[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, my father passed away a couple of years ago, but my stepmother is going strong. And yeah, they, in fact, my dad used to go all the time to the recruiting events and talk about being a senior in Peace Corps. I mean, they made some amazing lifelong friendships. I mean, she gets phone calls all the time from their friends in Romania, and they email all the time. And she hasn't been back recently, but she went back, probably, you know, three or four times to visit in Romania. And I think that's actually pretty cool that five of their seven grandkids got to visit them in Peace Corps. You know, how cool is that to go visit grandma and grandpa in Peace Corps, you know? The only two that didn't get there was just they were just too young to make a trip like that.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. That's great.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, a good tradition.

[User] It is. It is a good tradition.

[Assistant] So thank you for the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like most things in Orion, we don’t have a lot of folks to do that. We really had one lead for it. Then of course lots of folks provided fractions of their time to provide the data that went into that study. Really just one person leading it. Again this is the production part of it. There were other efforts in the other CAMs, but just one lead and a lot of slices of technicians’ time and engineers’ time to go feed that process.

[Assistant] Did everyone sit down and do an interview or were they just asked maybe to type up a memo and share their lessons learned?

[User] No. I think not everybody in the program went and did it, but what we did is we tried to make sure we interviewed all the key folks who had a role in the build. There was a very specific effort to go down, talk to the technicians on the floor, and solicit those inputs. Then almost everybody who had a comment or had some thoughts for lessons learned was interviewed in it. Again I can’t remember the exact number of folks but there were many. They ranged from technicians working on something like the heat shield installation or those fasteners, all the way to manufacturing engineers who were trying to put the processes together, to the design engineers who were designing the heat shield for instance.

[Assistant] How many total people work in production?

[User] On the NASA side of it, on the nonprime side, we have between 24 and 30, depending on the time phasing. On the contractor side between Lockheed and ASRC [(Arctic Slope Regional Corporation) Federal], who’s Lockheed’s support for technician labor, there’s about 250 or so.

[Assistant] That’s not a very big labor force, when you think about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came out here for my interview at JSC. I think tops maybe it was two hours, and that probably included lunch. I met only the Library staff, that’s the only people that I met. I also met Bill [William A.] Larsen. I interviewed with Bill Larsen.

[Assistant] How was that?

[User] We weren’t under IRD [Information Resources Directorate] at the time. We were under Center Ops [Operations].

[Assistant] That’s another question.

[User] Yes. We were under Center Ops. Bill Larsen, I don’t know what his position was at the time, I can’t remember. He wasn’t directly over the libraries. Donna [K.] McAllister was directly over the libraries, and I think Donna reported to Bill. At that time NASA was much more free with their thoughts about who should be hired, who should be fired, which of course does not happen anymore. Frankly, it didn’t happen much longer after I came on board. At the time, NASA was involved in the hiring process even though they should not have been. Yes. Interesting.

[Assistant] That is. What year was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It still exists. DIALOG still exists. It’s not the powerhouse it was at one time, because again they’ve gotten away from the command stuff. They want to give the end user the opportunity to do their own searching. Even DIALOG has gotten away from command searching. My heart still hurts that I can’t use commands in what RECON is now called, NTRS. That’s the current version of it, NASA Technical Reports Server. It is not command-driven at all. There’s no way for you to do it with commands.

[Assistant] It sounds like it was DOS [disk operating systems]-based because of the command structure. Like you said, NTRS is GUI [graphical user] interface. That’s what it looks like, it’s the difference.

[User] Probably, yes.

[Assistant] Because the commands, that’s typical with DOS.

[User] Yes, a lot of the databases now, you still can do command searching, but it’s hidden.

[Assistant] I had no idea. I’ve never heard of such a thing as command.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably, yes.

[Assistant] Because the commands, that’s typical with DOS.

[User] Yes, a lot of the databases now, you still can do command searching, but it’s hidden.

[Assistant] I had no idea. I’ve never heard of such a thing as command.

