[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had an impact, you know, and then the scientists there brought in the artificial insemination to try to improve the herds. It helped.

[Assistant] So after you got out the Peace Corps, have you had any continued involvement with Bolivia or Bolivians?

[User] No.

[Assistant] The family you lived with there?

[User] No, I abandoned everyone and went on my greedy way. I went back to college. I would read the paper about Bolivia and show my relatives my slides. But I didn't have contact. I didn’t keep any contact.

[Assistant] Well, tell me, do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed the direction that you went after you got out? Would you have done the same thing had you not gone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] The family you lived with there?

[User] No, I abandoned everyone and went on my greedy way. I went back to college. I would read the paper about Bolivia and show my relatives my slides. But I didn't have contact. I didn’t keep any contact.

[Assistant] Well, tell me, do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed the direction that you went after you got out? Would you have done the same thing had you not gone?

[User] I think I would have. If you go to Peace Corps, I think you stay in that direction. I think you should go and be in a program where you help people. My profession was, I built stuff. I didn't help the down-trodden.

[Assistant] Well, that’s something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I abandoned everyone and went on my greedy way. I went back to college. I would read the paper about Bolivia and show my relatives my slides. But I didn't have contact. I didn’t keep any contact.

[Assistant] Well, tell me, do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed the direction that you went after you got out? Would you have done the same thing had you not gone?

[User] I think I would have. If you go to Peace Corps, I think you stay in that direction. I think you should go and be in a program where you help people. My profession was, I built stuff. I didn't help the down-trodden.

[Assistant] Well, that’s something.

[User] Well, indirectly, but it's not.

[Assistant] You were a civil engineer, and so that's the kind of thing you did in California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I would have. If you go to Peace Corps, I think you stay in that direction. I think you should go and be in a program where you help people. My profession was, I built stuff. I didn't help the down-trodden.

[Assistant] Well, that’s something.

[User] Well, indirectly, but it's not.

[Assistant] You were a civil engineer, and so that's the kind of thing you did in California?

[User] My specialty was water and sewer, so we designed and built water treatment plants, sewage treatment, the pump stations. Did that for 37 years. Civil engineering helps society, but that was in the back of my mind, I had a good job.

[Assistant] Where I were, you know, they were always trying to see if we were altruistic. I think we were altruistic. We were also looking for some adventure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, indirectly, but it's not.

[Assistant] You were a civil engineer, and so that's the kind of thing you did in California?

[User] My specialty was water and sewer, so we designed and built water treatment plants, sewage treatment, the pump stations. Did that for 37 years. Civil engineering helps society, but that was in the back of my mind, I had a good job.

[Assistant] Where I were, you know, they were always trying to see if we were altruistic. I think we were altruistic. We were also looking for some adventure.

[User] Yeah, I think it to be something new. I was tired of school. I really didn't know which way to go to school. I mean, I didn't have good English ability. But I was good at math and understood the engineering concepts, so I went that way.

[Assistant] Which are foreign concepts to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My specialty was water and sewer, so we designed and built water treatment plants, sewage treatment, the pump stations. Did that for 37 years. Civil engineering helps society, but that was in the back of my mind, I had a good job.

[Assistant] Where I were, you know, they were always trying to see if we were altruistic. I think we were altruistic. We were also looking for some adventure.

[User] Yeah, I think it to be something new. I was tired of school. I really didn't know which way to go to school. I mean, I didn't have good English ability. But I was good at math and understood the engineering concepts, so I went that way.

[Assistant] Which are foreign concepts to me.

[User] But they're not to me.

[Assistant] Everybody needs their little direction to go. OK, so basically you said you came back and went to school, but took a while to finish with that just because.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think it to be something new. I was tired of school. I really didn't know which way to go to school. I mean, I didn't have good English ability. But I was good at math and understood the engineering concepts, so I went that way.

[Assistant] Which are foreign concepts to me.

[User] But they're not to me.

[Assistant] Everybody needs their little direction to go. OK, so basically you said you came back and went to school, but took a while to finish with that just because.

[User] Changed majors.

[Assistant] What were you doing before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they're not to me.

[Assistant] Everybody needs their little direction to go. OK, so basically you said you came back and went to school, but took a while to finish with that just because.

[User] Changed majors.

[Assistant] What were you doing before?

[User] Civil engineering. But it was structural, and I had changed over to water and sanitation, which required me to take some more hydraulic classes and take microbiology. And sewage treatment is a biological process. Had to learn that process, so it took me longer.

[Assistant] OK, well, most engineering or anyway, takes five years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Changed majors.

[Assistant] What were you doing before?

[User] Civil engineering. But it was structural, and I had changed over to water and sanitation, which required me to take some more hydraulic classes and take microbiology. And sewage treatment is a biological process. Had to learn that process, so it took me longer.

[Assistant] OK, well, most engineering or anyway, takes five years?

[User] And now I did get a master’s, just not at that time.

[Assistant] So do you have any other comments or things that you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Civil engineering. But it was structural, and I had changed over to water and sanitation, which required me to take some more hydraulic classes and take microbiology. And sewage treatment is a biological process. Had to learn that process, so it took me longer.

[Assistant] OK, well, most engineering or anyway, takes five years?

[User] And now I did get a master’s, just not at that time.

[Assistant] So do you have any other comments or things that you'd like to add?

[User] My daughters used to ask if they should join the Peace Corps and I said, do it! Do it when you're young. Now, they can't do it. They're married or they got the career, they have too much time spent on their education, they can't let that lapse.

[Assistant] Well, I know I hear students talking that they would really like to be corps, but nobody’s willing to give up that two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And now I did get a master’s, just not at that time.

[Assistant] So do you have any other comments or things that you'd like to add?

[User] My daughters used to ask if they should join the Peace Corps and I said, do it! Do it when you're young. Now, they can't do it. They're married or they got the career, they have too much time spent on their education, they can't let that lapse.

[Assistant] Well, I know I hear students talking that they would really like to be corps, but nobody’s willing to give up that two years.

[User] It can be an impact depending on where you are in your education. I think it's harder, it's harder to go right after college, especially if you if you have the technical education, you have to keep that up or you lose it. The liberal arts would actually be pretty good.

[Assistant] Well, the problem with nurses is that, if they get out, they really need to practice, because I know that for me, I felt about 10 years after I was in the Peace Corps, I had. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My daughters used to ask if they should join the Peace Corps and I said, do it! Do it when you're young. Now, they can't do it. They're married or they got the career, they have too much time spent on their education, they can't let that lapse.

[Assistant] Well, I know I hear students talking that they would really like to be corps, but nobody’s willing to give up that two years.

[User] It can be an impact depending on where you are in your education. I think it's harder, it's harder to go right after college, especially if you if you have the technical education, you have to keep that up or you lose it. The liberal arts would actually be pretty good.

[Assistant] Well, the problem with nurses is that, if they get out, they really need to practice, because I know that for me, I felt about 10 years after I was in the Peace Corps, I had. [tape break]

[User] There were bacteria and cleanliness and it wasn't cleanliness because it shined, you know, it had to be cleaned and not sterile, but at least clean. These people didn't think that was problem.

[Assistant] That would have been a real problem with trying to improve the sanitation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It can be an impact depending on where you are in your education. I think it's harder, it's harder to go right after college, especially if you if you have the technical education, you have to keep that up or you lose it. The liberal arts would actually be pretty good.

[Assistant] Well, the problem with nurses is that, if they get out, they really need to practice, because I know that for me, I felt about 10 years after I was in the Peace Corps, I had. [tape break]

[User] There were bacteria and cleanliness and it wasn't cleanliness because it shined, you know, it had to be cleaned and not sterile, but at least clean. These people didn't think that was problem.

[Assistant] That would have been a real problem with trying to improve the sanitation.

[User] It was a big problem. They just did not get it and they would do what you suggested, supply them with the soap and stuff like that, but soon as they ran out of the soap or were in a hurry and they couldn’t do it this morning because they got late, you know, it was not something they conscientiously believed in. Something they did with it might have.

[Assistant] I ran into that trying to teach him how to scrub, sterile technique, you know, because I finally had to teach it like a ceremony. Because you do this, you do this, because they didn't understand scientific principle, so you couldn't tell them that and figure that they would know how to use that, you just had to tell them a specific way to do it. And it always had to be in this way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were bacteria and cleanliness and it wasn't cleanliness because it shined, you know, it had to be cleaned and not sterile, but at least clean. These people didn't think that was problem.

[Assistant] That would have been a real problem with trying to improve the sanitation.

[User] It was a big problem. They just did not get it and they would do what you suggested, supply them with the soap and stuff like that, but soon as they ran out of the soap or were in a hurry and they couldn’t do it this morning because they got late, you know, it was not something they conscientiously believed in. Something they did with it might have.

