[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two or three flights. And so they were all canceled. And they put us up for a week in New York until they decided where to send the groups.

[Assistant] All 300?

[User] Yes. Oh, big bill.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so there were people who had trained at other places?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For other projects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, big bill.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so there were people who had trained at other places?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] For other projects?

[User] I'm not certain now what their numbers of their group was. They were not, um, they were not located near our training area.

[Assistant] Right. Were they all chicken people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure. My memory fails in that respect because I didn't pay much attention to those groups. I do know that we were sent, after a week in New York, they finally decided to send our India 16 to Israel.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the other groups, one was sent to Guam and I'm not sure where the other one was sent.

[Assistant] Guam?

[User] Yeah. And at any rate, we went to Israel and we were given a tour of the country for a week by bus, which was really nice.

[Assistant] Was that just a gesture on the part of the Israeli government?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And at any rate, we went to Israel and we were given a tour of the country for a week by bus, which was really nice.

[Assistant] Was that just a gesture on the part of the Israeli government?

[User] I don't think they knew where to send us. They were probably working out the details with the.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And finally after that they sent us to the kibbutz to work, the different. We were split up on three different kibbutzim and then we just filled in their summer labor group.

[Assistant] When you went, when you were assigned out to a kibbutz, was it, well, you'll be here for six weeks, eight weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think they knew where to send us. They were probably working out the details with the.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And finally after that they sent us to the kibbutz to work, the different. We were split up on three different kibbutzim and then we just filled in their summer labor group.

[Assistant] When you went, when you were assigned out to a kibbutz, was it, well, you'll be here for six weeks, eight weeks?

[User] They had no idea how long.

[Assistant] It was open ended?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had no idea how long.

[Assistant] It was open ended?

[User] It was open ended. We ended up being in Israel 40 days and 40 nights. So that was a very unique experience. And actually that's where I first suffered food shock.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Because they only served us certain things to eat. And we were working really hard in the fields, picking, weeding, all very physical labor. So we were up at 5:30 or 5:00 in the morning and.

[Assistant] Wow. Where was the kibbutz that you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they only served us certain things to eat. And we were working really hard in the fields, picking, weeding, all very physical labor. So we were up at 5:30 or 5:00 in the morning and.

[Assistant] Wow. Where was the kibbutz that you were?

[User] Um, we were near the northern part of Israel.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Ramat.

[Assistant] Yeah. You weren't down in the Negev?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the other thing that they always served every meal was cucumbers, tomatoes, and eggs, hard boiled eggs. I liked hard boiled eggs and sour cream on it. They called it laban.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had never had sour cream like that before or whatever. It's kind of like a yogurt, a thick yogurt.

[Assistant] Right, yeah.

[User] At any rate, that was, the food was really hard to get it used to, I mean, because we were starving. And the best time of the day was when about 4:00 in the afternoon when they had tea and we could have bread. They had really good bread and butter.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a Peace Corps? Did Peace Corps stay in touch with you while you were on the kibbutz? And like every week or so say, well, we're working on it or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had never had sour cream like that before or whatever. It's kind of like a yogurt, a thick yogurt.

[Assistant] Right, yeah.

[User] At any rate, that was, the food was really hard to get it used to, I mean, because we were starving. And the best time of the day was when about 4:00 in the afternoon when they had tea and we could have bread. They had really good bread and butter.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a Peace Corps? Did Peace Corps stay in touch with you while you were on the kibbutz? And like every week or so say, well, we're working on it or?

[User] We inquired, but we didn't hear a whole lot.

[Assistant] Did you, were you beginning to get discouraged, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At any rate, that was, the food was really hard to get it used to, I mean, because we were starving. And the best time of the day was when about 4:00 in the afternoon when they had tea and we could have bread. They had really good bread and butter.

[Assistant] During this time, was there a Peace Corps? Did Peace Corps stay in touch with you while you were on the kibbutz? And like every week or so say, well, we're working on it or?

[User] We inquired, but we didn't hear a whole lot.

[Assistant] Did you, were you beginning to get discouraged, I mean?

[User] No, we were enjoying it. We, we loved.

[Assistant] How many of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were enjoying it. We, we loved.

[Assistant] How many of you?

[User] There were about 30 of us on this kibbutz, and we got together and did some singing with the Hebrew people and in the evenings and participated in some of their activities, although they only spoke Hebrew. And of course we had no.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So we had a real language problem. But yeah, they were, they were very helpful as best they could. And considering we couldn't speak.

[Assistant] There were no Hindi speakers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were about 30 of us on this kibbutz, and we got together and did some singing with the Hebrew people and in the evenings and participated in some of their activities, although they only spoke Hebrew. And of course we had no.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So we had a real language problem. But yeah, they were, they were very helpful as best they could. And considering we couldn't speak.

[Assistant] There were no Hindi speakers.

[User] No, of course. But.

[Assistant] Did you begin, you must have begun to lose your Hindi then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, we probably lost some.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because you know, if you don't keep at it, boy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] At any rate, um, we did do a lot of cultural things as I recall. There were some things we watched them do and they used to have entertainment in the evening of some kind. There was no TV or anything like that. We were just in little shacks with, in fact, we had bedbugs. I mean, it was pretty bad.

[Assistant] But it was an introduction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because you know, if you don't keep at it, boy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] At any rate, um, we did do a lot of cultural things as I recall. There were some things we watched them do and they used to have entertainment in the evening of some kind. There was no TV or anything like that. We were just in little shacks with, in fact, we had bedbugs. I mean, it was pretty bad.

[Assistant] But it was an introduction.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] To another part of the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] To another part of the world.

[User] Yeah, I mean.

[Assistant] Finally, after.

[User] After 30 or 40 days and 40 nights, we were sent to India and we went to New Delhi.

[Assistant] And you flew in as a group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After 30 or 40 days and 40 nights, we were sent to India and we went to New Delhi.

[Assistant] And you flew in as a group?

[User] Yes, we flew in. They had gathered all of us together. It was good to see everybody again. And yeah, the one thing I really remember about our whole group is that it was the first time I was ever with a lot of people that thought the same way I did. I mean, they must have selected us by personal psychological characteristics, I'm sure.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was amazing that there were so many that thought the same way. At any rate, we were sent to India and New Delhi and I think we were just there a few days and then they sent us out to our sites.

[Assistant] While you were in New Delhi, did you, you got your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we flew in. They had gathered all of us together. It was good to see everybody again. And yeah, the one thing I really remember about our whole group is that it was the first time I was ever with a lot of people that thought the same way I did. I mean, they must have selected us by personal psychological characteristics, I'm sure.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was amazing that there were so many that thought the same way. At any rate, we were sent to India and New Delhi and I think we were just there a few days and then they sent us out to our sites.

[Assistant] While you were in New Delhi, did you, you got your assignment?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you became aware of who your partner would be. Did you have, were you at all familiar with the area you were being sent to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you became aware of who your partner would be. Did you have, were you at all familiar with the area you were being sent to?

[User] No, um, I was sent to Satara, Maharashtra, which was south of Pune, and it is in central India about a day and a half trip from Bombay.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Um, the area was once the, I guess, the capital of the kingdom in that the Maharaja, the Marathi kingdom. But it was a very difficult area to get to. We had to go by train to Pune and then by bus to Satara and it was very windy up mountains, around hairpin curves and things like that. So very isolated.

[Assistant] How many of you were at that point, when you're on the bus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, um, I was sent to Satara, Maharashtra, which was south of Pune, and it is in central India about a day and a half trip from Bombay.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Um, the area was once the, I guess, the capital of the kingdom in that the Maharaja, the Marathi kingdom. But it was a very difficult area to get to. We had to go by train to Pune and then by bus to Satara and it was very windy up mountains, around hairpin curves and things like that. So very isolated.

[Assistant] How many of you were at that point, when you're on the bus?

[User] There were, there were just two of us. Another girl and I were sent to serve in Satara.

[Assistant] At what point did you meet an Indian counterpart who was going to guide your way through this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, the area was once the, I guess, the capital of the kingdom in that the Maharaja, the Marathi kingdom. But it was a very difficult area to get to. We had to go by train to Pune and then by bus to Satara and it was very windy up mountains, around hairpin curves and things like that. So very isolated.

[Assistant] How many of you were at that point, when you're on the bus?

[User] There were, there were just two of us. Another girl and I were sent to serve in Satara.

[Assistant] At what point did you meet an Indian counterpart who was going to guide your way through this?

[User] As soon as we got there, we were greeted.

[Assistant] Got to where, there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got to Satara. We were greeted by a mister, Dr. Bhave, B- H-A-V-E. He was the poultry officer there, and he showed us where we were going to stay. He had temporary housing set up for us.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And as I recall, I'm not sure if we stayed in one of their little hotel, and they don't call them hotels, hostels or something like that for a couple of days.