[User] Yes. It’s different in each one. Knowing what the different commands are for each one is a challenge. Because we’ve made it easier and easier for the end user, over time now we don’t get people coming to the Library asking us to do research anymore. It’s very rare, but when I started that was all we did. It was continuous, all the time. It was like that up until probably the end of the ’90s.\n\n It’s sort of a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Our budget has been cut over time. It’s like, “All right, are we getting less requests for research?” [But it’s] not just budget cuts. When they moved us, when we did that whole UH-Clear Lake partnership, a lot of people thought the Library closed and there wasn’t a Library anymore. So it’s kind of like, “All right, are we not seeing people because they’re doing their own research?” That’s definitely part of it for sure. “Are we not seeing people because they don’t realize that the Library is still here? Are they unaware that there’s a librarian who can do research for them?” So it’s definitely changed a lot over time.

[Assistant] Are you benchmarking against the other Field Centers to see if there are similarities? [NASA] Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], they have that beautiful new Library that they put all that money into.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a lot of the databases now, you still can do command searching, but it’s hidden.

[Assistant] I had no idea. I’ve never heard of such a thing as command.

[User] Yes. It’s different in each one. Knowing what the different commands are for each one is a challenge. Because we’ve made it easier and easier for the end user, over time now we don’t get people coming to the Library asking us to do research anymore. It’s very rare, but when I started that was all we did. It was continuous, all the time. It was like that up until probably the end of the ’90s.\n\n It’s sort of a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Our budget has been cut over time. It’s like, “All right, are we getting less requests for research?” [But it’s] not just budget cuts. When they moved us, when we did that whole UH-Clear Lake partnership, a lot of people thought the Library closed and there wasn’t a Library anymore. So it’s kind of like, “All right, are we not seeing people because they’re doing their own research?” That’s definitely part of it for sure. “Are we not seeing people because they don’t realize that the Library is still here? Are they unaware that there’s a librarian who can do research for them?” So it’s definitely changed a lot over time.

[Assistant] Are you benchmarking against the other Field Centers to see if there are similarities? [NASA] Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], they have that beautiful new Library that they put all that money into.

[User] Oh, it’s [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland].

[Assistant] Is it Goddard?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It’s different in each one. Knowing what the different commands are for each one is a challenge. Because we’ve made it easier and easier for the end user, over time now we don’t get people coming to the Library asking us to do research anymore. It’s very rare, but when I started that was all we did. It was continuous, all the time. It was like that up until probably the end of the ’90s.\n\n It’s sort of a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Our budget has been cut over time. It’s like, “All right, are we getting less requests for research?” [But it’s] not just budget cuts. When they moved us, when we did that whole UH-Clear Lake partnership, a lot of people thought the Library closed and there wasn’t a Library anymore. So it’s kind of like, “All right, are we not seeing people because they’re doing their own research?” That’s definitely part of it for sure. “Are we not seeing people because they don’t realize that the Library is still here? Are they unaware that there’s a librarian who can do research for them?” So it’s definitely changed a lot over time.

[Assistant] Are you benchmarking against the other Field Centers to see if there are similarities? [NASA] Glenn [Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], they have that beautiful new Library that they put all that money into.

[User] Oh, it’s [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland].

[Assistant] Is it Goddard?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I thought Glenn also had a new Library.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it’s [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland].

[Assistant] Is it Goddard?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I thought Glenn also had a new Library.

[User] I think Glenn does too, but Goddard’s is getting a lot of kudos. That’s really interesting, because frankly they were going to kind of like they did with us, get rid of the physical collection and be virtual. Goddard is a Research Center with a capital R. A lot of their scientists were extremely unhappy, but it was moving forward. They had weeded huge portions of their book collection. They had a huge book collection. Then they did an assessment of the building.\n\n Part of the reason they wanted to do this [was] because—like they did with us—they wanted to take the Library space. They discovered part of the reason that building was built was for the Library. There were other things in Goddard’s Library, but part of the reason that building was built was for the Library. The shelving in the Library was actually support for the building. You could not take the shelving out.