[Assistant] I ran into that trying to teach him how to scrub, sterile technique, you know, because I finally had to teach it like a ceremony. Because you do this, you do this, because they didn't understand scientific principle, so you couldn't tell them that and figure that they would know how to use that, you just had to tell them a specific way to do it. And it always had to be in this way.

[User] You know, the hope of those people are the kids. The adults.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with kids? A lot of a lot of people were teaching English and doing other 4S clubs and stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a big problem. They just did not get it and they would do what you suggested, supply them with the soap and stuff like that, but soon as they ran out of the soap or were in a hurry and they couldn’t do it this morning because they got late, you know, it was not something they conscientiously believed in. Something they did with it might have.

[Assistant] I ran into that trying to teach him how to scrub, sterile technique, you know, because I finally had to teach it like a ceremony. Because you do this, you do this, because they didn't understand scientific principle, so you couldn't tell them that and figure that they would know how to use that, you just had to tell them a specific way to do it. And it always had to be in this way.

[User] You know, the hope of those people are the kids. The adults.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with kids? A lot of a lot of people were teaching English and doing other 4S clubs and stuff.

[User] I helped, I taught English. The replacement teachers would go on vacation, I think I took Lofton’s place for a while. But I didn't do it as a routine though.

[Assistant] Ok, well, if you have no other things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] While we’re on that topic, would you like to talk about that day when the launch happened, where you were, what your role was at that moment?

[User] We were all in Baikonur for the launch. Mr. Goldin was there, Mr. [George W.S.] Abbey was there, the head of the Russian Space Agency, dignitaries, representatives from the White House staff, and news coverage. It was a very very cold November day. It was for all the marbles, and we had a perfect launch, and we waited until we had separation from the Proton launch vehicle and the Functional Cargo Block. It was a great relief and a great sense of pride for all of us. I remember it was being televised on NASA Select back in the States. My family watched it, and lots of other people, because it was so important. That was a special day. I thought at the time there were so many people that never believed we would ever develop the hardware, much less successfully launch the Space Station, and there it was, the first element was in orbit. Shortly followed by the second launch with [Robert D.] Bob Cabana and his [STS-88] crew on the Shuttle Endeavour in December [1998] to deliver Node 1.

[Assistant] At the same time were there a lot of concerns? Did you believe that Unity was going to do well once it was there?

[User] I really did; I used to laugh. We had 21 different independent review groups overseeing the International Space Station, and it seemed like we spent half our time dealing with the various review groups, answering questions about this and about that. I guess the good news is they probably asked every imaginable technical, every question that you could imagine. Maybe instead of being a real impediment and a pain in the rear end, maybe it was really beneficial because it certainly caused us to have the Space Station looked at from every possible angle.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Were all of those [review groups] cross-cultural? Or were some independent from each nation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. The first cosmonauts came over to stay; there’s a funny story with Bill Readdy and Bill Shepherd taking them out to go grocery shopping. They were convinced that they were being taken to stores that were specially set up, because they couldn’t comprehend having more than one type of cereal on the shelf in the supermarket. They were blown away and they were convinced that it was all set up. Now it’s that way everywhere [in Russia].\n\n When all the Russians would come, I knew every suit that every one of my counterparts owned, because they only owned one or two. They certainly didn’t have a lot of money. They would stay at a hotel that offered free breakfast and a happy hour and hors d’oeuvres. They would save all their money. We would work Monday through Friday, we would have a general design review or summary meeting where we had to sign protocols on Friday, then we would have a celebration Friday night, dinner together. Then they would leave on Sunday instead of Saturday. We always left on Saturday to come home from Russia, but they always left on Sunday.\n\n On Saturday you could guarantee yourself you’d see them at Home Depot. They would be loading up everything they could. They saved all their money, and they’d be loading up everything they could get their hands on to take back to Russia. If you wanted to see your Russian friends, if you happened to be in Home Depot you would see them.

[Assistant] Any last-minute details you had to do, you had to go to Home Depot and shop with them.

[User] That’s what they would do. They would be there buying stuff. The other thing is they refused to drink American vodka because they said, “We only export the stuff to you that’s not drinkable.” They always brought their own vodka. They would not drink our vodka.

[Assistant] I guess they had empty suitcases then to put things in from Home Depot, right?

[User] Yes, that’s what they would do.

[Assistant] Wow. Were these tools or things that they would go back and use for their homes or for a business?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s what they would do. They would be there buying stuff. The other thing is they refused to drink American vodka because they said, “We only export the stuff to you that’s not drinkable.” They always brought their own vodka. They would not drink our vodka.

[Assistant] I guess they had empty suitcases then to put things in from Home Depot, right?

[User] Yes, that’s what they would do.

[Assistant] Wow. Were these tools or things that they would go back and use for their homes or for a business?

[User] No, mainly for their homes. All the things that we have, little items, this and that. None of that was available when we first got there. I went back a couple years ago. I was just amazed, because they had everything there that you could find in Paris or on Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles. When we first got there, there was nothing on the shelves.

[Assistant] I’m glad you were able to see that transition and be able to be a part of that for where it came from.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s what they would do.

[Assistant] Wow. Were these tools or things that they would go back and use for their homes or for a business?

[User] No, mainly for their homes. All the things that we have, little items, this and that. None of that was available when we first got there. I went back a couple years ago. I was just amazed, because they had everything there that you could find in Paris or on Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles. When we first got there, there was nothing on the shelves.

[Assistant] I’m glad you were able to see that transition and be able to be a part of that for where it came from.

[User] It was an amazing experience. I have great respect for the Russians. They are incredibly educated. Our counterparts, we had Russians who had left aerospace industry with PhDs that were our drivers for the Program Office of NASA. PhDs in electrical engineering, and they spoke fluent English. There was no shortage of educated Russians that we interfaced with. A lot of them left the industry because they could make more money in the flea market than they could working in aerospace.

[Assistant] Speaking of Russian engineers, some things they certainly had in common with American engineers, but one of I believe the components that was of a difference is how safety was done. How did you resolve some of the discussions about how things were going to be built or how things were going to be operated to bring safety standards to a common place between the two different space agencies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I still have a model on my desk here at my home that Muratore gave me.

[Assistant] Speaking about the crew, before you left, crews were training, and Shepherd was going to lead that command. Did you have any involvement with that encouragement to put him in charge of the first crew going up?

[User] Yes. I had lobbied hard to George Abbey and Dan Goldin that Shep deserved that because he had worked so hard as my Deputy. Of anybody that should be the first commander, it should be Bill Shepherd.

[Assistant] You still feel like you made a good decision, don’t you?

[User] I certainly do. I will say that during one conference call on NASA Select, Dan Goldin wanted to fire Shep, because while on orbit Shep had arbitrarily told Mr. Goldin that he had decided what to name the Space Station. Goldin called Abbey. He said, “I’m going to fire him.” Abbey said, “You at least got to wait till he comes back to Earth.”

[Assistant] You did mention Keith Reiley before we started talking for today’s session. Would you like to share a little bit more about the contributions that he made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re right. There was no hardware interface between the Russian hardware and the U.S. hardware before it flew. The FGB never was mated to Node 1. On those interfaces, it was never ever tested on Earth. The interface was tested the first time on orbit, in the extreme atmosphere of space. That’s a big deal. From FGB to Node 1, the first time was when [Robert D.] Bob Cabana and his crew got up there.\n\n We hadn’t checked to see if it would work at ambient temperature, much less space. But it worked—the power system, the software, the node interface, you had completely different systems on either side of the node. Those guys that work software figured it out, and there has never been a major software glitch on the Space Station. To me that’s incredible. Software worked from day one.\n\n There’s a whole other story on the software that’s just as remarkable as the hardware. The guys who ran that lab out at the Sonny Carter Facility [Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory, Houston, Texas] and the Russians, they really worked well together. They did an incredible job.

[Assistant] Did it stay pretty much on schedule and budget or did it have ups and downs as well?

[User] It had less ups and downs than the hardware did.

[Assistant] You had also mentioned earlier [Bohdan] Bo Bejmuk.

[User] Bo Bejmuk. Now that he’s a retired Boeing executive, he serves on the Stafford independent review team. Bo really played a critical role in Phase 1.

[Assistant] You said he did a lot with the hardware. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had less ups and downs than the hardware did.

[Assistant] You had also mentioned earlier [Bohdan] Bo Bejmuk.

[User] Bo Bejmuk. Now that he’s a retired Boeing executive, he serves on the Stafford independent review team. Bo really played a critical role in Phase 1.

[Assistant] You said he did a lot with the hardware. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. He was a Rockwell heritage guy that had been with the Shuttle. When we had to figure out the interface between the Shuttle and the Mir in terms of docking and to build that hardware for the interface, Bo was in charge of all that. We used the same on the Space Station, everything on the Russian segment was a Mir-2, was a derivative of Mir-1. They were able to come up with a design on the Shuttle for docking those vehicles, then we used the same interfaces on the nodes, anything that touched the Russian segment. Bo really played an important role.