[Assistant] Guesthouse.

[User] Guesthouse or something like that, until they found a place for us.

[Assistant] They, they found the place where, they being just Dr. Bhave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guesthouse or something like that, until they found a place for us.

[Assistant] They, they found the place where, they being just Dr. Bhave?

[User] Yes, the government was required to supply housing for us.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] That was part of the deal.

[Assistant] Yeah, it's a gift from Dr. Bhave. And, um. The, uh. So you had a week or two to settle into the setting, or did you go to work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was part of the deal.

[Assistant] Yeah, it's a gift from Dr. Bhave. And, um. The, uh. So you had a week or two to settle into the setting, or did you go to work?

[User] I don't think either. We went to work right away.

[Assistant] You didn't?

[User] We went to, we went to work right away.

[Assistant] Where was work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think either. We went to work right away.

[Assistant] You didn't?

[User] We went to, we went to work right away.

[Assistant] Where was work?

[User] We would go down to the poultry office. And at that point, they had, they not only had poultry, they had Brahma bulls and several other things. They did artificial insemination with the bulls.

[Assistant] They had an office and they had bulls in the office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had a, you know, the stable. I mean, the whole. The office was on several acres of land, and they had their main interest at that point was agriculture in terms of artificial insemination for building up the breed of Brahma bulls.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because they used those to pull their carts still. There were no poultry.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] We were to start it.

[Assistant] All right. You didn't, did you. you didn't know that going in or you did? And was it a Ministry of Agriculture substation or was it a regional, provincial?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Poultry project office. They, they were stationed throughout India.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because later on when I moved up to Udaipur, it was the same setup. You have a poultry project. I guess Dr. Bhave had just been stationed there. I'm not certain how long he had been there. At any rate, as I recall, we were, we were supposed to go out and meet people and talk them into raising chickens.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] There were no chickens to be had yet. There were. And there was nothing in sight. So we had to start from scratch there to try to get people interested in raising the chickens.

[Assistant] Were there any chickens anywhere in the neighborhood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because later on when I moved up to Udaipur, it was the same setup. You have a poultry project. I guess Dr. Bhave had just been stationed there. I'm not certain how long he had been there. At any rate, as I recall, we were, we were supposed to go out and meet people and talk them into raising chickens.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] There were no chickens to be had yet. There were. And there was nothing in sight. So we had to start from scratch there to try to get people interested in raising the chickens.

[Assistant] Were there any chickens anywhere in the neighborhood?

[User] No, just deshi, wild chickens, of course, were nothing like the breeds that would be the good egg layer.

[Assistant] But when you, I don't know what the Hindi word for chicken is, but when you went to a, when you went somewhere and began talking about it, people at least had some preconception of what you were talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were no chickens to be had yet. There were. And there was nothing in sight. So we had to start from scratch there to try to get people interested in raising the chickens.

[Assistant] Were there any chickens anywhere in the neighborhood?

[User] No, just deshi, wild chickens, of course, were nothing like the breeds that would be the good egg layer.

[Assistant] But when you, I don't know what the Hindi word for chicken is, but when you went to a, when you went somewhere and began talking about it, people at least had some preconception of what you were talking about?

[User] [coughs] Sorry.

[Assistant] All right, let's try.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [coughs] Sorry.

[Assistant] All right, let's try.

[User] All right, I. When we went to try to begin training people to raise chickens. First of all, we were introduced to some fairly wealthy people or people that Dr. Bhave thought might be interested in raising chickens. And it was our job to try to convince them it would be worth their while to do so. And see, eggs were selling for like a rupee apiece.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that's like a dollar in our money apiece. So people could see that they were worth, it was worth getting into, but they didn't know anything about how to raise the day old chicks to the later stage, etcetera. And it was our job to help people with that transition.

[Assistant] Did you have any incentives you could offer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The government was supposed to give them day-old chicks at a fairly economical price. A very economical price. And the, the people that were interested in raising them were supposed to go through a training program.

[Assistant] Run by?

[User] Run by the state or the government. At any rate, we, it was our job to just convince them that they would be able to make some money out of this. And then if they did raise, start the chickens, then we would do the vaccinating and the animal husbandry that went along with trying to keep them alive.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] The problem in that area was, of course, nobody had any chickens and they weren't used to any other chickens other than the wild ones that ran around and just fed themselves. So they, our program taught people how to use a deep litter system in enclosed, well ventilated houses. Chicken houses that allowed you to keep several hundred chickens at a time. And you could make a pretty good profit from that.

[Assistant] Eggs were used for food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The problem in that area was, of course, nobody had any chickens and they weren't used to any other chickens other than the wild ones that ran around and just fed themselves. So they, our program taught people how to use a deep litter system in enclosed, well ventilated houses. Chicken houses that allowed you to keep several hundred chickens at a time. And you could make a pretty good profit from that.

[Assistant] Eggs were used for food?

[User] At that time, eggs were used as an antiseptic to put on a cut.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Most Indians did not eat eggs.

[Assistant] So there was a double agenda. I mean, not only, not only raising chickens, but convincing people to eat the eggs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time, eggs were used as an antiseptic to put on a cut.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Most Indians did not eat eggs.

[Assistant] So there was a double agenda. I mean, not only, not only raising chickens, but convincing people to eat the eggs.

[User] Yes, I spent a lot of time, especially later on, up in Rajasthan, working on teaching people how to cook with eggs. And I wrote some cookbooks that are, compiled some cookbooks and things like that.

[Assistant] So within the culture of the area you were in, did eggs have any function?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most Indians did not eat eggs.

[Assistant] So there was a double agenda. I mean, not only, not only raising chickens, but convincing people to eat the eggs.

[User] Yes, I spent a lot of time, especially later on, up in Rajasthan, working on teaching people how to cook with eggs. And I wrote some cookbooks that are, compiled some cookbooks and things like that.

[Assistant] So within the culture of the area you were in, did eggs have any function?

[User] Yes. Maharashtra was more advanced because the English had been there. So there were restaurants that would serve scrambled eggs and omelets. They were very good at making omelets. And some people ate those, but they still thought of eggs as having life because they used deshi eggs, which were the eggs that the male would have fertilized the female. And the people that were pure vegetarians did not feel they could eat those types of eggs. So part of our job was to convince them that a chicken gives an egg every day, just as a cow gives milk, and that we called them vegetarian eggs. And the chickens were not allowed to run loose. They were kept inside a house. So it was more pure.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of interesting because you're carrying a double burden. I mean, one is to teach people to raise chickens, but two is to convince people that they're worth eating, integrating into diet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I spent a lot of time, especially later on, up in Rajasthan, working on teaching people how to cook with eggs. And I wrote some cookbooks that are, compiled some cookbooks and things like that.

[Assistant] So within the culture of the area you were in, did eggs have any function?

[User] Yes. Maharashtra was more advanced because the English had been there. So there were restaurants that would serve scrambled eggs and omelets. They were very good at making omelets. And some people ate those, but they still thought of eggs as having life because they used deshi eggs, which were the eggs that the male would have fertilized the female. And the people that were pure vegetarians did not feel they could eat those types of eggs. So part of our job was to convince them that a chicken gives an egg every day, just as a cow gives milk, and that we called them vegetarian eggs. And the chickens were not allowed to run loose. They were kept inside a house. So it was more pure.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of interesting because you're carrying a double burden. I mean, one is to teach people to raise chickens, but two is to convince people that they're worth eating, integrating into diet.

[User] That was part of the reason they wanted us to go to India with this project, because so many people in the rural areas had such poor nutrition, their protein in their diet was nil and an egg would give you a lot of protein as well as be a way to get money in their pocket. This, the other thing about marketing eggs was that it didn't fit into the caste system. Anybody could do it and anybody could make money from it. And you wouldn't be criticized or condemned by your caste because you were doing it.

[Assistant] And the government of India had committed to this kind of program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Maharashtra was more advanced because the English had been there. So there were restaurants that would serve scrambled eggs and omelets. They were very good at making omelets. And some people ate those, but they still thought of eggs as having life because they used deshi eggs, which were the eggs that the male would have fertilized the female. And the people that were pure vegetarians did not feel they could eat those types of eggs. So part of our job was to convince them that a chicken gives an egg every day, just as a cow gives milk, and that we called them vegetarian eggs. And the chickens were not allowed to run loose. They were kept inside a house. So it was more pure.

[Assistant] Well, it's kind of interesting because you're carrying a double burden. I mean, one is to teach people to raise chickens, but two is to convince people that they're worth eating, integrating into diet.

[User] That was part of the reason they wanted us to go to India with this project, because so many people in the rural areas had such poor nutrition, their protein in their diet was nil and an egg would give you a lot of protein as well as be a way to get money in their pocket. This, the other thing about marketing eggs was that it didn't fit into the caste system. Anybody could do it and anybody could make money from it. And you wouldn't be criticized or condemned by your caste because you were doing it.