[Assistant] It’s like the Library is fighting back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That is what the STI Center is. I frequently will answer the phone and say, “Library.” I don’t answer the phone and say, “STI Center,” but my signature on my e-mail says STI Center supervisor. I don’t use it a lot. I do not use that phrase a lot. It’s very confusing for people. They understand what a library is. They understand what a history office is. I’m guessing they sort of understand what a repository is, although I’m sure sometimes people are like, “What’s the difference between a library and a repository?” Frankly I’m not sure I totally understand. I sort of do.\n\n I don’t know the exact history. I do think it started shortly before I started working there. I don’t think it’s something that’s ever really taken hold.

[Assistant] It’s just interesting to me to have that title, and I don’t know if it’s because NASA is so technologically focused that that’s something that they thought, “Ooh, instead of library what we really need [is],” and they love acronyms.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Maybe people think they can go read novels or something in there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You also mentioned something that I was thinking about earlier. JSC is an Ops Center. You mentioned all the Research Centers that banded together and then allowed you to come in a little bit later. Are there differences in terms of the libraries as a result?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Maybe people think they can go read novels or something in there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You also mentioned something that I was thinking about earlier. JSC is an Ops Center. You mentioned all the Research Centers that banded together and then allowed you to come in a little bit later. Are there differences in terms of the libraries as a result?

[User] My feeling is, generally speaking, the research libraries are better funded than the libraries at the Operational Centers. Now I say that with an asterisk. Some are better funded than others. But generally speaking the Research Centers, their libraries tend to get more funding than the Operational Centers, which I find aggravating to a certain degree. There’s a lot of research that goes on here. No, we are not considered a Research Center with capital R. But when you look at Space and Life [Sciences]—well, they were Space and Life Sciences when I was over there forever. I forget what they’re called now, but anyway SA [current mail code for Human Health and Performance Directorate]. There is a ton of research going on at SA, and it’s real peer-reviewed grant-moneyed research. They are the ones who are responsible for the health of the astronaut corps. They’re almost like academia, publish or perish kind of thing, bringing in grant money, writing articles.\n\n We have an Engineering Directorate, and they’re doing research too. They have to figure out how to get these people into space. We may not have research in the name of our institution, but we certainly do research. I think [NASA] Kennedy [Space Center, Florida, KSC] fares even worse than JSC does in terms of funding and being seen as an Operational Center and not a Research Center.

[Assistant] Before we turned on the recorder you said that you were a supervisor at the Medical Library in ’98. So you worked your way up pretty quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s a lot of great things about working here, and those things are more important to me than other things. There’s a lot of flexibility in the schedule, which I really appreciate. My husband, he works out here. It’s an easy commute. He spends a lot of time going to KSC. I can go with him sometimes, because I can telecommute. It’s not something I can do all the time but it’s certainly something I can do sometimes. They allow for it.\n\n It’s NASA, and, well, people think it’s cool. Sometimes you remember it’s cool. It has its moments.

[Assistant]
It does.

It does. I usually think about that when I have visitors or when the tram comes by and everybody’s waving at me, and they’re so excited. This is really cool to be here.

Think about the people you’ve actually met. It’s amazing.

Yes, there’s a lot. It is.

[User] I was teaching my son to drive, and I thought well, bring him out here on a weekend.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s a great idea.

[User] It was perfect, because you’ve got regular streets. You’ve got stop signs. You’ve got streetlights, but there’s nobody here. It’s a very safe environment. I brought him out here a couple times when he was learning how to drive. The trams of course are still going. He’s like, “What’s it like to work someplace where people visit?” It’s cool sometimes.

[Assistant]
It is cool when you think about it. I’ve had so many people tell me that they want my job. I’m like, “Well, I’m not giving it up.”

There’s one. No.

Exactly, better come up with a new job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was teaching my son to drive, and I thought well, bring him out here on a weekend.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s a great idea.

[User] It was perfect, because you’ve got regular streets. You’ve got stop signs. You’ve got streetlights, but there’s nobody here. It’s a very safe environment. I brought him out here a couple times when he was learning how to drive. The trams of course are still going. He’s like, “What’s it like to work someplace where people visit?” It’s cool sometimes.