[Assistant] Randy, you shared a lot about what worked well and how things were able to work out. Were there just some challenges that you met that just didn’t get done? Or where you had to compromise to a point that you weren’t happy but had to move the Station forward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bo Bejmuk. Now that he’s a retired Boeing executive, he serves on the Stafford independent review team. Bo really played a critical role in Phase 1.

[Assistant] You said he did a lot with the hardware. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. He was a Rockwell heritage guy that had been with the Shuttle. When we had to figure out the interface between the Shuttle and the Mir in terms of docking and to build that hardware for the interface, Bo was in charge of all that. We used the same on the Space Station, everything on the Russian segment was a Mir-2, was a derivative of Mir-1. They were able to come up with a design on the Shuttle for docking those vehicles, then we used the same interfaces on the nodes, anything that touched the Russian segment. Bo really played an important role.

[Assistant] Randy, you shared a lot about what worked well and how things were able to work out. Were there just some challenges that you met that just didn’t get done? Or where you had to compromise to a point that you weren’t happy but had to move the Station forward?

[User] Yes, there were decisions and priorities that I would have done otherwise, but again at the end of the day you can either resign or accept. There were decisions that were made above my pay grade. Mainly I’m talking about funding. You can only do so much, and you have to do the best with the funding that you have. Everybody wants more funding, but at the end of the day when that’s what you’re given, you have to either make that work or go do something else.

[Assistant] In 1999 you made a decision to go do something else. Why did you decide to leave NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were decisions and priorities that I would have done otherwise, but again at the end of the day you can either resign or accept. There were decisions that were made above my pay grade. Mainly I’m talking about funding. You can only do so much, and you have to do the best with the funding that you have. Everybody wants more funding, but at the end of the day when that’s what you’re given, you have to either make that work or go do something else.

[Assistant] In 1999 you made a decision to go do something else. Why did you decide to leave NASA?

[User] Because I had always wanted to go back into industry. I felt like I had done everything that I could —I felt the Station was in a position where I could walk away and feel proud about it. We had two elements on orbit working successfully. We had all the Phase 2 elements well along, ready to be launched. I could have stayed and I guess ridden that out. I talked to Mr. Abbey.\n\n I wanted to go run a company, and I wanted to do something outside the government sector. I’d spent 25 years in the Marine Corps, I spent 10 years in NASA. I wanted the experience to have an opportunity to do something on the industry side.

[Assistant] What lessons did you learn from working your years at NASA that you brought with you into your new your career?

[User] I think NASA was a follow-on building block to the Marine Corps. At NASA I felt I had achieved a degree of credibility in industry. When I was offered the job as senior vice president at Hughes Space and Comm [Communication Company] for all the satellite programs, I didn’t know anything about satellites, but I figured it couldn’t be any more complicated than Space Station or the Hubble.

[Assistant] Was that a true statement once you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I had always wanted to go back into industry. I felt like I had done everything that I could —I felt the Station was in a position where I could walk away and feel proud about it. We had two elements on orbit working successfully. We had all the Phase 2 elements well along, ready to be launched. I could have stayed and I guess ridden that out. I talked to Mr. Abbey.\n\n I wanted to go run a company, and I wanted to do something outside the government sector. I’d spent 25 years in the Marine Corps, I spent 10 years in NASA. I wanted the experience to have an opportunity to do something on the industry side.

[Assistant] What lessons did you learn from working your years at NASA that you brought with you into your new your career?

[User] I think NASA was a follow-on building block to the Marine Corps. At NASA I felt I had achieved a degree of credibility in industry. When I was offered the job as senior vice president at Hughes Space and Comm [Communication Company] for all the satellite programs, I didn’t know anything about satellites, but I figured it couldn’t be any more complicated than Space Station or the Hubble.

[Assistant] Was that a true statement once you got there?

[User] I found the Marine Corps is the most empowering organization I’ve ever been a part of and NASA is the second most empowering organization. Unfortunately, my experiences in industry, they’re certainly not of the same league in terms of empowerment.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you had lots of experience and challenging opportunities then. It sounds like that’s what prepared you for that. Did you leave any recommendations or suggestions when you left, when you knew you were exiting out? Were there some thoughts you shared?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think NASA was a follow-on building block to the Marine Corps. At NASA I felt I had achieved a degree of credibility in industry. When I was offered the job as senior vice president at Hughes Space and Comm [Communication Company] for all the satellite programs, I didn’t know anything about satellites, but I figured it couldn’t be any more complicated than Space Station or the Hubble.

[Assistant] Was that a true statement once you got there?

[User] I found the Marine Corps is the most empowering organization I’ve ever been a part of and NASA is the second most empowering organization. Unfortunately, my experiences in industry, they’re certainly not of the same league in terms of empowerment.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you had lots of experience and challenging opportunities then. It sounds like that’s what prepared you for that. Did you leave any recommendations or suggestions when you left, when you knew you were exiting out? Were there some thoughts you shared?

[User] Yes, we had an extensive lessons learned database. When I was in Hubble they were trying to recapture the Apollo lessons learned. The first thing I did is try to go back and look at lessons learned as to how I might apply them to being the mission director of the Hubble repair mission. What I found was, there really wasn’t such a thing.\n\n So we within the ISS Program established our own lessons learned. There was an extensive database created. Maybe they’ve thrown it away, but it certainly was extensive while I was there, to capture lessons learned as we went along.

[Assistant] As you look back on the years that you were there, what do you consider your greatest or the most significant contribution that you made to the Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's stop the tape, because I need water. Or you can just have the tape go. But let me just for a moment...

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Sorry about that, Stephanie.

[Assistant] Oh, that's okay.

[User] Okay. Going on. All right. What else can we cover?

[Assistant] I didn't know if you wanted to talk about the Pearl Harbor incident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I played a small part. We all are part of a relay race in life where you get the token for a while, you're given the token by someone, and then you hand it off to the next person. And if you've done your part in the relay race, running as fast as you can, doing as much as you can to help, you know, knowing that your time is limited, you value that time and then you hand it off to others to continue.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, hey, I think I've kept you over our time here, so I just want to say thank you for participating in this. I'll go ahead and get you that transcript as soon as I can, and then I'll reiterate in my email some of the points that we talked about previously. But yeah, thank you so much for all this information. It's been really great and interesting. I hope you had a good time too. And I hope [CROSS-TALKING].

[User] I did! This is a lot of fun with all these memories and thank you for giving me the opportunity. And, of course, I wish you all the best and want you to keep interviewing people.

[Assistant] Yes, yes. I will. All right. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, I'll be talking to you soon then.

[User] Thanks, Stephanie.

[Assistant] All right. Have a good rest of your day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To an astronaut environment, but it was the same kind of thing, and I could see why they wanted people who had had the formal training that you received, one, as an engineer, formal training in the academic world, but also in preparation to be a test pilot. Because basically that’s what we were looking at, was a test vehicle, a research test vehicle, unflown.\n\n The mission specialists who were selected were of that same type. They were very, very smart. They were all class Type A personalities. The majority of them had no ego whatsoever; they were very humble. Each said, you know, “If I sit and think, there were so many other people who were much more qualified than I was. I don’t know how I got selected. We’re very happy to be here.” A very compatible group, the thirty-five of us who showed up down there.\n\n But it was kind of the same kind of job that we had had before, except it was a much more complex vehicle that we were going to go fly, in a different environment.

[Assistant] You were able to keep your military connection?

[User] Well, apparently I was. [Laughs] And the first hint of that was when the Air Force Times announced the Air Force astronauts who had been selected for the astronaut program and my name was there. [Laughs] So somehow—

[Assistant] Clip it out and keep that.

[User] Oh, I do. I have it. But I guess they decided not to allow me to resign, but put me in as an Air Force astronaut.

[Assistant] Is there a certain type of agreement that NASA and the Air Force makes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, apparently I was. [Laughs] And the first hint of that was when the Air Force Times announced the Air Force astronauts who had been selected for the astronaut program and my name was there. [Laughs] So somehow—

[Assistant] Clip it out and keep that.

[User] Oh, I do. I have it. But I guess they decided not to allow me to resign, but put me in as an Air Force astronaut.

[Assistant] Is there a certain type of agreement that NASA and the Air Force makes?

[User] Yes, there is an agreement, and I’m not really sure what it is, but I think it is we are detailed to NASA, and I think the military paid our salaries and NASA paid for our travel and things of that nature. I don’t know if there was a reimbursement to the military for our services. But once we got there, military uniforms went off and we were just NASA employees.

[Assistant] You joined another group of astronauts, because there were some that were there, as you mentioned, ones that were from the MOL Program and then the class of 1966.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I do. I have it. But I guess they decided not to allow me to resign, but put me in as an Air Force astronaut.

[Assistant] Is there a certain type of agreement that NASA and the Air Force makes?

