material issues, everything from cars to supermarkets. Did that have any effect on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 38 or 39.

[Assistant] OK. Yeah. So a little bit more mature. And what are you doing these days?

[User] So these days, I had been working as medical technologist with a company that basically ate up the old job that I had at Swedish Hospital. They came in when I was gone in Fiji and Hawaii and, and there were a lot of mergers in laboratories all over. It was interesting to me that when I went back to the very same person that I had worked with at Swedish Hospital in the laboratory, that person interviewed me for a new job when Leela and I had just gotten from Hawaii to Seattle. And he said, well, what's to, how do we know that you're not going to just go off and join Peace Corps again? He just was really oblivious to the fact that, you know, I'd done my service. I was back as a regular person. I had given four weeks’ notice, but he thought that he didn't want me back. He didn't want me to work with their team of people anymore.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I found alternate situation at Pacific Medical Center here.

[Assistant] And afraid of losing you. OK. Well, I want to ask you. So to try and summarize, um, we've talked about what you did before Peace Corps, what you did during the Peace Corps, what you're doing now and subsequent to Peace Corps. What do you consider to be your biggest accomplishments or successes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I found alternate situation at Pacific Medical Center here.

[Assistant] And afraid of losing you. OK. Well, I want to ask you. So to try and summarize, um, we've talked about what you did before Peace Corps, what you did during the Peace Corps, what you're doing now and subsequent to Peace Corps. What do you consider to be your biggest accomplishments or successes?

[User] Really, I think that it was a lot easier to have huge accomplishments when I was in Fiji. So maybe turning the slate a little bit. Having just had our 31st wedding anniversary, August 20th.

[Assistant] Congratulations.

[User] A few weeks ago. That's certainly accomplishment.

[Assistant] Yeah, I'd say so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really, I think that it was a lot easier to have huge accomplishments when I was in Fiji. So maybe turning the slate a little bit. Having just had our 31st wedding anniversary, August 20th.

[Assistant] Congratulations.

[User] A few weeks ago. That's certainly accomplishment.

[Assistant] Yeah, I'd say so.

[User] We've definitely going through a lot of ups and downs. But we have stayed together and her brother has stayed geographically close to where we are.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, it sounds like you had a lot of relationships in Fiji, I mean, friends and associates and so on. You mixed with a lot of people, Fijians and Indians. What more can you say about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've definitely going through a lot of ups and downs. But we have stayed together and her brother has stayed geographically close to where we are.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, it sounds like you had a lot of relationships in Fiji, I mean, friends and associates and so on. You mixed with a lot of people, Fijians and Indians. What more can you say about that?

[User]
Well, I think that all in all, learning to live in a different culture. Actually Fiji has two very distinctly different cultures, the Fijian culture, not to be confused with the Fiji Indians, the people whose ancestors had been brought to Fiji to work the cane fields and offered if they worked for ten years they could stay and become citizens and become Fiji citizens. So they. So I think it was really valuable not only to live in the Indian community and have Indian friends, but to live in the Fijian community and have Fijian friends and see the differences and the similarities in both cultures. And to have lived in both of those cultures was just a very, it's a precious memory and it's something that sometimes I can revive a bit if I go back and I have friends still there.

But it's really helped in a multicultural situation and a multicultural workplace to be able to relate to other people from other parts of the world. I think that it takes the sharp edge off my being an American, quote unquote. I think it's a lot easier to mix with the woman that I worked with as a med tech from Hong Kong and the folks that I knew from Nigeria that were med techs.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] And it just made everything easier. I wasn't acting like an American that knew all about their country, that I was pushy and I was instead culturally aware that, hey, these people live differently than you do, Steve. And you need to find out a little more about their culture, because even though they're trying to act as American as they can to fit in, they still have something that's very fundamental and very precious to them, and that's their own culture.

[Assistant] Well, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it just made everything easier. I wasn't acting like an American that knew all about their country, that I was pushy and I was instead culturally aware that, hey, these people live differently than you do, Steve. And you need to find out a little more about their culture, because even though they're trying to act as American as they can to fit in, they still have something that's very fundamental and very precious to them, and that's their own culture.

[Assistant] Well, that's right.

[User] So respect it.