[Assistant]
It is cool when you think about it. I’ve had so many people tell me that they want my job. I’m like, “Well, I’m not giving it up.”

There’s one. No.

Exactly, better come up with a new job.

[User] New career plan.

[Assistant]
Exactly, I’ll let you know when I’m done.

When I’m through you can have it.

We’ve hardly hit on any of the topics, but I did want to ask you one question. Then I guess we’ll meet with John [Uri]. That’s becoming a medical librarian, because that is such a very specific career. Were you reading medical journals, or did you just pick it up the way you picked up NASA things around here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We call them silos. Everybody’s got their own silo.

[Assistant] If everything could be connected, it would just make so much more sense.

[User] For decades every once in a while we will hear from down on high that they want a database that would give them everything that NASA has.

[Assistant] The easy button.

[User] Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant] Good luck with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For decades every once in a while we will hear from down on high that they want a database that would give them everything that NASA has.

[Assistant] The easy button.

[User] Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant] Good luck with that.

[User] Yes, we’ve been through this process many many times where we’ve tried to do this. Everybody has their silos, and it’s really hard to break it down. Some of these systems we have control over, other systems we don’t have control over. Then you get inundated. It’s like, “Okay, well, you got everything now. Now what are you going to do? Because it’s way too much.” Corporate knowledge, the longer you’re here, the more aware you are of people’s different silos. You can’t get away from the importance of corporate knowledge because so long as those silos exist, you need to have people who know where they are, who knows who’s responsible for them, who can help you access them.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s very true. We should probably end because I hear John scratching around there. Thank you. I will send you a note and we’ll have more time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was discharged from the Air Force in 1969, and from ‘69 to ‘74, I attended college and also worked a number of part-time jobs. But I was looking for something more permanent. I had gotten married, we had a child, and I was looking for something where I could make a career. And I was familiar with the National Personnel Records Center. I’ve seen the building hundreds of times driving by, and I knew in general what kind of work they did there. So that led me to apply for a job. And as I said, I got the job and I started at the Civilian Personnel Records Center.

[Assistant] Okay. So you were already in the area in St. Louis—I know you weren’t working for the National Archives, but were you around when the fire happened?

[User] I was certainly aware of the fire. It was the biggest news going. So, I was certainly aware of the fire. And I don't know, maybe it even attracted my attention more as far as applying for a job there. But yes, I lived in the area, and I was certainly aware of the fire. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. So you came to the Military Personnel Records Center about a year after the fire?

[User] Well, about eight months. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Eight months after the fire. Can you talk about what it was like in the building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was certainly aware of the fire. It was the biggest news going. So, I was certainly aware of the fire. And I don't know, maybe it even attracted my attention more as far as applying for a job there. But yes, I lived in the area, and I was certainly aware of the fire. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. So you came to the Military Personnel Records Center about a year after the fire?

[User] Well, about eight months. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Eight months after the fire. Can you talk about what it was like in the building?

[User] Well, as I said, I started at the Civilian Personnel Records Center and we were more or less drying out records for the military center at that point. So you always had the odor of the records, the burnt records, and also some of the chemicals they put on the records. So that was ever-present. And then the other thing that was, I guess, something that I knew right away from working at the Civilian Personnel Records Center was we were anxiously looking through all of our holdings to see what might be available and useful to people who had lost their records. When I transferred out to the Military Personnel Records Center, it was still a building that was in, well, construction. I mean, there was still a lot of very visible damage, and there was the smell of the records, and the smell of the building. A lot of people who had done a lot of work right after the fire itself had many stories to tell about what they had to go through to move records and get records down to safety, more or less, after the fire. So, yeah, it was just something that was ever-present. I had a friend that did key punching of records, and she had to hold the records while she did that and said she would just go home and say, “I just want to get cleaned up, take a shower, get my clothes off. Just because it’s everywhere, all over me.”