[Assistant] And the government of India had committed to this kind of program.

[User] Right, they had committed to it. They, they felt it would be a very worthwhile program.

[Assistant] Why didn't they have Indians doing what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was part of the reason they wanted us to go to India with this project, because so many people in the rural areas had such poor nutrition, their protein in their diet was nil and an egg would give you a lot of protein as well as be a way to get money in their pocket. This, the other thing about marketing eggs was that it didn't fit into the caste system. Anybody could do it and anybody could make money from it. And you wouldn't be criticized or condemned by your caste because you were doing it.

[Assistant] And the government of India had committed to this kind of program.

[User] Right, they had committed to it. They, they felt it would be a very worthwhile program.

[Assistant] Why didn't they have Indians doing what you were doing?

[User] That, it's an interesting concept. They don't trust them, their own people. They trusted us more than they trusted their own people.

[Assistant] Did Dr. Bhave know your background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If he did, he probably wouldn't have ever taken us. But they, the Indians were very open to people from other countries, at least in Maharashtra. I have to say this.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Very different up in Rajasthan. But in Maharashtra they were very open. And they really enjoyed having foreigners, quote unquote, come to their house and talk to them. They, they just, I know that they said several times that they just didn't trust so-and-so. Da da da da da.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] About doing these types of things. But if we are telling them it is true, then this must be so.

[Assistant] Yeah. Let's just talk generally about your living conditions, the kind of housing you had, what you did for meals, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had a rough time at first. I just could not stand Indian food.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] The only thing I could eat is rice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I couldn't stand curry or anything and I lost so much weight. I was down to skin and bones. Finally, I got used so I could eat some of it. In Maharashtra they put so much spice in it. When you ate it, your eyes would water, your stomach would jump and everything else. So we had a lot of problems with amoebic dysentery and of course they gave us gamma globulin shots and all kinds of things and tetramycin and antibiotics all the time. But the whole time we were there, three years, we had the dysentery.

[Assistant] Did you get direct medical support from the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only thing I could eat is rice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I couldn't stand curry or anything and I lost so much weight. I was down to skin and bones. Finally, I got used so I could eat some of it. In Maharashtra they put so much spice in it. When you ate it, your eyes would water, your stomach would jump and everything else. So we had a lot of problems with amoebic dysentery and of course they gave us gamma globulin shots and all kinds of things and tetramycin and antibiotics all the time. But the whole time we were there, three years, we had the dysentery.

[Assistant] Did you get direct medical support from the Peace Corps?

[User] Yes. Every three months they took us in and doctored us up.

[Assistant] Oh. How far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I couldn't stand curry or anything and I lost so much weight. I was down to skin and bones. Finally, I got used so I could eat some of it. In Maharashtra they put so much spice in it. When you ate it, your eyes would water, your stomach would jump and everything else. So we had a lot of problems with amoebic dysentery and of course they gave us gamma globulin shots and all kinds of things and tetramycin and antibiotics all the time. But the whole time we were there, three years, we had the dysentery.

[Assistant] Did you get direct medical support from the Peace Corps?

[User] Yes. Every three months they took us in and doctored us up.

[Assistant] Oh. How far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?

[User] Uh, we had to go all the way to Delhi.

[Assistant] Can you turn your mike just a little like that? Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Every three months they took us in and doctored us up.

[Assistant] Oh. How far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?

[User] Uh, we had to go all the way to Delhi.

[Assistant] Can you turn your mike just a little like that? Yeah.

[User] We had to go all the way to New Delhi.

[Assistant] How far is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, we had to go all the way to Delhi.

[Assistant] Can you turn your mike just a little like that? Yeah.

[User] We had to go all the way to New Delhi.

[Assistant] How far is that?

[User] And that would have been, let's see, about a day's trip to Pune. A day's trip from Pune to Bombay, another day's trip from Bombay up to New Delhi.

[Assistant] If you were ragingly ill, you weren't going to do that trip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to go all the way to New Delhi.

[Assistant] How far is that?

[User] And that would have been, let's see, about a day's trip to Pune. A day's trip from Pune to Bombay, another day's trip from Bombay up to New Delhi.

[Assistant] If you were ragingly ill, you weren't going to do that trip.

[User] No. Well, we got used to it.

[Assistant] To the trip?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, it just was something you lived with.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The, um, the main things we had problems with were giardia and amoebic dysentery.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But our housing itself, we started out, we had very poor sanitary conditions. A hole, a hole in a little hut. And, you know, the old outhouse business. And we did move into finally a house that was, it was solid clay walls. It was cooler. And we just had very simple furniture and tin plates. And we didn't, we didn't ever fancy anything up, we just.

[Assistant] What did you do for water, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it always tasted horrible but.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We got, they used to have something called Nimbu Pani, which was a lemon, a lemon sweetened lemonade thing that you could put in water. And that helped us to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, survive because I couldn't stand the water. And a lot of times we had to put iodine in it, too.

[Assistant] Let's go six months after you were in town. And was there a point at which you began thinking? How did your job evolve, I should say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got, they used to have something called Nimbu Pani, which was a lemon, a lemon sweetened lemonade thing that you could put in water. And that helped us to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, survive because I couldn't stand the water. And a lot of times we had to put iodine in it, too.

[Assistant] Let's go six months after you were in town. And was there a point at which you began thinking? How did your job evolve, I should say?

[User] After I got used to the food and got a little more strength, we had to ride bicycles everywhere. So we had to get our physical strength up to be able to do that.

[Assistant] Was most of what you did in conjunction with the woman, your partner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, survive because I couldn't stand the water. And a lot of times we had to put iodine in it, too.

[Assistant] Let's go six months after you were in town. And was there a point at which you began thinking? How did your job evolve, I should say?

[User] After I got used to the food and got a little more strength, we had to ride bicycles everywhere. So we had to get our physical strength up to be able to do that.

[Assistant] Was most of what you did in conjunction with the woman, your partner?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So the two of you?

[User] Yes. We pretty much went together every place we went. And she was from Texas and she had a slow Texan drawl.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And for some reason, they could understand her much better than me. I spoke too fast for them. So eventually, after about six months, I did learn how to slow way down and speak very carefully and it was easier for them to follow me. But I, uh, I think every three months, as I said, we went in for medical treatment. Sometimes we went to Bombay also, as I recall. Other times we went to New Delhi.

[Assistant] When did the first chicken arrive in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And for some reason, they could understand her much better than me. I spoke too fast for them. So eventually, after about six months, I did learn how to slow way down and speak very carefully and it was easier for them to follow me. But I, uh, I think every three months, as I said, we went in for medical treatment. Sometimes we went to Bombay also, as I recall. Other times we went to New Delhi.

[Assistant] When did the first chicken arrive in the town?

[User] It took us a while to get chicken started. We did a lot of talking and they were starting to come. It took us almost several months though, several months to get that particular project going. And then I think we had about ten people that were interested in doing it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, and I wasn't there. I moved up to Rajasthan.

[Assistant] After how long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took us a while to get chicken started. We did a lot of talking and they were starting to come. It took us almost several months though, several months to get that particular project going. And then I think we had about ten people that were interested in doing it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, and I wasn't there. I moved up to Rajasthan.

[Assistant] After how long?

[User] After about a year.

[Assistant] Okay. So at the end of the year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, and I wasn't there. I moved up to Rajasthan.

[Assistant] After how long?

[User] After about a year.

[Assistant] Okay. So at the end of the year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What had you accomplished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After about a year.

[Assistant] Okay. So at the end of the year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What had you accomplished?

[User] Well, we had about ten people that were very interested in doing, raising the chickens, and they were our model.

[Assistant] But it hadn't happened yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had about ten people that were very interested in doing, raising the chickens, and they were our model.

[Assistant] But it hadn't happened yet?

[User] I don't remember whether, I think we at least had some of them with the chickens. The others were on order.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So whether they had finally gotten, I can't remember Maharashtra as much as I do Rajasthan because that's where we.

[Assistant] Was anyone evaluating, I mean, whether it was from the Indian side or Peace Corps side, to give you a sense of whether you were moving appropriately or achieving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had people come to visit us from time to time and try to give us encouragement. I don't think they were worried so much that it was taking a while to get this done, especially here where nobody ever, nobody even had chickens.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] It takes a while to do all the convincing and the government was slow in getting the chickens and all that type of thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So before you go through all that red tape.

[Assistant] Other than Dr. Bhave, did you have any Indian counterparts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It takes a while to do all the convincing and the government was slow in getting the chickens and all that type of thing.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So before you go through all that red tape.

[Assistant] Other than Dr. Bhave, did you have any Indian counterparts?

[User] I believe there was an Indian fellow who was supposed to also be working in that project, but I'm not sure if he was in the poultry area.

[Assistant] Did he have a job title? It's very important in some structures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So before you go through all that red tape.