[Assistant] Yeah. And Fiji is communal as well. So very sharing and caring people. Well, we've touched on the three goals of the Peace Corps, which is a technology transfer, and it sounds like you were successful in that department. You went over knowing very little about Fiji and you came back with a great understanding and a wife. That's wonderful. So how do you share all that experience with your neighbors or your colleagues or whomever you might interact on a daily basis?

[User] Well, on a daily basis, it's not really an issue. And I think I've found that when you start talking about your Peace Corps experience, it's often a sort of a foreign concept to a lot of people. They, most people are not really aware that Peace Corps exists or if they are, they've maybe heard some good or bad stories. I remember even in Fiji, I was asked, did your government make you come here? They didn't know that, no, I had given up a good job to go and help people in Fiji in any way that I could. And here in America, again, it's just a foreign concept and people get bored really fast hearing about, yeah, you were in Fiji. So what? It's interesting, in the last few years I've noticed that the awareness of Fiji as a resort location or tourist location has really gone up, and certainly Fiji Water as well.

[Assistant] I was going to say thanks to Fiji Water, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So respect it.

[Assistant] Yeah. And Fiji is communal as well. So very sharing and caring people. Well, we've touched on the three goals of the Peace Corps, which is a technology transfer, and it sounds like you were successful in that department. You went over knowing very little about Fiji and you came back with a great understanding and a wife. That's wonderful. So how do you share all that experience with your neighbors or your colleagues or whomever you might interact on a daily basis?

[User] Well, on a daily basis, it's not really an issue. And I think I've found that when you start talking about your Peace Corps experience, it's often a sort of a foreign concept to a lot of people. They, most people are not really aware that Peace Corps exists or if they are, they've maybe heard some good or bad stories. I remember even in Fiji, I was asked, did your government make you come here? They didn't know that, no, I had given up a good job to go and help people in Fiji in any way that I could. And here in America, again, it's just a foreign concept and people get bored really fast hearing about, yeah, you were in Fiji. So what? It's interesting, in the last few years I've noticed that the awareness of Fiji as a resort location or tourist location has really gone up, and certainly Fiji Water as well.

[Assistant] I was going to say thanks to Fiji Water, huh?

[User] Very possibly. I'm not sure where the source is that they talk about on the bottle, but.

[Assistant] It's a nice picture of a waterfall.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, on a daily basis, it's not really an issue. And I think I've found that when you start talking about your Peace Corps experience, it's often a sort of a foreign concept to a lot of people. They, most people are not really aware that Peace Corps exists or if they are, they've maybe heard some good or bad stories. I remember even in Fiji, I was asked, did your government make you come here? They didn't know that, no, I had given up a good job to go and help people in Fiji in any way that I could. And here in America, again, it's just a foreign concept and people get bored really fast hearing about, yeah, you were in Fiji. So what? It's interesting, in the last few years I've noticed that the awareness of Fiji as a resort location or tourist location has really gone up, and certainly Fiji Water as well.

[Assistant] I was going to say thanks to Fiji Water, huh?

[User] Very possibly. I'm not sure where the source is that they talk about on the bottle, but.

[Assistant] It's a nice picture of a waterfall.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, let me ask you one more question that I've been pondering. I posed this last night to give you time to think about it. What good did we do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What good did we do as Peace Corps Fiji?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think a lot, a lot of people in Fiji would tell me, you know, I used to have three different Peace Corps teachers, they'd call them Peace Corpses.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And a lot of people had Peace Corps influence in their elementary school and their high school. Even Leela, my wife, the other day I was talking about this interview upcoming and she said, yeah, I had two. My chemistry teacher was a Peace Corps volunteer, and I think it was my language, English teacher.

[Assistant] Wow, that's significant. I'm sorry that she's not here. I would have loved to have met her. And I will come back one day and see her or come to the next reunion. Steve, is there anything else you'd like to add? This has been marvelous talking to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think a lot, a lot of people in Fiji would tell me, you know, I used to have three different Peace Corps teachers, they'd call them Peace Corpses.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And a lot of people had Peace Corps influence in their elementary school and their high school. Even Leela, my wife, the other day I was talking about this interview upcoming and she said, yeah, I had two. My chemistry teacher was a Peace Corps volunteer, and I think it was my language, English teacher.