[User] Yes, there is an agreement, and I’m not really sure what it is, but I think it is we are detailed to NASA, and I think the military paid our salaries and NASA paid for our travel and things of that nature. I don’t know if there was a reimbursement to the military for our services. But once we got there, military uniforms went off and we were just NASA employees.

[Assistant] You joined another group of astronauts, because there were some that were there, as you mentioned, ones that were from the MOL Program and then the class of 1966.

[User] And earlier.

[Assistant] And earlier. Some of the veterans and certain legacies that they had already set down. Tell me how the reception was from these folks and how your new class became entwined with them as one large astronaut corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was 1983, in February of 1983, when NASA announced that you would be assigned to a flight. Then it was STS-18 and then later renamed. Tell us how that happened and how you were able to be so patient from watching those first two flights to getting yours.

[User] Oh wow. I think this had to do with whether we flew or not, it didn’t matter, because just the privilege of being there was enough for all of us. But, you know, the whole schedule was delayed by several years because of the tile replacement, so though we anticipated flying in ’78 or ’79, we didn’t fly until ’81, and then just a couple of flights, ’81, ’82 or so, then we began to spool up. Let’s see. I didn’t realize it had been—February ’83, you said?

[Assistant] Yes. It was announced and then, of course, you flew in ’85.

[User] Yes. I guess there was shifting of launch times, because we were on Spacelab 3 and I know we launched before Spacelab 2 and after Spacelab 1. I think they had some payloads that they wanted to deploy quickly, and so the laboratory missions were kind of put in a kind of a second category for priority.\n\n But, you know, the date wasn’t important at the time. To be assigned to a crew, though, with Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer as the commander, and I was going to be the pilot on it. We had Norm [Norman E.] Thagard on it and Don [L. Lind] and Taylor [G.] Wang and Lodewijk van den Berg. It sounded like it was going to be an exciting crew and an exciting time. Bob Overmyer in himself was, you know, quite an interesting Marine, and to be able to work with him was—I was privileged. So I guess I had not worried about or hadn’t even considered when it was. It was just we were going to be the best we could be when we flew.

[Assistant] How did you learn that you had been selected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh wow. I think this had to do with whether we flew or not, it didn’t matter, because just the privilege of being there was enough for all of us. But, you know, the whole schedule was delayed by several years because of the tile replacement, so though we anticipated flying in ’78 or ’79, we didn’t fly until ’81, and then just a couple of flights, ’81, ’82 or so, then we began to spool up. Let’s see. I didn’t realize it had been—February ’83, you said?

[Assistant] Yes. It was announced and then, of course, you flew in ’85.

[User] Yes. I guess there was shifting of launch times, because we were on Spacelab 3 and I know we launched before Spacelab 2 and after Spacelab 1. I think they had some payloads that they wanted to deploy quickly, and so the laboratory missions were kind of put in a kind of a second category for priority.\n\n But, you know, the date wasn’t important at the time. To be assigned to a crew, though, with Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer as the commander, and I was going to be the pilot on it. We had Norm [Norman E.] Thagard on it and Don [L. Lind] and Taylor [G.] Wang and Lodewijk van den Berg. It sounded like it was going to be an exciting crew and an exciting time. Bob Overmyer in himself was, you know, quite an interesting Marine, and to be able to work with him was—I was privileged. So I guess I had not worried about or hadn’t even considered when it was. It was just we were going to be the best we could be when we flew.

[Assistant] How did you learn that you had been selected?

[User] In the scheme of things, it was probably George Abbey who called. George did most of that. But I don’t recall how I was told.

[Assistant] Do you remember the reaction of your family when you shared the news with them that you were going to be flying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I guess there was shifting of launch times, because we were on Spacelab 3 and I know we launched before Spacelab 2 and after Spacelab 1. I think they had some payloads that they wanted to deploy quickly, and so the laboratory missions were kind of put in a kind of a second category for priority.\n\n But, you know, the date wasn’t important at the time. To be assigned to a crew, though, with Bob [Robert F.] Overmyer as the commander, and I was going to be the pilot on it. We had Norm [Norman E.] Thagard on it and Don [L. Lind] and Taylor [G.] Wang and Lodewijk van den Berg. It sounded like it was going to be an exciting crew and an exciting time. Bob Overmyer in himself was, you know, quite an interesting Marine, and to be able to work with him was—I was privileged. So I guess I had not worried about or hadn’t even considered when it was. It was just we were going to be the best we could be when we flew.

[Assistant] How did you learn that you had been selected?

[User] In the scheme of things, it was probably George Abbey who called. George did most of that. But I don’t recall how I was told.

[Assistant] Do you remember the reaction of your family when you shared the news with them that you were going to be flying?

[User] I’m sure they were excited, but I don’t recall. [Laughs]

[Assistant]
That’s all right. Well, we had talked a few minutes ago about training, and I’d like to talk about the actual training of your mission. I’m going to stop the tape for just a minute and trade out the tape.\n\n [Tape change.]

You were sharing with us the names of the members of your crew. Tell us how you started training and became not individuals, but crewmembers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] April ’85.

[Assistant] In fact, it was today in ’85. April 29th.

[User] Oh really? Okay. In ’85, so that would have been two years and about three months or so. We spent a lot of time training for that. So when we flew, I thought we were pretty well prepared for that mission. But these kinds of delays and having missions inserted was not an unusual activity at the time. You kind of accepted it and you kind of ran with it. So I’m sure that when we were designated February ’83, our launch time was not April ’85. It was probably within the year or year and a half or so or something like that.

[Assistant] I mentioned to you about patience, but Don Lind had waited since 1966.

[User] Yes, he waited. He’d been waiting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to talk about that with him, about his—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh really? Okay. In ’85, so that would have been two years and about three months or so. We spent a lot of time training for that. So when we flew, I thought we were pretty well prepared for that mission. But these kinds of delays and having missions inserted was not an unusual activity at the time. You kind of accepted it and you kind of ran with it. So I’m sure that when we were designated February ’83, our launch time was not April ’85. It was probably within the year or year and a half or so or something like that.

[Assistant] I mentioned to you about patience, but Don Lind had waited since 1966.

[User] Yes, he waited. He’d been waiting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to talk about that with him, about his—

[User] Oh sure. Yes, Don not only waited for those—he was a ’66 guy, so that’s nineteen years. He had not only waited those nineteen years patiently, but was at the same desk, as I understand it, that he had when he arrived in ’66. So he never changed desks in that time frame. Then he flew, he was satisfied, and then went back to the academic world.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, share with us about the flight. Here it is, it has now come, the delays are over and you have an opportunity to be a part of this crew that’s going to go up. Can you tell us about those moments and about your first flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he waited. He’d been waiting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have an opportunity to talk about that with him, about his—

[User] Oh sure. Yes, Don not only waited for those—he was a ’66 guy, so that’s nineteen years. He had not only waited those nineteen years patiently, but was at the same desk, as I understand it, that he had when he arrived in ’66. So he never changed desks in that time frame. Then he flew, he was satisfied, and then went back to the academic world.

[Assistant] Wow. Well, share with us about the flight. Here it is, it has now come, the delays are over and you have an opportunity to be a part of this crew that’s going to go up. Can you tell us about those moments and about your first flight?

[User] I’m sure I was very excited. I think I was probably anxious, but certainly not afraid. I had great confidence in the team and sub teams. I was not of a thorough understanding of all of the science that was being conducted, because we had other areas of concentration, and as the pilot, my responsibility was maintaining the Orbiter to assure that it provided the right environment for the science to take place.\n\n But we had worked as a crew for a long period of time and it was a happy and exciting crew. We were still flying in flying suits. The only thing that differed from our training was that we would now be wearing this helmet to provide oxygen for us in case of loss of integrity. But the assumption was that you could maintain the integrity of the atmosphere in the cabin long enough to get the Orbiter back on the ground.\n\n We got in the Orbiter. Of the three, I never had any delays once we got in the Orbiter. So this was just the first of the three. We got in, and with one little hiccup, but it was just a delay, just a moment delay, and then we launched. It was similar to the simulation, but they left out the 5 percent and that was the “Wow!” [Laughter]

[Assistant] The wow factor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think what we'll do is we'll just check to make sure this is recording before we carry on. Ok?

[Assistant] We could, if you like.

[User] Yes, let's do it. Just to be sure, because this has happened to me.

[Assistant] Ok. We're hoping for the best.

[User] Hmm. Ok. Good.

[Assistant] Um, you've arrived in Nigeria, you find yourself in Ibadan. Could you talk a little bit about Ibadan? What's Ibadan like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, let's do it. Just to be sure, because this has happened to me.

[Assistant] Ok. We're hoping for the best.

[User] Hmm. Ok. Good.

[Assistant] Um, you've arrived in Nigeria, you find yourself in Ibadan. Could you talk a little bit about Ibadan? What's Ibadan like?

[User] Well, Ibadan is a big city, so that's the first surprise. Well, no, it's the second surprise. The first surprise is getting out of the plane in Lagos and walking out of the plane and.