[Assistant] Other than Dr. Bhave, did you have any Indian counterparts?

[User] I believe there was an Indian fellow who was supposed to also be working in that project, but I'm not sure if he was in the poultry area.

[Assistant] Did he have a job title? It's very important in some structures.

[User] Poultry trainee? Poultry expert? I don't know. They called us poultry expert.

[Assistant] How did people in the village perceived you, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Poultry trainee? Poultry expert? I don't know. They called us poultry expert.

[Assistant] How did people in the village perceived you, I mean?

[User] Actually, it was a big city.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] We were, we went to the outskirts of the city, but the city itself was very big, very primitive but big.

[Assistant] The people with whom you worked, I mean, what was their sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were, we went to the outskirts of the city, but the city itself was very big, very primitive but big.

[Assistant] The people with whom you worked, I mean, what was their sense?

[User] They seem to, as I say, in Maharashtra they were used to the English and they, they thought of us as celebrities practically.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] We were the only show on the block.

[Assistant] Because of who you are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They seem to, as I say, in Maharashtra they were used to the English and they, they thought of us as celebrities practically.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] We were the only show on the block.

[Assistant] Because of who you are?

[User] Right. They weren't, no other foreigners were there I don't believe.

[Assistant] Some people going into another culture find what's called an informant or a mentor or, you know, someone from that culture with whom they can communicate more readily. And then was there anyone who played that role that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. They weren't, no other foreigners were there I don't believe.

[Assistant] Some people going into another culture find what's called an informant or a mentor or, you know, someone from that culture with whom they can communicate more readily. And then was there anyone who played that role that you recall?

[User] Hmm. Dr. Bhave tried to answer as many questions about things as he could.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I don't recall anybody else helping us in that respect.

[Assistant] But you wouldn't go out and drink beer with Dr. Bhave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Dr. Bhave tried to answer as many questions about things as he could.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I don't recall anybody else helping us in that respect.

[Assistant] But you wouldn't go out and drink beer with Dr. Bhave?

[User] Oh no, I don't drink beer.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, no.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We kept very much to ourselves.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] We didn't, we didn't want to get into that kind of thing, not in those days.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah, but you still felt comfortable in the setting you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were very careful. I don't.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I don't remember whether my roommate drank beer or anything like that, but I don't even know if beer was, I guess it was available.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I didn't drink beer. I don't remember. I can't remember her drinking it either.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had no hesitation, though, about putting the two of you together up in this obscure area, remote area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember whether my roommate drank beer or anything like that, but I don't even know if beer was, I guess it was available.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I didn't drink beer. I don't remember. I can't remember her drinking it either.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had no hesitation, though, about putting the two of you together up in this obscure area, remote area?

[User] I guess not. They did have a couple of other volunteers come out to see us every now and then, just to see if we were alive.

[Assistant] To show them how bad it can be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I didn't drink beer. I don't remember. I can't remember her drinking it either.

[Assistant] Peace Corps had no hesitation, though, about putting the two of you together up in this obscure area, remote area?

[User] I guess not. They did have a couple of other volunteers come out to see us every now and then, just to see if we were alive.

[Assistant] To show them how bad it can be.

[User] See how it's going.

[Assistant] So were you considered to be on the, on the cutting edge, you know, a hardship kind of post?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess not. They did have a couple of other volunteers come out to see us every now and then, just to see if we were alive.

[Assistant] To show them how bad it can be.

[User] See how it's going.

[Assistant] So were you considered to be on the, on the cutting edge, you know, a hardship kind of post?

[User] Um, actually I thought it, Maharashtra was, as I say, a fairly, at least they had a fairly good attitude towards foreigners. So we didn't have it as hard as we did in Rajasthan when I went up there. But the hard part in Maharashtra was simply the fact that nobody had done the chickens and we had to get somebody to prove it could be done. So that was hard. We had to do a lot of visiting. We went to a lot of social functions to try and talked and talked and talked about it.

[Assistant] Well, what kind of social functions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See how it's going.

[Assistant] So were you considered to be on the, on the cutting edge, you know, a hardship kind of post?

[User] Um, actually I thought it, Maharashtra was, as I say, a fairly, at least they had a fairly good attitude towards foreigners. So we didn't have it as hard as we did in Rajasthan when I went up there. But the hard part in Maharashtra was simply the fact that nobody had done the chickens and we had to get somebody to prove it could be done. So that was hard. We had to do a lot of visiting. We went to a lot of social functions to try and talked and talked and talked about it.

[Assistant] Well, what kind of social functions?

[User] Oh, weddings. If somebody was having a dinner at their home, we would, they'd invite us. A lot of people invited us to places.

[Assistant] Now, most of your day, including the social events, you were working and expressing yourself in English, not Hindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, weddings. If somebody was having a dinner at their home, we would, they'd invite us. A lot of people invited us to places.

[Assistant] Now, most of your day, including the social events, you were working and expressing yourself in English, not Hindi?

[User] In Maharashtra, we didn't have to use as much Hindi because they spoke, a lot of people spoke English.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they had quite a group of the Parsis or Zoroastrian religion that were very educated and very wealthy in their, in that area. And they were thinking of starting a project.

[Assistant] And so as you came to the end of the first year, had you, did you feel you would made progress in the use of Hindi or was it just sort of there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Maharashtra, we didn't have to use as much Hindi because they spoke, a lot of people spoke English.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they had quite a group of the Parsis or Zoroastrian religion that were very educated and very wealthy in their, in that area. And they were thinking of starting a project.

[Assistant] And so as you came to the end of the first year, had you, did you feel you would made progress in the use of Hindi or was it just sort of there?

[User] Um, we used Hindi, and I think. I'm trying to remember the difference between Rajasthan and Maharashtra because I, most of my positive things I think of in Rajasthan, that was our two years up there. At any rate, um, I'm trying to think whether we had a poultry fair. Sometimes we did displays like that where we had a poultry fair or an agricultural fair, where we would display ways to raise chickens and graphs on how to make money with it and all that type of thing. And do some, uh, get, put out literature and so forth of explaining about eggs and how to raise chickens. And we would also try to get people to sign up to take training classes. And sometimes I know at these fairs we would do cooking demonstrations and things. Show people how to use the eggs.

[Assistant] Just the eggs? The chickens, no?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had quite a group of the Parsis or Zoroastrian religion that were very educated and very wealthy in their, in that area. And they were thinking of starting a project.

[Assistant] And so as you came to the end of the first year, had you, did you feel you would made progress in the use of Hindi or was it just sort of there?

[User] Um, we used Hindi, and I think. I'm trying to remember the difference between Rajasthan and Maharashtra because I, most of my positive things I think of in Rajasthan, that was our two years up there. At any rate, um, I'm trying to think whether we had a poultry fair. Sometimes we did displays like that where we had a poultry fair or an agricultural fair, where we would display ways to raise chickens and graphs on how to make money with it and all that type of thing. And do some, uh, get, put out literature and so forth of explaining about eggs and how to raise chickens. And we would also try to get people to sign up to take training classes. And sometimes I know at these fairs we would do cooking demonstrations and things. Show people how to use the eggs.

[Assistant] Just the eggs? The chickens, no?

[User] At that time we weren't into meat. Later on, we did get into that.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Christmas? I mean, it must have been a tough time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, we used Hindi, and I think. I'm trying to remember the difference between Rajasthan and Maharashtra because I, most of my positive things I think of in Rajasthan, that was our two years up there. At any rate, um, I'm trying to think whether we had a poultry fair. Sometimes we did displays like that where we had a poultry fair or an agricultural fair, where we would display ways to raise chickens and graphs on how to make money with it and all that type of thing. And do some, uh, get, put out literature and so forth of explaining about eggs and how to raise chickens. And we would also try to get people to sign up to take training classes. And sometimes I know at these fairs we would do cooking demonstrations and things. Show people how to use the eggs.

[Assistant] Just the eggs? The chickens, no?

[User] At that time we weren't into meat. Later on, we did get into that.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Christmas? I mean, it must have been a tough time.

[User] Well, growing up with six kids.

[Assistant] But did you attempt to have a Christmas celebration?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, growing up with six kids.

[Assistant] But did you attempt to have a Christmas celebration?

[User] I think we did. I can't even remember it.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I don't remember it. It was, things like that didn't bother me that much.

[Assistant] So you don't recall being homesick or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we did. I can't even remember it.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I don't remember it. It was, things like that didn't bother me that much.

[Assistant] So you don't recall being homesick or?

[User] No. It wasn't. No. I was in love with my husband-to-be. That was my big thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else about the first year? And did, did you feel the training had prepared you for this or that they had thrown you curves or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember it. It was, things like that didn't bother me that much.

[Assistant] So you don't recall being homesick or?

[User] No. It wasn't. No. I was in love with my husband-to-be. That was my big thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else about the first year? And did, did you feel the training had prepared you for this or that they had thrown you curves or?