[Assistant] Wow. So before you moved to the military building, were you involved with the fire or recovery documents when you were at the Civilian Personnel Records Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s my partner in crime there. We’ve been together for a lot of years, and I still talk to him a lot during the week. And so anyway, so it was the same way with several other people that I work with, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. It sounds like you had good rapport with a lot of staff there.

[User] Yeah, and that makes for a happy day when you go to work. Yes.

[Assistant] Right. Well, because you are working in a unique building and circumstances as compared to the rest of the National Archives, did the Archives or GSA, I guess, at that time, provide any special training for staff?

[User] I don’t recall that. I do recall that GSA—we were then a part of GSA until about ‘85. Anyway, I do recall the GSA was just as dedicated, you might say, to get it done and to get things moved and to get things fixed. And so I think that as far as the National Archives, again, I don’t recall anything in specific because these records were still not part of the National Archives. They were still owned by the military services. So we had liaison officers for all the military services. So if we had questions or problems or stuff like that, many times we would go to the liaison office just because, as I said, those records didn’t belong to us.

[Assistant] Right. I’m glad you brought that up. So the records belonged to DoD, and we were basically taking care of them in the records center there. When did discussions begin about making these permanent records, and were you involved with that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and that makes for a happy day when you go to work. Yes.

[Assistant] Right. Well, because you are working in a unique building and circumstances as compared to the rest of the National Archives, did the Archives or GSA, I guess, at that time, provide any special training for staff?

[User] I don’t recall that. I do recall that GSA—we were then a part of GSA until about ‘85. Anyway, I do recall the GSA was just as dedicated, you might say, to get it done and to get things moved and to get things fixed. And so I think that as far as the National Archives, again, I don’t recall anything in specific because these records were still not part of the National Archives. They were still owned by the military services. So we had liaison officers for all the military services. So if we had questions or problems or stuff like that, many times we would go to the liaison office just because, as I said, those records didn’t belong to us.

[Assistant] Right. I’m glad you brought that up. So the records belonged to DoD, and we were basically taking care of them in the records center there. When did discussions begin about making these permanent records, and were you involved with that at all?

[User] You know, those discussions started well before I retired. So I’d say in the 1990s, that I recall, where we would have staff meetings with people that came from our central office and were talking about that. And I remember even being asked a question, “what do you think? How many years after somebody is discharged?” That type of thing. So I think that was a given because obviously the earlier military records were already in the National Archives and were accessible because they were in the National Archives. I think it was a natural thing to assume. And I remember conversations came up about it a few times. But anyway, at least in the 1990s, I remember those conversations and you knew it was going to go that way.

[Assistant] Right. Did you notice any changes on how the NPRC was managed after the National Archives got independence from GSA in 1985?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think there’s a couple thousand.

[Assistant] And those were not just National Archives or GSA, but other agencies as well, or just GSA and the National Archives.

[User] Yeah, it probably was the other people included, too, I think. Liaison officers and some of the people from the Army Reserve Personnel Center. But I think I think, yeah, it was at least a couple thousand people working there.

[Assistant] And what was the culture like working there?

[User] Well, there was, you know, it was a military culture, I think, because in the 1970s, many individuals who worked there had been in the military, and then you were co-located there with the Army Reserve. So I think it was that kind of situation. I know we went to military retirement ceremonies and when we had some kind of event, maybe our people would have a fashion show for something, and the military officers would come in their dress uniforms. So to me, it seemed that way. It seemed more military. And of course, it was the Military Personnel Records Center, but it seemed more military than civilian. And officers and enlisted men were in uniform. And you dealt with those people most days and you saw them in the parking lot and you saw them in the cafeteria. So, yeah, I think that’s what I would say.

[Assistant] Okay. Can you talk a little bit about the aspects of your work that you enjoyed the most?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was. And basically it related to people who were either given, in other words, they ran a business or else somebody had given them permission to review their record. And there were people who wanted to come in themselves and review their record. So it wasn’t like immediate service. In other words, it might take some time to locate a record. So many of them would phone in and go, “how do I do this or that type of thing?” And then we’d have a research room where they could come when the record was actually available for them.

[Assistant] What do you think is the most important impact that this fire had on the National Archives?