[Assistant] You would have come down the stairs, right into the tarmac.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boys and girls, mostly boys. But about a third, a third to half, were women. This was mostly boys, but a good, good percentage were also women.

[Assistant] And was it a boarding school?

[User] It was a boarding school. Some students came from the town, from their homes in the town of Abeokuta, the city of Abeokuta. But most of them lived on campus. And at this point it was a strict English medium school, and Eluyemi was very strict about that, that students, even though they were almost all Yoruba, must speak English on campus. Of course they did, and they didn't. But as all students were, would be. But it was strict because English was a compulsory subject for HSC.

[Assistant] Mm-hmm. HSC being?

[User] Higher School Certificate, which would be the entrance into university at this time.

[Assistant] And this is thought to be equivalent to what was happening in Britain.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a boarding school. Some students came from the town, from their homes in the town of Abeokuta, the city of Abeokuta. But most of them lived on campus. And at this point it was a strict English medium school, and Eluyemi was very strict about that, that students, even though they were almost all Yoruba, must speak English on campus. Of course they did, and they didn't. But as all students were, would be. But it was strict because English was a compulsory subject for HSC.

[Assistant] Mm-hmm. HSC being?

[User] Higher School Certificate, which would be the entrance into university at this time.

[Assistant] And this is thought to be equivalent to what was happening in Britain.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] On a par?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Higher School Certificate, which would be the entrance into university at this time.

[Assistant] And this is thought to be equivalent to what was happening in Britain.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] On a par?

[User] Yes. On a par with it. Right. And Ibadan University was the primary university, but there were others. There was one in the east at Nsukka, which was on an American model. But Ibadan was on a British model and as well as Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria, in the north, on a British model. So I lived on campus. I had a flat, an apartment, above one of the buildings that was the girls’ dormitory. They were on the ground floor and I was on a second floor and I had a separate, you know, entrance to my flat. There was another faculty flat that adjoined mine in the same building, and it was a relatively new building. So and the first, you know, my housing was quite comfortable. I had something like a one, two bedroom place with a dining room and a living room.

[Assistant] And did you employ someone to help with the shopping and the cleaning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] On a par?

[User] Yes. On a par with it. Right. And Ibadan University was the primary university, but there were others. There was one in the east at Nsukka, which was on an American model. But Ibadan was on a British model and as well as Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria, in the north, on a British model. So I lived on campus. I had a flat, an apartment, above one of the buildings that was the girls’ dormitory. They were on the ground floor and I was on a second floor and I had a separate, you know, entrance to my flat. There was another faculty flat that adjoined mine in the same building, and it was a relatively new building. So and the first, you know, my housing was quite comfortable. I had something like a one, two bedroom place with a dining room and a living room.

[Assistant] And did you employ someone to help with the shopping and the cleaning?

[User] I did. I did. I wouldn't have survived two years on my own cooking, so I hired a cook. Most of the cooks who were working for either other Peace Corps volunteers or other Americans or other Brits or other Canadians who were teaching in the various schools, because there was the Canadian equivalent of CUSO. And there was the British equivalent of VSO and then us Peace Corps volunteers, and then there were other contract teachers and so on.

[Assistant] Yes. And in the faculty at your school, the African Church Grammar School, were there other expatriates?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. On a par with it. Right. And Ibadan University was the primary university, but there were others. There was one in the east at Nsukka, which was on an American model. But Ibadan was on a British model and as well as Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria, in the north, on a British model. So I lived on campus. I had a flat, an apartment, above one of the buildings that was the girls’ dormitory. They were on the ground floor and I was on a second floor and I had a separate, you know, entrance to my flat. There was another faculty flat that adjoined mine in the same building, and it was a relatively new building. So and the first, you know, my housing was quite comfortable. I had something like a one, two bedroom place with a dining room and a living room.

[Assistant] And did you employ someone to help with the shopping and the cleaning?

[User] I did. I did. I wouldn't have survived two years on my own cooking, so I hired a cook. Most of the cooks who were working for either other Peace Corps volunteers or other Americans or other Brits or other Canadians who were teaching in the various schools, because there was the Canadian equivalent of CUSO. And there was the British equivalent of VSO and then us Peace Corps volunteers, and then there were other contract teachers and so on.

[Assistant] Yes. And in the faculty at your school, the African Church Grammar School, were there other expatriates?

[User] No. Oh yes, there were. I was the only Peace Corps person in my school, but there was an Indian couple, Agarwal. And Patel, these were both, I think, Gujaratis one couple, a husband and wife and then a single man. And they were other, the other expat faculty members at this grammar school. All the others were Yorubas from Abeokuta or other parts of Yoruba land.

[Assistant] And did the other expats live also, as you did, on the school compound?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I did. I wouldn't have survived two years on my own cooking, so I hired a cook. Most of the cooks who were working for either other Peace Corps volunteers or other Americans or other Brits or other Canadians who were teaching in the various schools, because there was the Canadian equivalent of CUSO. And there was the British equivalent of VSO and then us Peace Corps volunteers, and then there were other contract teachers and so on.

[Assistant] Yes. And in the faculty at your school, the African Church Grammar School, were there other expatriates?

[User] No. Oh yes, there were. I was the only Peace Corps person in my school, but there was an Indian couple, Agarwal. And Patel, these were both, I think, Gujaratis one couple, a husband and wife and then a single man. And they were other, the other expat faculty members at this grammar school. All the others were Yorubas from Abeokuta or other parts of Yoruba land.

[Assistant] And did the other expats live also, as you did, on the school compound?

[User] Yes. Yes, they did, in a separate house. I think they were, if I remember correctly, I think they were in an extension or attachment of the principal's house, which was on campus as well, and they lived in one part of that house.

[Assistant] And the principal was Yoruba.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Oh yes, there were. I was the only Peace Corps person in my school, but there was an Indian couple, Agarwal. And Patel, these were both, I think, Gujaratis one couple, a husband and wife and then a single man. And they were other, the other expat faculty members at this grammar school. All the others were Yorubas from Abeokuta or other parts of Yoruba land.

[Assistant] And did the other expats live also, as you did, on the school compound?

[User] Yes. Yes, they did, in a separate house. I think they were, if I remember correctly, I think they were in an extension or attachment of the principal's house, which was on campus as well, and they lived in one part of that house.

[Assistant] And the principal was Yoruba.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did most of the Yoruba faculty live on campus or in town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, they did, in a separate house. I think they were, if I remember correctly, I think they were in an extension or attachment of the principal's house, which was on campus as well, and they lived in one part of that house.

[Assistant] And the principal was Yoruba.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did most of the Yoruba faculty live on campus or in town?

[User] They lived in town.

[Assistant] Did they have a choice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did most of the Yoruba faculty live on campus or in town?

[User] They lived in town.

[Assistant] Did they have a choice?

[User] I think they had a choice, but there wasn't any other housing for teachers on campus. It was the dormitory for the boys and for the girls. My apartment, one other apartment on the other side. And I'm not, I don't remember who stayed there. And then there's the other Indian colleagues who were on campus. Everybody else was off campus. So when I arrived, we got there, it was like late August and it was school break for two weeks.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. That's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They lived in town.

[Assistant] Did they have a choice?

[User] I think they had a choice, but there wasn't any other housing for teachers on campus. It was the dormitory for the boys and for the girls. My apartment, one other apartment on the other side. And I'm not, I don't remember who stayed there. And then there's the other Indian colleagues who were on campus. Everybody else was off campus. So when I arrived, we got there, it was like late August and it was school break for two weeks.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. That's good.

[User] No, it was terrible.

[Assistant] It wasn't, really?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they had a choice, but there wasn't any other housing for teachers on campus. It was the dormitory for the boys and for the girls. My apartment, one other apartment on the other side. And I'm not, I don't remember who stayed there. And then there's the other Indian colleagues who were on campus. Everybody else was off campus. So when I arrived, we got there, it was like late August and it was school break for two weeks.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. That's good.

[User] No, it was terrible.

[Assistant] It wasn't, really?

[User] It was terrible. That was the worst period of my two years.

[Assistant] What made it so bad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was terrible.

[Assistant] It wasn't, really?

[User] It was terrible. That was the worst period of my two years.

[Assistant] What made it so bad?

[User] Because I was at a total loss. I felt totally alone. I was thrown into a culture that I was desperate to try to understand, comprehend, and become a part of. And I felt totally unable to do so. I had as a youngster growing up, I don't know if I mentioned this in the earlier part of our interview, but when I was a counselor in a summer camp during my years in high school, starting when I was a freshman or a sophomore in high school, I was a camp counselor and tennis instructor. I suffered very serious homesickness. And, you know, it was a physical and mental psychological state. And I battled that all through high school and even during the years of college, I always had trouble in those transitions leaving home. And this was the most extreme of those because it wasn't like I could get on a train or a, you know, a drive in my car back home to see my family. And I realized I was there for two years, and I just didn't know if I was going to be able to do it.