[User] They had taught us from the beginning to be flexible. They said, you really need to be flexible. You don't know what you're going to encounter. Every situation is different. So we just rolled with the punches.

[Assistant] And did you have any sense of the role that Peace Corps was playing in your life at that point, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It wasn't. No. I was in love with my husband-to-be. That was my big thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else about the first year? And did, did you feel the training had prepared you for this or that they had thrown you curves or?

[User] They had taught us from the beginning to be flexible. They said, you really need to be flexible. You don't know what you're going to encounter. Every situation is different. So we just rolled with the punches.

[Assistant] And did you have any sense of the role that Peace Corps was playing in your life at that point, I mean?

[User] I don't know if I got the sense then or I have gotten it later, that I think they mainly wanted us to just experience another culture and come back and share what we had learned with Americans here, because so many people have never been in another culture like that.

[Assistant] There wasn't any sense of a push to see that you ended up with 1,000 chicken farmers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Dad was not happy with it. He was really pleased and really happy that I had done so well flying and that he was the one that taught me how to fly, but I can just picture him sitting there, reading the news every night, and reading about another couple of airplanes shot down.

[Assistant] Did you have any close calls when you were over there yourself?

[User] I never got hit. I had lots of projectiles go by me very close but never got hit. I would say not really, not really any close calls.

[Assistant] That’s tough.

[User] Yes, it obviously bothered him a lot more than it bothered me. People ask me if I was scared. I don’t know that I’d use the word “scared.” I was very apprehensive. When you’ve got tracers coming by your canopy, it’ll get your attention. Those really light up the sky, but the ones that are a lot more dangerous were the radar-guided antiaircraft guns, where they’d have a radar tracking you, feeding that information to a computer, and the computer aims the guns at you. It knew how to lead you, it knew where you were going, and that’s why when you were flying over North Vietnam, you never flew in a straight line for more than 4 seconds at a time. You were constantly jinking, what we call jinking, so you might be straight for a couple of seconds, looking somewhere, and then it’s time to change altitude, change direction, because this radar is projecting your flight path and it’s going to put a bullet—sometimes these were big bullets; the normal ones were 57-millimeter, which is golly, 57-millimeters is almost a 3-inch shell—and they could put it right where you’re going to be in 8 seconds, so you don’t want to be there 8 seconds from now.

[Assistant] Was that something you had practiced training before you went, or was that something that they had told you when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never got hit. I had lots of projectiles go by me very close but never got hit. I would say not really, not really any close calls.

[Assistant] That’s tough.

[User] Yes, it obviously bothered him a lot more than it bothered me. People ask me if I was scared. I don’t know that I’d use the word “scared.” I was very apprehensive. When you’ve got tracers coming by your canopy, it’ll get your attention. Those really light up the sky, but the ones that are a lot more dangerous were the radar-guided antiaircraft guns, where they’d have a radar tracking you, feeding that information to a computer, and the computer aims the guns at you. It knew how to lead you, it knew where you were going, and that’s why when you were flying over North Vietnam, you never flew in a straight line for more than 4 seconds at a time. You were constantly jinking, what we call jinking, so you might be straight for a couple of seconds, looking somewhere, and then it’s time to change altitude, change direction, because this radar is projecting your flight path and it’s going to put a bullet—sometimes these were big bullets; the normal ones were 57-millimeter, which is golly, 57-millimeters is almost a 3-inch shell—and they could put it right where you’re going to be in 8 seconds, so you don’t want to be there 8 seconds from now.

[Assistant] Was that something you had practiced training before you went, or was that something that they had told you when you got there?

[User] Both—you got told it, and we also flew missions in the simulator. Before I finished the RAG, you’d fly missions in the simulator. If you weren’t jinking, they’d shoot you down in the simulator, and they’d say, “Okay, you forgot to jink, didn’t you? So you just got shot down.” Fortunately, just in the simulator.

[Assistant] It was sort of engrained by the time you went over there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it obviously bothered him a lot more than it bothered me. People ask me if I was scared. I don’t know that I’d use the word “scared.” I was very apprehensive. When you’ve got tracers coming by your canopy, it’ll get your attention. Those really light up the sky, but the ones that are a lot more dangerous were the radar-guided antiaircraft guns, where they’d have a radar tracking you, feeding that information to a computer, and the computer aims the guns at you. It knew how to lead you, it knew where you were going, and that’s why when you were flying over North Vietnam, you never flew in a straight line for more than 4 seconds at a time. You were constantly jinking, what we call jinking, so you might be straight for a couple of seconds, looking somewhere, and then it’s time to change altitude, change direction, because this radar is projecting your flight path and it’s going to put a bullet—sometimes these were big bullets; the normal ones were 57-millimeter, which is golly, 57-millimeters is almost a 3-inch shell—and they could put it right where you’re going to be in 8 seconds, so you don’t want to be there 8 seconds from now.

[Assistant] Was that something you had practiced training before you went, or was that something that they had told you when you got there?

[User] Both—you got told it, and we also flew missions in the simulator. Before I finished the RAG, you’d fly missions in the simulator. If you weren’t jinking, they’d shoot you down in the simulator, and they’d say, “Okay, you forgot to jink, didn’t you? So you just got shot down.” Fortunately, just in the simulator.

[Assistant] It was sort of engrained by the time you went over there?

[User] Yes, oh, yes.

[Assistant] What did you do once you came back to the States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was hoping that that’s what it was, and I didn’t know the protocol at the time. It turns out that what the protocol was, was that George Abbey would call all the ones who had been selected. If it was somebody else who called you who was a member of the selection board, it’s because you didn’t get selected. I didn’t know that at that time, but I still have that note. I’ve kept that note. Picked up the phone and called George Abbey. George Abbey told me, “Well, if you’re still interested, we’d like to go ahead and select you.” I said, “Ba daba daba, if I’m still interested!” Of course I was.

[Assistant] Of course. Did you tell your parents as soon as you hung up the phone?

[User] Oh, golly, yes. The instruction was, “Hey, the press release is going to go out later today, so please keep it quiet. Don’t go write and tell your local newspaper or anything like that, but keep it quiet at least until the end of the day today,” and I don’t think I waited until the end of the day. I think I called Mom and Dad and told them but told them to keep it quiet, too. What a great day. Then I went and I flew about a 3-hour test flight in a Tomcat, landed from that, and let’s see, myself and my back-seater who was on that project with me, we drove to, I don’t remember where, [Washington] Dulles [International] Airport [Sterling, Virginia] or Washington National [Airport, Arlington, Virginia], and flew down to Orlando and got to be in Florida by the end of the day. That was just a really fun day.

[Assistant] Pretty memorable, I’m sure.

[User] Yes, that was a great day.

[Assistant] Then, a few weeks later, you were invited down here to Houston for basically a meet and greet, introduce you to the Center. Would you tell us about those three days down here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was a great day.

[Assistant] Then, a few weeks later, you were invited down here to Houston for basically a meet and greet, introduce you to the Center. Would you tell us about those three days down here?

[User] Yes, the phone call was January 16, that’s an easy day to remember, and then somebody from NASA—I don’t remember exactly who—got on the phone, but said, “We’d like to have you all come down here.” It was the end of January, as I remember. I don’t remember the exact dates. We were down for about three days, and of course, they toured us around and the press was everywhere. It was just a real big event because we had not picked astronauts in nine years, and these were the first group of Space Shuttle astronauts, 35 of us, 15 pilots and 20 mission specialists. First time we had selected women, so we had our first six women astronauts, and first time we had picked African Americans. In that group was Fred [Frederick D.] Gregory, Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, and Ron [Ronald E.] McNair, and Ellison [S.] Onizuka. I remember a funny story, he was asked by one of the members of the press, “How does it feel to be one of the first minority astronauts?” He said, “Minority? I didn’t know I was one.” That was Ellison. He and I were officemates for the first four and a half years that we were down here together.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about Ellison? Obviously we’re not able to interview him. Rhea [Seddon] told us about some of the antics you guys were involved in.

[User] Oh, golly, yes, did Rhea tell you about some of that?

[Assistant] A few things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not on that one. She was ’90 class, wasn’t she?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, she was in the ’90 class. Maybe it was after that one; it might have been the ’92 class. I still remember we just didn’t have that many women to choose from that met the criteria of qualified, let alone pilot-qualified. We’ve seen that change dramatically over the years and I fully expect our Astronaut Corps is eventually going to get to the point where it’s 50-50 men and women. I know they’re not there yet, but I think it will be. No reason not to be.