[Assistant] Wow, that's significant. I'm sorry that she's not here. I would have loved to have met her. And I will come back one day and see her or come to the next reunion. Steve, is there anything else you'd like to add? This has been marvelous talking to you.

[User] No, Jack, thanks a lot. I think the main thing is that marking time. It's been a while and Fiji has changed a lot. And when I was in Fiji we celebrated the 25th anniversary of the Peace Corps and I just noticed online that Fiji celebrated its 50th anniversary.

[Assistant] Fifty now, wow, that's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And a lot of people had Peace Corps influence in their elementary school and their high school. Even Leela, my wife, the other day I was talking about this interview upcoming and she said, yeah, I had two. My chemistry teacher was a Peace Corps volunteer, and I think it was my language, English teacher.

[Assistant] Wow, that's significant. I'm sorry that she's not here. I would have loved to have met her. And I will come back one day and see her or come to the next reunion. Steve, is there anything else you'd like to add? This has been marvelous talking to you.

[User] No, Jack, thanks a lot. I think the main thing is that marking time. It's been a while and Fiji has changed a lot. And when I was in Fiji we celebrated the 25th anniversary of the Peace Corps and I just noticed online that Fiji celebrated its 50th anniversary.

[Assistant] Fifty now, wow, that's great.

[User] So.

[Assistant] All right. Well, Steve, thank you very much for your time and all the information and for your service, of course. And please give my regards to your wife.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No problem. Thanks for pushing it up a little bit.

[Assistant] Oh, it’s our pleasure. We’re just happy you’re willing to come in and talk to us.\n\n Last time, we talked about your flight, STS-51A, and one of the things we didn’t cover was the fact that you were the first mother in space, and that seemed to be a big deal, at least for the news media. What did you think about all that coverage and the interest in being that first mother in space?

[User] Well, the whole evolution of everything was kind of a very busy time, because here I was, a new mother. Did we talk about that last time, that I was a new mother and I was training for my flight and was a CapCom [Capsule Communicator]? I think we talked about that last time.

[Assistant] Yes, we talked about those things.

[User] That was a very, very busy year. I didn’t really expect people to be all that interested, but I guess they’re always looking for something novel with each Shuttle flight, so I guess that was it. I guess what I found the most interesting was after I got back. There’s an organization in New York City [New York] that gives out Mother of the Year Awards, and I received it that following year after I flew. I guess Susan Lucci was in that group, and there was a governor of Kentucky who was a lady. I don’t remember her name. I just thought it was funny that I got an award for being Mother of the Year when I was really, really busy, and then when I took a seven-year leave of absence, I didn’t get it so I found that always kind of ironic. It was neat. My daughter, who just got married on April second, she always tells me I owe it all to her.

[Assistant] Isn’t that nice of her? That’s too funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the whole evolution of everything was kind of a very busy time, because here I was, a new mother. Did we talk about that last time, that I was a new mother and I was training for my flight and was a CapCom [Capsule Communicator]? I think we talked about that last time.

[Assistant] Yes, we talked about those things.

[User] That was a very, very busy year. I didn’t really expect people to be all that interested, but I guess they’re always looking for something novel with each Shuttle flight, so I guess that was it. I guess what I found the most interesting was after I got back. There’s an organization in New York City [New York] that gives out Mother of the Year Awards, and I received it that following year after I flew. I guess Susan Lucci was in that group, and there was a governor of Kentucky who was a lady. I don’t remember her name. I just thought it was funny that I got an award for being Mother of the Year when I was really, really busy, and then when I took a seven-year leave of absence, I didn’t get it so I found that always kind of ironic. It was neat. My daughter, who just got married on April second, she always tells me I owe it all to her.

[Assistant] Isn’t that nice of her? That’s too funny.

[User] So it was interesting, but I guess the strangest question I was asked was either at my preflight press conference or I think we actually had a press conference in flight, and one European reporter asked me how being the operator of an arm made me a better mother. I thought that was kind of a weird question.

[Assistant] I think I read you’re the Astromom at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a very, very busy year. I didn’t really expect people to be all that interested, but I guess they’re always looking for something novel with each Shuttle flight, so I guess that was it. I guess what I found the most interesting was after I got back. There’s an organization in New York City [New York] that gives out Mother of the Year Awards, and I received it that following year after I flew. I guess Susan Lucci was in that group, and there was a governor of Kentucky who was a lady. I don’t remember her name. I just thought it was funny that I got an award for being Mother of the Year when I was really, really busy, and then when I took a seven-year leave of absence, I didn’t get it so I found that always kind of ironic. It was neat. My daughter, who just got married on April second, she always tells me I owe it all to her.