[User] I think one of the most important impacts is first you had to have sprinklers in the record center. That’d be a biggie. But secondly, I think, the records that were destroyed—and there’s been other destruction of records throughout the history of the United States and also other places in the world—but I think the lesson learned was you don’t just throw up your hands and walk away and say, well, that’s all gone. In this case, we had many, many, many options and everybody immediately thought of the options and located those options, and it was a success. So I think the lesson would be when you have a disaster then what next? Well, what next is what really counts because you have to go find out what happened. How do we prevent it? How do we take care of the people who were affected? So I think the National Archives and GSA and other federal agencies did a good job with that.

[Assistant] Great. So looking back at the totality of your career, though, how do you view your time at the National Archives?

[User] I had an enjoyable 30 years in the federal government, and I think I did more good than harm.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think one of the most important impacts is first you had to have sprinklers in the record center. That’d be a biggie. But secondly, I think, the records that were destroyed—and there’s been other destruction of records throughout the history of the United States and also other places in the world—but I think the lesson learned was you don’t just throw up your hands and walk away and say, well, that’s all gone. In this case, we had many, many, many options and everybody immediately thought of the options and located those options, and it was a success. So I think the lesson would be when you have a disaster then what next? Well, what next is what really counts because you have to go find out what happened. How do we prevent it? How do we take care of the people who were affected? So I think the National Archives and GSA and other federal agencies did a good job with that.

[Assistant] Great. So looking back at the totality of your career, though, how do you view your time at the National Archives?

[User] I had an enjoyable 30 years in the federal government, and I think I did more good than harm.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day at the Archives?

[User] Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

[Assistant] How did you feel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had an enjoyable 30 years in the federal government, and I think I did more good than harm.

[Assistant] Do you remember your last day at the Archives?

[User] Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

[Assistant] How did you feel?

[User] Oh, it was just, you know, a real change in life because, as I said, I had lots of friends there and we were always close. And one of my closest friends, John Carver and I, we were both retiring on the same day. And we had a big blowout party. But anyway, I remember I cleaned out my desk and they had a bag and a few things that people had given me, little souvenirs and stuff. And every time I left work, I always told one of the secretaries there by the door where I left, I always said, “I’m off.” And every time she just laughed and went, “yeah,” or something like that. So this time I said that and I think she may have started crying. So, she wasn’t laughing that time.

[Assistant] Have you been to the new building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

[Assistant] How did you feel?

[User] Oh, it was just, you know, a real change in life because, as I said, I had lots of friends there and we were always close. And one of my closest friends, John Carver and I, we were both retiring on the same day. And we had a big blowout party. But anyway, I remember I cleaned out my desk and they had a bag and a few things that people had given me, little souvenirs and stuff. And every time I left work, I always told one of the secretaries there by the door where I left, I always said, “I’m off.” And every time she just laughed and went, “yeah,” or something like that. So this time I said that and I think she may have started crying. So, she wasn’t laughing that time.

[Assistant] Have you been to the new building?

[User] Oh, yes, I’ve been there for retirement parties, things like that. And I’ve also been over to the cave where they moved civilian records over in Illinois. So yeah, I’ve been to both locations. Scott Levins at the military building and Kim Gentile at the cave location were always kind enough to invite me and other retired people to go to ceremonies and things like that, you know, the official opening of the building, and as I said, retirements. So yes, I’ve certainly been to both new locations.

[Assistant] What do you think about the caves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, I’ve been there for retirement parties, things like that. And I’ve also been over to the cave where they moved civilian records over in Illinois. So yeah, I’ve been to both locations. Scott Levins at the military building and Kim Gentile at the cave location were always kind enough to invite me and other retired people to go to ceremonies and things like that, you know, the official opening of the building, and as I said, retirements. So yes, I’ve certainly been to both new locations.

[Assistant] What do you think about the caves?

[User] You know, it’s a fascinating place, really. Tell you the truth, I know it’s a proven technology if you want to use the word technology. But I just think it’s amazing. And every time I go over there, I’m amazed.