[Assistant] Yes, the recent class, it was 50-50. That was big news.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Tell me a little bit more about some of the other women in the class, Judy [Judith A. Resnik] or Sally [K. Ride], Kathy [Kathryn D. Sullivan], some of your initial thoughts about some of those women.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, she was in the ’90 class. Maybe it was after that one; it might have been the ’92 class. I still remember we just didn’t have that many women to choose from that met the criteria of qualified, let alone pilot-qualified. We’ve seen that change dramatically over the years and I fully expect our Astronaut Corps is eventually going to get to the point where it’s 50-50 men and women. I know they’re not there yet, but I think it will be. No reason not to be.

[Assistant] Yes, the recent class, it was 50-50. That was big news.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Tell me a little bit more about some of the other women in the class, Judy [Judith A. Resnik] or Sally [K. Ride], Kathy [Kathryn D. Sullivan], some of your initial thoughts about some of those women.

[User] Judy was beautiful, just gorgeous, and really smart, really driven, really a hard-charger. Judy frequently was going to speak her mind, and sometimes annoyed some people because if Judy had something to say, you were going to hear it. And let’s face it, she was generally always correct. She was generally always right on, but very forceful, very driven, and very competent. Golly I flew with her a whole bunch of times in the T-38s, and she loved what she was doing. Really loved being an astronaut, loved flying the airplanes, loved going cross-country and doing all of those things.\n\n Sally was very much like Judy. They were very much the same sort of women, both very driven. I had pretty well pegged Sally and Judy as being the first two that were going to fly. Not necessarily in that order—I didn’t know which order it was going to be—but they were the two that really showed up in all of the training and all of the working, and worked on some of the more visible things, which did make them show up a whole lot better and made them a whole lot more visible. Very much the same. I actually dated Sally for a while.

[Assistant] Did you really? I didn’t know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I say that all the time. She just loves it when I do that, but no, I asked her. We married May 30, 1981. She wanted us to wait until after STS-1 had happened, which was April 12 of ‘81, and so then, at that point, we announced that we were going to be married on May 30. There have been a number of husband and wife astronaut couples here in the US. Most of them are not still married. Tammy [Tamara E.] Jernigan and Jeff [Peter J.K.] Wisoff are still married, but Rhea and I are [one of a select few].

[Assistant] I think Steven and Linda, Steve [Steven R.] Nagel and Linda [M.] Godwin are still around.

[User] Yes, Steve and Linda are still married, so that’s good, but a number of the other ones are not still married. I always say it’s because I am so easygoing and easy to get along with that we have stayed together for so long. Of course, she makes a funny comment.

[Assistant] I did want to ask you, your class called themselves The Thirty-Five New Guys. Do you think that the women felt that they were part of the guys, or the men thought the women were just one of the guys and part of the gang, or do you think that there was some separation between the two?

[User] I think I called them guys, too, and I considered them one of the guys. I believe they considered themselves one of the guys. I never heard any of them say, “We don’t want to be called guys; we don’t want to be called The Thirty-Five New Guys.” Never did hear that. I suppose it’s possible, but it would surprise me. Actually, it would surprise me to hear of any of them saying, “Well, I object to being called guys.” Never have heard that.

[Assistant] This was the first time, I’m assuming, that you worked with a lot of professional women, being in the Navy. Is that the case?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The astronauts moved us, yes. It was Ace Moving Company.

[Assistant] That’s what I was thinking; I couldn’t remember.

[User] The Ace Moving Company is what we were known as. When somebody would be moving, the word would go out, “Hey, so-and-so is going to move on Saturday; everybody show up that can help.” You’d have 25 astronauts show up to help move. Usually, it happened in about three or four hours, you’d move a whole entire house. They helped us move.

[Assistant] Very nice. I’m guessing more showed up since Rhea was in the hospital, right?

[User] Yes. She had a difficult time with that one, and after something like 14 hours of labor, they said, “This isn’t going to work; we’re going to have to do a c-section.” They did a c-section and then baby Paul, when he was born, had lung difficulties, serious lung difficulties, and got Life Flight-ed up to Hermann Hospital [Houston, Texas]. Altogether, I don’t remember what day she went into the hospital, but [it] was like a week before she finally got released. He was touch and go for about three days, and we weren’t sure that he was going to stay until about the third day. That was kind of traumatic.

[Assistant] That’s scary. But he’s doing well—I think I met him when we were out interviewing Rhea a few years ago, in Murfreesboro [Tennessee].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Ace Moving Company is what we were known as. When somebody would be moving, the word would go out, “Hey, so-and-so is going to move on Saturday; everybody show up that can help.” You’d have 25 astronauts show up to help move. Usually, it happened in about three or four hours, you’d move a whole entire house. They helped us move.

[Assistant] Very nice. I’m guessing more showed up since Rhea was in the hospital, right?

[User] Yes. She had a difficult time with that one, and after something like 14 hours of labor, they said, “This isn’t going to work; we’re going to have to do a c-section.” They did a c-section and then baby Paul, when he was born, had lung difficulties, serious lung difficulties, and got Life Flight-ed up to Hermann Hospital [Houston, Texas]. Altogether, I don’t remember what day she went into the hospital, but [it] was like a week before she finally got released. He was touch and go for about three days, and we weren’t sure that he was going to stay until about the third day. That was kind of traumatic.

[Assistant] That’s scary. But he’s doing well—I think I met him when we were out interviewing Rhea a few years ago, in Murfreesboro [Tennessee].

[User] Yes, he’s done fine. He’s graduated from college now and working as a waiter in an Italian restaurant, as a college graduate, still looking for that career, but yes, he’s done well.

[Assistant] It’s a tough market these days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. She had a difficult time with that one, and after something like 14 hours of labor, they said, “This isn’t going to work; we’re going to have to do a c-section.” They did a c-section and then baby Paul, when he was born, had lung difficulties, serious lung difficulties, and got Life Flight-ed up to Hermann Hospital [Houston, Texas]. Altogether, I don’t remember what day she went into the hospital, but [it] was like a week before she finally got released. He was touch and go for about three days, and we weren’t sure that he was going to stay until about the third day. That was kind of traumatic.

[Assistant] That’s scary. But he’s doing well—I think I met him when we were out interviewing Rhea a few years ago, in Murfreesboro [Tennessee].

[User] Yes, he’s done fine. He’s graduated from college now and working as a waiter in an Italian restaurant, as a college graduate, still looking for that career, but yes, he’s done well.

[Assistant] It’s a tough market these days.

[User] Yes, it sure is.

[Assistant] Tell us about those first few days when you came down here to Houston, being part of that Astronaut Corps, going to that first Monday meeting, and being introduced to your colleagues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I kind of messed up Dick Covey. It just didn’t even occur to me, but in my first meeting with George, when George said, “Come over and let’s talk about Chase,” I had that all put together and went over and showed it to him. Then George appointed Dick Covey to be Chase-1 for STS-3, and same thing, George called over to Covey and said, “All right, come on over and let’s talk about Chase.” Covey went over there and he didn’t have that. He came back and he said, “Oh, George told me when you came over, you had a whole detailed plan of how many sorties each guy was going to get, and how many rendezvous each guy was going to get, and you didn’t tell me about that.” It just hadn’t occurred to me, but I kind of screwed him because I was so organized and ready for the whole thing and he wasn’t.

[Assistant] You think that’s why he was the last to fly in class? No, I’m just teasing.

[User] I’m trying to think, was he our last pilot to fly?

[Assistant] I think that’s what he told me.

[User] I know Shannon was the last one out of our class to fly, and she went with Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein on his second mission, which was his first mission as commander [STS-51G]. I didn’t remember which pilot, to tell you the truth, was the last one to fly. I guess I was the fourth one to fly, out of 15. It might have been Covey. I don’t know why Covey would have been the last one to fly. I was always very impressed with him, always very impressed with him. He was by the numbers, he was not a cowboy, he was a very professional aviator. I don’t know why he would have been the last one to fly.

[Assistant] He had some good missions. He got to go to the Hubble [Space Telescope].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to think, was he our last pilot to fly?

[Assistant] I think that’s what he told me.

[User] I know Shannon was the last one out of our class to fly, and she went with Dan [Daniel C.] Brandenstein on his second mission, which was his first mission as commander [STS-51G]. I didn’t remember which pilot, to tell you the truth, was the last one to fly. I guess I was the fourth one to fly, out of 15. It might have been Covey. I don’t know why Covey would have been the last one to fly. I was always very impressed with him, always very impressed with him. He was by the numbers, he was not a cowboy, he was a very professional aviator. I don’t know why he would have been the last one to fly.

[Assistant] He had some good missions. He got to go to the Hubble [Space Telescope].

[User] He was Air Force. He was Air Force, and it has to be acknowledged that there was a Navy bias.