[Assistant] Isn’t that nice of her? That’s too funny.

[User] So it was interesting, but I guess the strangest question I was asked was either at my preflight press conference or I think we actually had a press conference in flight, and one European reporter asked me how being the operator of an arm made me a better mother. I thought that was kind of a weird question.

[Assistant] I think I read you’re the Astromom at that point.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So, tell us about the next mission you were assigned to, which I think was supposed to be commanded by Mike [Michael L.] Coats, STS-61H.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember Judy [Judith A.] Resnik came up with these bright pink bumper stickers that we had made that said, “A Woman’s Place is in the Cockpit,” but we wouldn’t need those anymore, I don’t think.

[Assistant] Now that you have women in the cockpit.\n\n I did want to ask you to talk a little bit about Judy Resnik. I know that you had mentioned you were friends before you came to the office.

[User] Well, we didn’t really know each other. She was in the interview group with my husband, who didn’t get selected on that go-around in, I guess, about November. So I actually knew her then through him. Then as it got closer to the announcement, both of us were getting calls from reporters, so we started to realize that something was probably up. And I think the night before when we were expecting the announcement to be issued, we went out to dinner together. The night, when the announcement was made, Bill took us both out to dinner too. Then we’ve just been friends over the years. It was neat sharing that night before and that night after with her.

[Assistant] She’s seems to be a very special person. When people talk about her, a lot of people say she was their best friend, so she obviously had a lot of friends in the office.

[User] Yes, she was great. I was actually good friends with her half-sister, who was an interior decorator who helped me get some stuff for my house and went shopping with me up in Dallas [Texas], so I was really good friends with her, her half-sister.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about an incident that I read about in the newspaper. I was just curious about your insight. There was an interview done with Judy, and basically the headline was something like “Women’s Lib Didn’t Get Astronaut Where She Was.” Basically someone had asked her did she think that the feminist or women’s liberation movements led to her selection, and she said she thought it was her experiences. So I was curious, from your perspective as a female astronaut, do you think it was your experience or a combination of both?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure thing. My pleasure.

[Assistant] We know that you just got back a few weeks ago. How are you feeling?

[User] It's going to be six weeks on Friday. I'm feeling very good, actually. I feel remarkably normal for somebody who's spent 141 days in space. I was a little surprised at the readaptation with gravity was a lot easier than I'd anticipated it to be. I thought there'd be weeks of ongoing problems. I have a few inevitable aches and pains, but otherwise everything's fine. I'm out running and enjoying the lovely weather here.

[Assistant] Getting used to the heat?

[User] Yes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you'll have to give us your secret. I don't think any of us are used to the heat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's going to be six weeks on Friday. I'm feeling very good, actually. I feel remarkably normal for somebody who's spent 141 days in space. I was a little surprised at the readaptation with gravity was a lot easier than I'd anticipated it to be. I thought there'd be weeks of ongoing problems. I have a few inevitable aches and pains, but otherwise everything's fine. I'm out running and enjoying the lovely weather here.

[Assistant] Getting used to the heat?

[User] Yes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you'll have to give us your secret. I don't think any of us are used to the heat.

[User] Well, you know, I spent 141 days in a confined space at a constant temperature. It is nice to get outdoors and in the sunshine and just feel it. It really feels good.

[Assistant] Is that one of the benefits of coming home, to be able to be outside.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you'll have to give us your secret. I don't think any of us are used to the heat.

[User] Well, you know, I spent 141 days in a confined space at a constant temperature. It is nice to get outdoors and in the sunshine and just feel it. It really feels good.

[Assistant] Is that one of the benefits of coming home, to be able to be outside.

[User] Oh, yes. I'd been looking forward to that, too, having the fresh air and being outside, yes. It's a nice feeling.

[Assistant] I know you've talked about being up there and having an unnatural environment that does become the norm. Did it take you long to adapt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, I spent 141 days in a confined space at a constant temperature. It is nice to get outdoors and in the sunshine and just feel it. It really feels good.