[Assistant] And you didn't have a function to distract from this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was at a total loss. I felt totally alone. I was thrown into a culture that I was desperate to try to understand, comprehend, and become a part of. And I felt totally unable to do so. I had as a youngster growing up, I don't know if I mentioned this in the earlier part of our interview, but when I was a counselor in a summer camp during my years in high school, starting when I was a freshman or a sophomore in high school, I was a camp counselor and tennis instructor. I suffered very serious homesickness. And, you know, it was a physical and mental psychological state. And I battled that all through high school and even during the years of college, I always had trouble in those transitions leaving home. And this was the most extreme of those because it wasn't like I could get on a train or a, you know, a drive in my car back home to see my family. And I realized I was there for two years, and I just didn't know if I was going to be able to do it.

[Assistant] And you didn't have a function to distract from this.

[User] And I had no function. That was the, that's what made it so difficult because I was dumped. You know, I felt like I was dumped in a place where no one knew me. Nobody cared. And I was far from Ibadan and from the people who had welcomed me warmly and that had been fine. But once I was alone in my new home for the next two years, it was daunting.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And it was daunting because there were still two weeks before classes began. My colleagues would return and life would come to that campus. I was essentially in an abandoned site.

[Assistant] That's right, it was all empty. Everybody had cleared out, they're on vacation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had no function. That was the, that's what made it so difficult because I was dumped. You know, I felt like I was dumped in a place where no one knew me. Nobody cared. And I was far from Ibadan and from the people who had welcomed me warmly and that had been fine. But once I was alone in my new home for the next two years, it was daunting.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And it was daunting because there were still two weeks before classes began. My colleagues would return and life would come to that campus. I was essentially in an abandoned site.

[Assistant] That's right, it was all empty. Everybody had cleared out, they're on vacation.

[User] Everybody had cleared out. The principal was away on travels. And I knew absolutely no one and I know I had little or no Yoruba. I had learned something during training, but it was, you know, it's just too rudimentary. And so it was a very strong cultural shock.

[Assistant] How far was your school from the center of Abeokuta?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was daunting because there were still two weeks before classes began. My colleagues would return and life would come to that campus. I was essentially in an abandoned site.

[Assistant] That's right, it was all empty. Everybody had cleared out, they're on vacation.

[User] Everybody had cleared out. The principal was away on travels. And I knew absolutely no one and I know I had little or no Yoruba. I had learned something during training, but it was, you know, it's just too rudimentary. And so it was a very strong cultural shock.

[Assistant] How far was your school from the center of Abeokuta?

[User] We were in the city, but on the edge of the city. We were in what is called Ibara quarter. I-B-A-R-A. It's the Igbado part of town and the Igbado are the original inhabitants of that area. It was the Egba who came later, the E-G-B-A peoples who came and Oyo people who came later to settle Abeokuta as a refugee center and city. So we were specifically the address of the school and the area was Eta Iyalode. E-T-A. I-Y-A-L-O-D- E, which means crossroads of the market. The women, the woman, who was the head of the marketplace. It was near market area. And much later on, when I returned to do research on Yoruba art, Eta Iyalode and Ibara quarter became an important site for my research on the arts. But I had none, I knew nothing about it.

[Assistant] At that time. That's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody had cleared out. The principal was away on travels. And I knew absolutely no one and I know I had little or no Yoruba. I had learned something during training, but it was, you know, it's just too rudimentary. And so it was a very strong cultural shock.

[Assistant] How far was your school from the center of Abeokuta?

[User] We were in the city, but on the edge of the city. We were in what is called Ibara quarter. I-B-A-R-A. It's the Igbado part of town and the Igbado are the original inhabitants of that area. It was the Egba who came later, the E-G-B-A peoples who came and Oyo people who came later to settle Abeokuta as a refugee center and city. So we were specifically the address of the school and the area was Eta Iyalode. E-T-A. I-Y-A-L-O-D- E, which means crossroads of the market. The women, the woman, who was the head of the marketplace. It was near market area. And much later on, when I returned to do research on Yoruba art, Eta Iyalode and Ibara quarter became an important site for my research on the arts. But I had none, I knew nothing about it.

[Assistant] At that time. That's right.

[User] Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[Assistant] Did you find yourself getting out of your, your apartment was furnished when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[Assistant] Did you find yourself getting out of your, your apartment was furnished when you got there?

[User] Yeah, basically, I had to provide some things and I had to find somebody to help. And that took a little while. It wasn't immediate. So those first two weeks were the toughest. After that, everything, as soon as people started coming back to campus and I found somebody to help me with the cooking and Igbo chap because it was mostly the Igbo who were the domestic, so-called domestic, servants in the community, not Yoruba, but Igbo, I-G-B-O.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yeah. And once that life and activity started, I was OK, but I have to admit at certain points in those two weeks, I was ready to call the Peace Corps office and say, can't do it, have to go home.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you didn't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And once that life and activity started, I was OK, but I have to admit at certain points in those two weeks, I was ready to call the Peace Corps office and say, can't do it, have to go home.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you didn't.

[User] I'm so glad I didn't either. I stuck it out, as I had several other years before and in different situations.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So and now it's ironic because I'm the one person. I'm the traveler in my family. I'm the one who's never at home. And yet in those early years, I was the one who was most affected by being away from home.

[Assistant] Yes. This says something about the strength of your family, though, and the close attachments, you know, which is a good thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm so glad I didn't either. I stuck it out, as I had several other years before and in different situations.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So and now it's ironic because I'm the one person. I'm the traveler in my family. I'm the one who's never at home. And yet in those early years, I was the one who was most affected by being away from home.

[Assistant] Yes. This says something about the strength of your family, though, and the close attachments, you know, which is a good thing.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There were other Peace Corps volunteers in Abeokuta not connected with your school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So and now it's ironic because I'm the one person. I'm the traveler in my family. I'm the one who's never at home. And yet in those early years, I was the one who was most affected by being away from home.

[Assistant] Yes. This says something about the strength of your family, though, and the close attachments, you know, which is a good thing.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There were other Peace Corps volunteers in Abeokuta not connected with your school?

[User] Right. There were, I think, it was one other woman who was in another school. And then there was somebody who was in a smaller town, not too far away, but it was their vacation time. So everybody had fled.

[Assistant] Even the Peace Corps volunteers, they're all gone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There were other Peace Corps volunteers in Abeokuta not connected with your school?

[User] Right. There were, I think, it was one other woman who was in another school. And then there was somebody who was in a smaller town, not too far away, but it was their vacation time. So everybody had fled.

[Assistant] Even the Peace Corps volunteers, they're all gone?

[User] Oh yeah, everybody. They were all gone. Of course, there was a thriving community around me, but I had, I wasn't able to connect.

[Assistant] You're on the outside of it still, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. There were, I think, it was one other woman who was in another school. And then there was somebody who was in a smaller town, not too far away, but it was their vacation time. So everybody had fled.

[Assistant] Even the Peace Corps volunteers, they're all gone?

[User] Oh yeah, everybody. They were all gone. Of course, there was a thriving community around me, but I had, I wasn't able to connect.

[Assistant] You're on the outside of it still, yeah.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] And when you were at home in your apartment, up on the second floor there. Did you have electricity available to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You did.

[User] Yep, I had running water and electricity. It was a newly constructed building, as a dormitory and as flats for faculty.

[Assistant] Concrete block?

[User] Yes, concrete block. And it was well constructed. It was a good school. You know, Eluyemi was, um, he was an impressive character, very strict and very firm and very accomplished in what he was trying to do.

[Assistant] So let's go into the classroom. Two weeks later, students start arriving.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, I had running water and electricity. It was a newly constructed building, as a dormitory and as flats for faculty.

[Assistant] Concrete block?

[User] Yes, concrete block. And it was well constructed. It was a good school. You know, Eluyemi was, um, he was an impressive character, very strict and very firm and very accomplished in what he was trying to do.

[Assistant] So let's go into the classroom. Two weeks later, students start arriving.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Faculty pours in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, concrete block. And it was well constructed. It was a good school. You know, Eluyemi was, um, he was an impressive character, very strict and very firm and very accomplished in what he was trying to do.

[Assistant] So let's go into the classroom. Two weeks later, students start arriving.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Faculty pours in.

[User] Right. And I meet my colleagues and things start to improve. I like my colleagues. I'm learning to teach. I've developed a audio lingual method approach to teaching French, and I started making my own textbook of conversation so that it was a kind of call and response. It was mainly to have them learn by speaking first and then writing grammar were to come later. And it was basic, very elementary kind of French. And then I was also doing some English and English literature classes as well.

[Assistant] Do you remember what kind of English lit you were exposing the students to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And I meet my colleagues and things start to improve. I like my colleagues. I'm learning to teach. I've developed a audio lingual method approach to teaching French, and I started making my own textbook of conversation so that it was a kind of call and response. It was mainly to have them learn by speaking first and then writing grammar were to come later. And it was basic, very elementary kind of French. And then I was also doing some English and English literature classes as well.