[Assistant] You agree with Mike Mullane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was always fun to be down there, and any time you were down at the Cape, they wanted you to wear your flight suit because they wanted the folks that worked down there to get to see who they were keeping alive, and get to see who they were doing all this hard work for, and also give them an opportunity to walk up and say, “Hey, I’m Jim Schultz, who are you?” Just get to meet an astronaut. You were always on display because you were wearing your blue suit everywhere you went, and including in the Orbiter, when we’re doing the testing in the Orbiter, they just wanted us to wear our blue suits for all of that. That was kind of fun. It’s a whole lot more enjoyable when you’re not on display and you can just blend in to the woodwork, but when you were working as a Cape Crusader, like I said, they wanted us in our blue flight suits.

[Assistant] We have just a few more minutes, but I have to ask this question, just because I asked Rhea and she wasn’t sure, so I was going to ask you. I read in an article—I think it was a People Magazine article that came out when you and Rhea, either you had just gotten engaged or you had just gotten married, I can’t remember which.

[User] We had just been married.

[Assistant] There was something in there about how you had been contacted by a bridal magazine and they had left a message for Mr. Seddon. I just thought, “Oh, I would love to hear the story behind it,” and I’d like to hear what your classmates and other people in the Astronaut Office thought about that.

[User] I think that that came from one of our classmates. I think it was Brides Magazine. I don’t remember exactly why, but chances are, Ellison Onizuka was behind it.

[Assistant] Another one of his pranks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. I don’t think there’ll ever be another one like that. I can’t imagine. I hope there’s nothing as painful as 2010. It’s hard for me to imagine you’ll have as high as 2014. Yes, I don’t think that’ll ever be the same. That’d be fine with me. If other things went and they were easy, that’d be cool.

[Assistant] I think we’ve touched on a lot of the themes that we were looking for in the Project. We appreciate you sharing those details with us.

[User] Thanks for asking. The way you asked me made me think of it in a different way. Some of it is still emotional. It’s funny, it’s been so long. But still I can feel it.

[Assistant] I have no doubt that it is. It’s probably still there in your heart and in your mind.

[User] Yes. I got to watch this year not to get too tied up in that. I got to do the same thing here that I did there, for the Center. “Let’s do our job. Let’s figure out how to make sure the messages are accurate. We don’t set policy, but let’s try to influence as much as we can.” We’ll see. We’ll see.

[Assistant] It’s trying times, that’s for sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I really don't recall specifics, but early afternoon.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting at. Did you have a lot of time afterwards?

[User] There was a fair amount of time.

[Assistant] How did you usually spent that?

[User] Not enough. Once I played volleyball with the guys at the school and they were really good volleyball players, we had a great time. And this one fellow teacher who was about my age had an older brother who'd gone to college in America. So he was knowledgeable about what things were like in America because he'd heard all these stories from his older brother. But we would typically go back with where my house was, was on a local bazaar. The little town was called Bakuham, and there would be maybe 12 or 15 shops, five or six or seven on each side of the road. And one would be textiles and one would be fruit and one would be meat and one would be, you know, pens and pencils and what have you. And sometimes I go out there and sit with the locals and chat with them and have a lot of experiences. I know politically there were some interesting things that happened. This was during the time of Watergate. And I picked up like immediately in November of ‘71. One of the things you went out and bought was a shortwave radio. It was about the size of a lunchbox and it had a long antenna that you'd pull out. And BBC World Worldwide was where we got our news. And I still get my one of my primary sources of news from that today, because it's the most, I think, independent and also very efficient.

[Assistant] And it covers more of the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A good number of us did, and we negotiated union contracts and, again, tried to do those in ways that helped the Center get its job done. Yes, I spent a fair amount of time doing that, too. That was interesting. That’s a different aspect of the HR business, and I think because we had people of good will on both sides, that generally worked out pretty well. It was a little rocky going in the early seventies.\n\n Jack Lister gave some excellent leadership to that. Carl Maxey was invaluable at that point. Dick Kuhn was another one who was very skilled in that area, and then for many, many years, [Robert F.] Bob Hall, who worked with me and others to guide that relationship and to try to honor the principle that employees have the right to belong to a union, and unions have a stake in the role of this thing. How do we do that and work together to make this whole thing work out? Bob, in particular, was probably the best that I’ve ever seen at that. He was really good at doing that. But he and I and Dick and some other folks negotiated our fair share of contractual activity.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting.

[User] It was fun. It was fun.

[Assistant] In ’73, the Personnel Office reorganized. What was the reason behind the reorganization?

[User] I think Jack was always looking for the best way to put together the combination of people that he had, coupled with what’s the best way to provide service to the organization. So he was forever kind of reshaping and retooling that around people and around the emerging needs. At that point, we were coming out of the period of the layoffs, and we were going to be heading into a new period, which was a fairly austere period as far as hiring was concerned, but already starting to ramp up to support the emerging Space Shuttle Program. How are we going to put our resources together in the best way to help the organization to get people where they need to be, the right people, to be able to do the next program?

[Assistant] So your title changed at that point. Did your duties change at all, or was it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun. It was fun.

[Assistant] In ’73, the Personnel Office reorganized. What was the reason behind the reorganization?

[User] I think Jack was always looking for the best way to put together the combination of people that he had, coupled with what’s the best way to provide service to the organization. So he was forever kind of reshaping and retooling that around people and around the emerging needs. At that point, we were coming out of the period of the layoffs, and we were going to be heading into a new period, which was a fairly austere period as far as hiring was concerned, but already starting to ramp up to support the emerging Space Shuttle Program. How are we going to put our resources together in the best way to help the organization to get people where they need to be, the right people, to be able to do the next program?

[Assistant] So your title changed at that point. Did your duties change at all, or was it—

[User] No, it was pretty much the same. It was pretty much the same, right.

[Assistant] I believe around that time also you became an Education for Public Management Fellow at Cornell [University, Ithaca, New York]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's assessing the cost of what it is, it's the improvement that's going to be realized, it's the technical risk of actually realizing the improvement, and then if it's a risk reduction activity—how much risk does it really buy you. If right now my risk is 1 in 100 and I can make a design change that costs little and I can get to 1 in 1 million—that kind of assessment is what you want to be able to do. As far as someone that's coming into the program, you have to get to know your leaders at all levels. They need to get to know you. Once they know you, that's how they get to trust you. I think having your leader trust you to do your jobs correctly and provide good advice is key.

[Assistant] Is there a way that you have seen that works when people start to instill trust in others and vice versa?

[User] The people that I worked with—if I trusted them, I think they trusted me more. If they weren't quite as reliable and I didn't feel like I could trust them, then I felt that they didn't trust what I was telling them quite as much. I think trust is key.

[Assistant] Is that something that can be taught to others? I know it can be tested.

[User] I don't know if that can be taught. I think it's more of a goal. You need to start as a goal to gain trust from either somebody working for you or who you're working for. Getting to know the leaders—shaking hands, whatever it is, whether you see them outside of work or whether you get exposure to them through your technical work—so they'll know who you are.

[Assistant] Any other thoughts you'd like to add as a closing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people that I worked with—if I trusted them, I think they trusted me more. If they weren't quite as reliable and I didn't feel like I could trust them, then I felt that they didn't trust what I was telling them quite as much. I think trust is key.

[Assistant] Is that something that can be taught to others? I know it can be tested.

[User] I don't know if that can be taught. I think it's more of a goal. You need to start as a goal to gain trust from either somebody working for you or who you're working for. Getting to know the leaders—shaking hands, whatever it is, whether you see them outside of work or whether you get exposure to them through your technical work—so they'll know who you are.

[Assistant] Any other thoughts you'd like to add as a closing?

[User] You had one question [about] who else you might want to interview. I've jotted down some names. Bert [James B.] Jackson [Jr.] works here. He was the guy that put the configuration management process in place originally for Shuttle. There's some retired people I know that are still around. I think Dick [Richard H.] Kohrs and Owen Morris are still around. I think Dick Kohrs has got an office over in Building 1 somewhere helping Constellation. I thought he was one of the best Program Managers we ever had. Owen Morris was the initial systems integration manager and I think he's still working with Dick. Others come to mind are Lambert [D.] Austin [Jr.], Don [Donald E.] Prevett, Tom [C. Thomas] Modlin [Jr.] and Jene [A.] Richart—one of the guys that used to work for me, he's been there a long time. Probably good folks to interview.

[Assistant] All right, sir. Well, thanks so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1969 through 1972. September 1, ‘69 to August 31, ‘72.

[Assistant] And we are in Lesterville, Missouri. And we will begin with probably the most common question is why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] My Uncle Horatio spoke Spanish. Aunt Rose spoke Hungarian, and they hosted some refugees from Hungary after the 1956 revolution. They hosted some refugees from Cuba after the Cuban revolution. They also had several they hosted some exchange students from Peru. And I became fascinated with Latin America. I took Spanish in high school and was relatively good at it. Then, after three years of college as a physics major, I decided I wanted to be a teacher and they had a program in which they were recruiting teachers. I would get a teaching certificate and I would get a assignment in Honduras or Peru, which was all the things I wanted at that time. So that was that was an offer I couldn't refuse. We were also great admirers of President Kennedy and the Peace Corps always sounded like a good idea to me.