[Assistant] Is that one of the benefits of coming home, to be able to be outside.

[User] Oh, yes. I'd been looking forward to that, too, having the fresh air and being outside, yes. It's a nice feeling.

[Assistant] I know you've talked about being up there and having an unnatural environment that does become the norm. Did it take you long to adapt?

[User] No. One of the things that surprised me was how quickly I could adapt to that environment. Now, true, it was my second flight. My first flight was two years ago, and it was only ten days. I was surprised, because on this flight I adapted to being at zero gravity psychologically very quickly, and I very quickly learned to function and to accept that environment as the normal environment, and it felt natural. That was what was so strange, is an environment which is fundamentally so unnatural could so quickly feel natural. It was an interesting experience to go through that, and as the flight progressed, of course, you become more blase about it because you have it all the time, and every now and again you have these little reality checks with, "Wait a minute. I'm weightless. I can float. That's the way I move," and you just have to remind yourself that, yes, you are weightless. Of course, another form of reality check was when you would go and look out the window and have this spectacular view, just to remind you of where you really were. It was a great experience.

[Assistant] Any way to describe what you saw out the window?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I'd been looking forward to that, too, having the fresh air and being outside, yes. It's a nice feeling.

[Assistant] I know you've talked about being up there and having an unnatural environment that does become the norm. Did it take you long to adapt?

[User] No. One of the things that surprised me was how quickly I could adapt to that environment. Now, true, it was my second flight. My first flight was two years ago, and it was only ten days. I was surprised, because on this flight I adapted to being at zero gravity psychologically very quickly, and I very quickly learned to function and to accept that environment as the normal environment, and it felt natural. That was what was so strange, is an environment which is fundamentally so unnatural could so quickly feel natural. It was an interesting experience to go through that, and as the flight progressed, of course, you become more blase about it because you have it all the time, and every now and again you have these little reality checks with, "Wait a minute. I'm weightless. I can float. That's the way I move," and you just have to remind yourself that, yes, you are weightless. Of course, another form of reality check was when you would go and look out the window and have this spectacular view, just to remind you of where you really were. It was a great experience.

[Assistant] Any way to describe what you saw out the window?

[User] Just a series of amazing sights, breathtaking sights; seeing land masses as land masses as you're accustomed to looking at them on a map, seeing familiar contours, but it's not a map, it's actually the land; seeing the atmosphere and atmospheric effects; seeing storms; seeing day change to night and back to day again forty minutes later; and seeing the different parts of the whole planet over the course of an hour and a half. It's really a unique vantage to have.

[Assistant] Was the Mir what you expected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I'd have to capture the scene on a video or something and freeze-frame it, yes, because out the window it's gone in a heartbeat. You'd have to capture it and then draw it off a screen.

[Assistant] Would that be something that the public will be able to see at some time, or is that your personal--you'd keep for yourself?

[User] No, that's personal, I think. The thing is, when you say publicly that you got sketches done on Mir, everyone expects you to be an artist, and they expect real high quality. Well, I'm not an artist. For me these were very good, I was very pleased with them, but that doesn't mean that they're really high quality, plus they are a personal record, but I'm going to frame them and put them up in my house.

[Assistant] Have you reviewed them since you've been home?

[User] Yes, I've got them at home. They're kind of nice. It's nice to see the date on them and remember the scene and what I was doing when I did them.

[Assistant] Do you do sketches of your roommates?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No lasagna. No lasagna. That came later.

[Assistant] What other forms of human contact? I know you used E-mail quite a bit. Was that something you enjoyed doing?

[User] It turns out E-mail, actually, I think, really is very important, perhaps more important than voice communication. I missed E-mail when it didn't work, and there were quite a few times that it failed, and you really notice it when it's not there because it provides a link to people. You know, it's like getting a letter in the mailbox, something you can sort of hold in your hand and you can reread and prepare a response to. You can relive it. In that sense it's actually sometimes more rewarding to receive an E-mail from home from someone rather than talk to them on a voice contact, which is over in a couple of minutes. So I really enjoyed E-mail very much. I think E-mail is very important for the people on these kinds of missions.

[Assistant] Of course, you spent time away from home when you were training in Russia.

[User] Yes. I was there for a year in preparation for this flight.

[Assistant] Could you share some experiences that you went through there, the differences of training from here to there?