[Assistant] Do you remember what kind of English lit you were exposing the students to?

[User] No, not really. I don't. Those were not things that were attracting me.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] I, you know, I realized pretty early on that I didn't want to become a language teacher. I tried to do the best I could in the time that I had there, but other interests started pulling me in other directions.

[Assistant] And we'll spend most of our time talking about those other interests. But I'm still curious about some things in your class.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I don't. Those were not things that were attracting me.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] I, you know, I realized pretty early on that I didn't want to become a language teacher. I tried to do the best I could in the time that I had there, but other interests started pulling me in other directions.

[Assistant] And we'll spend most of our time talking about those other interests. But I'm still curious about some things in your class.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You invented your own system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, you know, I realized pretty early on that I didn't want to become a language teacher. I tried to do the best I could in the time that I had there, but other interests started pulling me in other directions.

[Assistant] And we'll spend most of our time talking about those other interests. But I'm still curious about some things in your class.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You invented your own system?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] An audio lingual of conversation first and then grammar analysis. Were you provided with books, textbooks for French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] You invented your own system?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] An audio lingual of conversation first and then grammar analysis. Were you provided with books, textbooks for French?

[User] I think I had. I think I had something from the training program because we were doing student teaching. We had to organize some classes during the time we were at T.C. [Teachers College] and at Barnard, because we were housed at Barnard. And we had some classes on the, most of our classes where at Teachers College, but also at the university.

[Assistant] And that included some student teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] An audio lingual of conversation first and then grammar analysis. Were you provided with books, textbooks for French?

[User] I think I had. I think I had something from the training program because we were doing student teaching. We had to organize some classes during the time we were at T.C. [Teachers College] and at Barnard, because we were housed at Barnard. And we had some classes on the, most of our classes where at Teachers College, but also at the university.

[Assistant] And that included some student teaching.

[User] Yes, it did. Right. So that was our rudimentary training as secondary school teachers because most of us were not education majors as college students, we were in subjects of various kinds. But I enjoyed the teaching. One of the things that I may have said about my experience at Hamilton that I very much appreciated was their emphasis upon public speaking, on rhetoric and public speaking. This was a core element of the curriculum at Hamilton, and I became a good public speaker and that helped as a teacher, of course. So, so that was, the teaching was good. I enjoyed it. And despite the no speaking of Yoruba on campus, I encouraged my students to teach me Yoruba.

[Assistant] Outside of class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I had. I think I had something from the training program because we were doing student teaching. We had to organize some classes during the time we were at T.C. [Teachers College] and at Barnard, because we were housed at Barnard. And we had some classes on the, most of our classes where at Teachers College, but also at the university.

[Assistant] And that included some student teaching.

[User] Yes, it did. Right. So that was our rudimentary training as secondary school teachers because most of us were not education majors as college students, we were in subjects of various kinds. But I enjoyed the teaching. One of the things that I may have said about my experience at Hamilton that I very much appreciated was their emphasis upon public speaking, on rhetoric and public speaking. This was a core element of the curriculum at Hamilton, and I became a good public speaker and that helped as a teacher, of course. So, so that was, the teaching was good. I enjoyed it. And despite the no speaking of Yoruba on campus, I encouraged my students to teach me Yoruba.

[Assistant] Outside of class?

[User] Outside the class and out of hearing of the principal. And that's, of course, was giving me confidence to then enter the community that I was living in, and I made friends with a number of the Yoruba, my Yoruba colleagues. I remember, well, one of them invited me to a luncheon at the local sports club and this was a hangover from the British presence in Abeokuta.

[Assistant] But the Yoruba were welcome in it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were, and it had become a Yoruba club, essentially. And I was also interested in it because it had a tennis court, you see, and I was a serious tennis player.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] But this Yoruba colleague invited me to lunch. And this was soon after classes had started, maybe two or three weeks into the first session of teaching. And I ordered a dish called jollof rice because I wanted to become Yoruba, you see. So I didn't order the English menu. It was the Yoruba menu, okay?

[Assistant] Right, yes.

[User] And it was jollof rice. But it was seasoned as a Yoruba would season it, that is, with lots of pepper and which I thought was tomatoes. Well, I was in for a surprise and I started tearing and having to blow my nose and Yoruba friend, my new Yoruba colleague friend, he never said anything, but I'm sure he felt that I was crying for home, that I was sad and that, because, you know, pepper is pepper. You know, you don't cry unless you're sad about something. So anyway, so this was one of my early experiences of, you know, taking in Yoruba cuisine and making another kind of an adjustment.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you have beer to go along with that jollof rice, wash it down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was jollof rice. But it was seasoned as a Yoruba would season it, that is, with lots of pepper and which I thought was tomatoes. Well, I was in for a surprise and I started tearing and having to blow my nose and Yoruba friend, my new Yoruba colleague friend, he never said anything, but I'm sure he felt that I was crying for home, that I was sad and that, because, you know, pepper is pepper. You know, you don't cry unless you're sad about something. So anyway, so this was one of my early experiences of, you know, taking in Yoruba cuisine and making another kind of an adjustment.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you have beer to go along with that jollof rice, wash it down?

[User] Yeah, I tried. But that just spread it around further so that it was affecting every part of my body. All of this goes into now my own research on sensiotics, you see.

[Assistant] Ah yes.

[User] These are the things I think about now because they are actually some of the deepest, strongest memories of cultural experience and cultural, different cultural ways and how we adapt to them or don't.

[Assistant] Your initial experience of encountering that wall of heat when you got off the plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I tried. But that just spread it around further so that it was affecting every part of my body. All of this goes into now my own research on sensiotics, you see.

[Assistant] Ah yes.

[User] These are the things I think about now because they are actually some of the deepest, strongest memories of cultural experience and cultural, different cultural ways and how we adapt to them or don't.

[Assistant] Your initial experience of encountering that wall of heat when you got off the plane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then the smells of the marketplace and the wood fires. And now the taste and the bite of that extremely hot pepper.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These are the things I think about now because they are actually some of the deepest, strongest memories of cultural experience and cultural, different cultural ways and how we adapt to them or don't.

[Assistant] Your initial experience of encountering that wall of heat when you got off the plane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then the smells of the marketplace and the wood fires. And now the taste and the bite of that extremely hot pepper.

[User] Yes. Yes, right. And I'm sure the sounds of the city of Ibadan and of Abeokuta are also things that that I was having to process and think about and have them become part of me. And these initial challenges of adaptation to a new cultural milieu is one of the key lessons of sensiotics. That is, when I go to do research and study in a new place, I try to make extensive notes and document with film and photographs, all of the things that are so unusual, so different in those initial encounters because once they become naturalized, once they become ordinary, you don't notice them anymore. You don't think about them. And those are some of the key insights that sensiotics has brought me in subsequent experiences. So, so I started learning more Yoruba as a volunteer, that is, a Peace Corps volunteer. I was also expected to volunteer for other jobs at the college, and so I was appointed as games master, which in the British system is the athletic director, okay? So I was in charge of student sports.

[Assistant] And those sports were? Not baseball.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And then the smells of the marketplace and the wood fires. And now the taste and the bite of that extremely hot pepper.

[User] Yes. Yes, right. And I'm sure the sounds of the city of Ibadan and of Abeokuta are also things that that I was having to process and think about and have them become part of me. And these initial challenges of adaptation to a new cultural milieu is one of the key lessons of sensiotics. That is, when I go to do research and study in a new place, I try to make extensive notes and document with film and photographs, all of the things that are so unusual, so different in those initial encounters because once they become naturalized, once they become ordinary, you don't notice them anymore. You don't think about them. And those are some of the key insights that sensiotics has brought me in subsequent experiences. So, so I started learning more Yoruba as a volunteer, that is, a Peace Corps volunteer. I was also expected to volunteer for other jobs at the college, and so I was appointed as games master, which in the British system is the athletic director, okay? So I was in charge of student sports.

[Assistant] And those sports were? Not baseball.

[User] And the sports were not baseball. Well, soccer was the big sport in the school.

[Assistant] Which they would have called football.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, right. And I'm sure the sounds of the city of Ibadan and of Abeokuta are also things that that I was having to process and think about and have them become part of me. And these initial challenges of adaptation to a new cultural milieu is one of the key lessons of sensiotics. That is, when I go to do research and study in a new place, I try to make extensive notes and document with film and photographs, all of the things that are so unusual, so different in those initial encounters because once they become naturalized, once they become ordinary, you don't notice them anymore. You don't think about them. And those are some of the key insights that sensiotics has brought me in subsequent experiences. So, so I started learning more Yoruba as a volunteer, that is, a Peace Corps volunteer. I was also expected to volunteer for other jobs at the college, and so I was appointed as games master, which in the British system is the athletic director, okay? So I was in charge of student sports.