[Assistant] Great, great. Before joining the Peace Corps, we talked a little bit about your aunt and uncle and their activities. Any other childhood or education or other experiences that you think contributed to your joining the Peace Corps?

[User] I was the oldest of eight children. The house was getting kind of crowded. And when I was in college, I was working three different jobs. And this would be a way to kind of break that pattern. And I could get out of town and finish up my education at Brockport State.

[Assistant] Well, that was quite the I assume then that getting the teaching certificate was a big motivating factor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My Uncle Horatio spoke Spanish. Aunt Rose spoke Hungarian, and they hosted some refugees from Hungary after the 1956 revolution. They hosted some refugees from Cuba after the Cuban revolution. They also had several they hosted some exchange students from Peru. And I became fascinated with Latin America. I took Spanish in high school and was relatively good at it. Then, after three years of college as a physics major, I decided I wanted to be a teacher and they had a program in which they were recruiting teachers. I would get a teaching certificate and I would get a assignment in Honduras or Peru, which was all the things I wanted at that time. So that was that was an offer I couldn't refuse. We were also great admirers of President Kennedy and the Peace Corps always sounded like a good idea to me.

[Assistant] Great, great. Before joining the Peace Corps, we talked a little bit about your aunt and uncle and their activities. Any other childhood or education or other experiences that you think contributed to your joining the Peace Corps?

[User] I was the oldest of eight children. The house was getting kind of crowded. And when I was in college, I was working three different jobs. And this would be a way to kind of break that pattern. And I could get out of town and finish up my education at Brockport State.

[Assistant] Well, that was quite the I assume then that getting the teaching certificate was a big motivating factor.

[User] Yes, it was. You also have we so we had to take the 18 hours of education courses. We took Spanish every semester because we were going to be teaching teachers. So we had to do this efficiently.

[Assistant] So was your degree then from Brockport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the oldest of eight children. The house was getting kind of crowded. And when I was in college, I was working three different jobs. And this would be a way to kind of break that pattern. And I could get out of town and finish up my education at Brockport State.

[Assistant] Well, that was quite the I assume then that getting the teaching certificate was a big motivating factor.

[User] Yes, it was. You also have we so we had to take the 18 hours of education courses. We took Spanish every semester because we were going to be teaching teachers. So we had to do this efficiently.

[Assistant] So was your degree then from Brockport?

[User] My degree was from Brockport. It was a Bachelor of Science and Physics.

[Assistant] Ok, all right, great. So how did you hear about this offer about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. You also have we so we had to take the 18 hours of education courses. We took Spanish every semester because we were going to be teaching teachers. So we had to do this efficiently.

[Assistant] So was your degree then from Brockport?

[User] My degree was from Brockport. It was a Bachelor of Science and Physics.

[Assistant] Ok, all right, great. So how did you hear about this offer about the Peace Corps?

[User] I think I saw it in a brochure or an advertisement.

[Assistant] And where were you studying before that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My degree was from Brockport. It was a Bachelor of Science and Physics.

[Assistant] Ok, all right, great. So how did you hear about this offer about the Peace Corps?

[User] I think I saw it in a brochure or an advertisement.

[Assistant] And where were you studying before that?

[User] I was at Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa. It's a small Catholic men's college.

[Assistant] What was the name of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa. It's a small Catholic men's college.

[Assistant] What was the name of it?

[User] Loras.

[Assistant] L-O?

[User] L-O-R-A-S. Word in Spanish, parrots. Named after a bishop who was one of the early bishops in town.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And so you're your training was actually part of an undergraduate degree program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Loras.

[Assistant] L-O?

[User] L-O-R-A-S. Word in Spanish, parrots. Named after a bishop who was one of the early bishops in town.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And so you're your training was actually part of an undergraduate degree program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you have any training specifically related to Honduras or was mostly the language around you had intensive Spanish, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] L-O-R-A-S. Word in Spanish, parrots. Named after a bishop who was one of the early bishops in town.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And so you're your training was actually part of an undergraduate degree program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you have any training specifically related to Honduras or was mostly the language around you had intensive Spanish, right?

[User] Also, the spring break before our final summer, they arranged a trip for us to Honduras to spend a week there. My mom didn't want to invest in another member of everybody and then have people drop out right away. So they took us, right. They took us to Honduras. I got off the plane in Tegucigalpa, got in another plane right away to San Pedro Sula, got on another plane to Santa Barbara. So I went from a four engine to a big two engine prop to a DC three, like my dad flew with the Second World War. He was a navigator radio operator. So it's really an interesting progression of aircraft. Yes. So I spent several days in Santa Barbara with Craig Wanky, who was a Peace Corps volunteer, and he wickiup and got to visit a couple of other places, sort of a couple older volunteers. And I realized this is going to really change me.

[Assistant] You realized then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you have any training specifically related to Honduras or was mostly the language around you had intensive Spanish, right?

[User] Also, the spring break before our final summer, they arranged a trip for us to Honduras to spend a week there. My mom didn't want to invest in another member of everybody and then have people drop out right away. So they took us, right. They took us to Honduras. I got off the plane in Tegucigalpa, got in another plane right away to San Pedro Sula, got on another plane to Santa Barbara. So I went from a four engine to a big two engine prop to a DC three, like my dad flew with the Second World War. He was a navigator radio operator. So it's really an interesting progression of aircraft. Yes. So I spent several days in Santa Barbara with Craig Wanky, who was a Peace Corps volunteer, and he wickiup and got to visit a couple of other places, sort of a couple older volunteers. And I realized this is going to really change me.

[Assistant] You realized then?

[User] Yeah, yeah. But I still like it.

[Assistant] Ok. All right. So you really had more prep than those of us who didn't get there until we were ready. So this question is a little inappropriate about like your reaction when you were accepted. But basically when you decided to change and study Brockport, was there much of a reaction among your family and the people that were close to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. But I still like it.

[Assistant] Ok. All right. So you really had more prep than those of us who didn't get there until we were ready. So this question is a little inappropriate about like your reaction when you were accepted. But basically when you decided to change and study Brockport, was there much of a reaction among your family and the people that were close to you?

[User] Not really. That my parents were supportive.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I like to say we are the family admired John Kennedy. We thought that he thought maybe.

[Assistant] Yup, yup. And so did you have a preference aside from Latin America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. That my parents were supportive.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I like to say we are the family admired John Kennedy. We thought that he thought maybe.

[Assistant] Yup, yup. And so did you have a preference aside from Latin America?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK. So is there any particular with a particular people trained for this Peace Corps assignment, this Peace Corps program at Bridgeport Fort Brockport that focused on you becoming teachers in Latin America? Well, I was there. So aside from the general teaching, learning how to teach with a teach you how to teach in Latin America much cultural information and things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I like to say we are the family admired John Kennedy. We thought that he thought maybe.

[Assistant] Yup, yup. And so did you have a preference aside from Latin America?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK. So is there any particular with a particular people trained for this Peace Corps assignment, this Peace Corps program at Bridgeport Fort Brockport that focused on you becoming teachers in Latin America? Well, I was there. So aside from the general teaching, learning how to teach with a teach you how to teach in Latin America much cultural information and things like that?

[User] We have had several of our language teachers were from Latin America. OK, so there were there were times when we would have discussions on the culture. But we were trained as a group, mostly, mostly specialty classes. It was all the Peace Corps for the education, psychology, the developmental psychology, the teaching methods. The only people in the room or the instructor and teach for trainees.

[Assistant] And how many people were in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] OK. So is there any particular with a particular people trained for this Peace Corps assignment, this Peace Corps program at Bridgeport Fort Brockport that focused on you becoming teachers in Latin America? Well, I was there. So aside from the general teaching, learning how to teach with a teach you how to teach in Latin America much cultural information and things like that?

[User] We have had several of our language teachers were from Latin America. OK, so there were there were times when we would have discussions on the culture. But we were trained as a group, mostly, mostly specialty classes. It was all the Peace Corps for the education, psychology, the developmental psychology, the teaching methods. The only people in the room or the instructor and teach for trainees.

[Assistant] And how many people were in your group?

[User] Started out with 50 and 25 went overseas.

[Assistant] And so there was a slow attrition over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have had several of our language teachers were from Latin America. OK, so there were there were times when we would have discussions on the culture. But we were trained as a group, mostly, mostly specialty classes. It was all the Peace Corps for the education, psychology, the developmental psychology, the teaching methods. The only people in the room or the instructor and teach for trainees.

[Assistant] And how many people were in your group?

[User] Started out with 50 and 25 went overseas.

[Assistant] And so there was a slow attrition over?

[User] Several people got offers for graduate school and decided they'd rather do that. People dropped out little by little.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, what do you think the training adequately prepared you for what you were going to be doing?