[Assistant] And those sports were? Not baseball.

[User] And the sports were not baseball. Well, soccer was the big sport in the school.

[Assistant] Which they would have called football.

[User] Which they called football, right, and which I knew nothing about. So I was the football coach. Luckily, they were great players and they knew all the rules. So I just kind of was there for the games and for practices and, you know, for, you know, preparations and so on. But I had a Yoruba colleague on the faculty who helped me with that. Because of my interest in tennis, there was an open space not too far from the dormitory and my flat, that looked like a likely spot for a tennis court. So I had it built. I had a tennis court built and I got my, I got Hamilton College to donate the tennis net, which they shipped over. And we.

[Assistant] How did you fund the construction of the court?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, the principal gave me some funds and they were doing some construction of another building. So there was a tractor available and I just had him level the space large enough and I put in the posts and sunk them in concrete. And we had a tennis court. However, and we were, I thought it would work fine because the soil in Abeokuta and much of Yoruba land is lateritic soil, it's clay-based iron rich soil.

[Assistant] Red.

[User] Red. Looks like a clay tennis court. However, I didn't, it wasn't fine enough, even though I had a steamroller come and steamroll the thing down. The grains were still too large, so it was only a semi-functioning tennis court and we had no money to pave it with anything more permanent. But it was my attempt as games master to add another sport to the college. And I was also the coach of the volleyball team, a new volleyball team, and I knew something about volleyball. So I was able to do some coaching and in fact brought a couple of volleyball, American volleyball strategies, like spiking and stuff to the game that the other teams didn't know about. And so we had the winning team in the town during my two years. So those were my efforts at school besides the teaching. Early on, I think in the first three or four months, on a trip to Ibadan.

[Assistant] Which was how far away?

[User] It was about an hour and a half by road.

[Assistant] And how would you get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Red. Looks like a clay tennis court. However, I didn't, it wasn't fine enough, even though I had a steamroller come and steamroll the thing down. The grains were still too large, so it was only a semi-functioning tennis court and we had no money to pave it with anything more permanent. But it was my attempt as games master to add another sport to the college. And I was also the coach of the volleyball team, a new volleyball team, and I knew something about volleyball. So I was able to do some coaching and in fact brought a couple of volleyball, American volleyball strategies, like spiking and stuff to the game that the other teams didn't know about. And so we had the winning team in the town during my two years. So those were my efforts at school besides the teaching. Early on, I think in the first three or four months, on a trip to Ibadan.

[Assistant] Which was how far away?

[User] It was about an hour and a half by road.

[Assistant] And how would you get there?

[User] I'd take public transportation or long distance, yeah, either long distance taxis or sometimes busses.

[Assistant] And a taxi, of course, was not our concept of a taxi here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about an hour and a half by road.

[Assistant] And how would you get there?

[User] I'd take public transportation or long distance, yeah, either long distance taxis or sometimes busses.

[Assistant] And a taxi, of course, was not our concept of a taxi here.

[User] Yeah, right. Well, these are communal taxis.

[Assistant] That's right, you sit and wait until it fills up with enough passengers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd take public transportation or long distance, yeah, either long distance taxis or sometimes busses.

[Assistant] And a taxi, of course, was not our concept of a taxi here.

[User] Yeah, right. Well, these are communal taxis.

[Assistant] That's right, you sit and wait until it fills up with enough passengers.

[User] Right. When it fills up, right. And it's, yeah, and it's over full, you know, because it's a four-seater car that takes maybe six or eight people. Yeah, yeah. So those, that's how I would get to Ibadan, but at a certain point, and I can't remember exactly when. But maybe after the first three or four months I bought myself a motorcycle. Wasn't supposed to have it, but I got it, and they were kind of flexible on that matter. But they were concerned about road accidents and safety and so on. But I had a small Honda 50 and I wouldn't, I would call it a motorbike. It's not any motorcycle. It's like a Harley person would say, this one's a joke.

[Assistant] I too had a Honda 50, top speed 21 miles an hour.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Foss was one and Phil Stevens, who taught somewhere in Yorubaland and then stopped his teaching and was shifted to the Department of Antiquities and did all the work that established the museum and the site of Esie where these sandstone carvings are. So and Phil Stevens is somebody that I corresponded with and have worked with ever since. He's retired now, but he taught for many years at SUNY Buffalo in the anthropology department.

[Assistant] So what got you interested in this? Was Biobaku at the University of Ibadan? How did you find out about him? How did you somehow?

[User] I don't know. I don't know. Somebody, I think somebody in the Peace Corps office suggested that I should meet him, and he should know that I was teaching in Abeokuta. Because he, as a son of Abeokuta, he was very interested in promoting that as an academic center with many schools and to establishing its place in the history of Yoruba land. And so I was there and was interested and had lots of enthusiasm. And so we tried to put a project together.

[Assistant] But it sounds like it didn't come to fruition.

[User] No, it didn't.

[Assistant] Because you continued teaching instead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I don't know. Somebody, I think somebody in the Peace Corps office suggested that I should meet him, and he should know that I was teaching in Abeokuta. Because he, as a son of Abeokuta, he was very interested in promoting that as an academic center with many schools and to establishing its place in the history of Yoruba land. And so I was there and was interested and had lots of enthusiasm. And so we tried to put a project together.

[Assistant] But it sounds like it didn't come to fruition.

[User] No, it didn't.

[Assistant] Because you continued teaching instead.

[User] Yeah, I continued teaching. Right. But I would work on that during school breaks for, you know, for that first year that I was there. But by the end of the first year, it was clear that it wasn't going to happen. He maybe he went overseas or he was caught up in other projects that he was working on. And so it just never, it never took off. We got it to a proposal point and we submitted it to the government, but then no funding.

[Assistant] When you say that you worked on that project during school breaks for that first year, what do you mean? What was your work in that regard?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it didn't.

[Assistant] Because you continued teaching instead.

[User] Yeah, I continued teaching. Right. But I would work on that during school breaks for, you know, for that first year that I was there. But by the end of the first year, it was clear that it wasn't going to happen. He maybe he went overseas or he was caught up in other projects that he was working on. And so it just never, it never took off. We got it to a proposal point and we submitted it to the government, but then no funding.

[Assistant] When you say that you worked on that project during school breaks for that first year, what do you mean? What was your work in that regard?

[User] Well, it was, um. It was going to meet him in Ibadan and talk about the project and what we wanted to have happen in the museum. And then it was my contacting government officials in Abeokuta to try to get them to move on this on this proposal.

[Assistant] A lot of political layers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I continued teaching. Right. But I would work on that during school breaks for, you know, for that first year that I was there. But by the end of the first year, it was clear that it wasn't going to happen. He maybe he went overseas or he was caught up in other projects that he was working on. And so it just never, it never took off. We got it to a proposal point and we submitted it to the government, but then no funding.

[Assistant] When you say that you worked on that project during school breaks for that first year, what do you mean? What was your work in that regard?

[User] Well, it was, um. It was going to meet him in Ibadan and talk about the project and what we wanted to have happen in the museum. And then it was my contacting government officials in Abeokuta to try to get them to move on this on this proposal.

[Assistant] A lot of political layers.

[User] Yeah, and nothing came of it. That's all I can say.

[Assistant] But it planted a seed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was, um. It was going to meet him in Ibadan and talk about the project and what we wanted to have happen in the museum. And then it was my contacting government officials in Abeokuta to try to get them to move on this on this proposal.

[Assistant] A lot of political layers.

[User] Yeah, and nothing came of it. That's all I can say.

[Assistant] But it planted a seed.

[User] Planted the seed, and I don't know if there is a museum in Abeokuta now. I don't know. But that's one of the things we tried.

[Assistant] So when you were up in Ibadan talking with Biobaku, I'm assuming you were talking with him in English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and nothing came of it. That's all I can say.

[Assistant] But it planted a seed.

[User] Planted the seed, and I don't know if there is a museum in Abeokuta now. I don't know. But that's one of the things we tried.

[Assistant] So when you were up in Ibadan talking with Biobaku, I'm assuming you were talking with him in English.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And when you were at the sports club in Abeokuta with your Yoruba colleagues, was the language of the club English, among the Yoruba there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And when you were at the sports club in Abeokuta with your Yoruba colleagues, was the language of the club English, among the Yoruba there?

[User] Yeah, pretty much. Because they were all educated. They were either, you know, they were teachers in secondary school or the other members of the club were, you know, government officials and lawyers and doctors. You know, it was the male, and it was male. It was a men's club. And the British, you know, out of the British tradition, and they were the elite in the community. They were the professionals or the government officials because the club itself was in an area that was known as the GRA, the government reservation area, where colonial houses had been built for the colonial officials. And along with that, there was a swimming pool and, you know, a golf course and a tennis court.

[Assistant] All British?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly. And then inherited by the Yoruba and the Nigerians who took over.

[Assistant] So your first year eventually comes to an end?