[Assistant] Very impressive.

[User] Both buildings are, both locations now are impressive as far as where the old places used to be. The Civilian Personnel Records Center is now sort of like a warehouse transfer point for trucks. And it’s still there. And for the Military Personnel Records Center, I don’t if that building is even occupied by many people. There was talk about taking it down and things like that. But I don’t know what the plan is.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that there was a reporter trying to ask some questions, and I know GSA still owns it, so they wanted to take the elevator that goes to nowhere, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it’s a fascinating place, really. Tell you the truth, I know it’s a proven technology if you want to use the word technology. But I just think it’s amazing. And every time I go over there, I’m amazed.

[Assistant] Very impressive.

[User] Both buildings are, both locations now are impressive as far as where the old places used to be. The Civilian Personnel Records Center is now sort of like a warehouse transfer point for trucks. And it’s still there. And for the Military Personnel Records Center, I don’t if that building is even occupied by many people. There was talk about taking it down and things like that. But I don’t know what the plan is.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that there was a reporter trying to ask some questions, and I know GSA still owns it, so they wanted to take the elevator that goes to nowhere, I guess.

[User] I don’t think it goes that far anymore. But yes, that’s interesting. Yeah, I think there were some problems with asbestos in that building. So I don’t know what’s going to end up there eventually. Taking that huge building down will be problematic. I’ll put it that way.

[Assistant] Is there anything about the fire that we didn’t cover that you wanted to share? Or the aftermath?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both buildings are, both locations now are impressive as far as where the old places used to be. The Civilian Personnel Records Center is now sort of like a warehouse transfer point for trucks. And it’s still there. And for the Military Personnel Records Center, I don’t if that building is even occupied by many people. There was talk about taking it down and things like that. But I don’t know what the plan is.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that there was a reporter trying to ask some questions, and I know GSA still owns it, so they wanted to take the elevator that goes to nowhere, I guess.

[User] I don’t think it goes that far anymore. But yes, that’s interesting. Yeah, I think there were some problems with asbestos in that building. So I don’t know what’s going to end up there eventually. Taking that huge building down will be problematic. I’ll put it that way.

[Assistant] Is there anything about the fire that we didn’t cover that you wanted to share? Or the aftermath?

[User] No, not really. As I said, I came on board about eight months after the fire. So people who worked there before, during, and after, especially right there at 9700 Page might obviously have different memories, different feelings about things. You know, when I finally got out there after the fire, things were just different. And I talked to people, guys who were there during and after. And yeah, my experiences weren’t exactly the same.

[Assistant] Right. We’re trying to interview a wide range of people who worked there after the fire in various positions. So, we’re talking to some of your former colleagues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think it goes that far anymore. But yes, that’s interesting. Yeah, I think there were some problems with asbestos in that building. So I don’t know what’s going to end up there eventually. Taking that huge building down will be problematic. I’ll put it that way.

[Assistant] Is there anything about the fire that we didn’t cover that you wanted to share? Or the aftermath?

[User] No, not really. As I said, I came on board about eight months after the fire. So people who worked there before, during, and after, especially right there at 9700 Page might obviously have different memories, different feelings about things. You know, when I finally got out there after the fire, things were just different. And I talked to people, guys who were there during and after. And yeah, my experiences weren’t exactly the same.

[Assistant] Right. We’re trying to interview a wide range of people who worked there after the fire in various positions. So, we’re talking to some of your former colleagues.

[User] Yeah, hopefully that list I gave you would give you some people to talk to.

[Assistant] It’s very helpful. We’ve reached out to many of them and almost everyone is going to participate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. As I said, I came on board about eight months after the fire. So people who worked there before, during, and after, especially right there at 9700 Page might obviously have different memories, different feelings about things. You know, when I finally got out there after the fire, things were just different. And I talked to people, guys who were there during and after. And yeah, my experiences weren’t exactly the same.

[Assistant] Right. We’re trying to interview a wide range of people who worked there after the fire in various positions. So, we’re talking to some of your former colleagues.

[User] Yeah, hopefully that list I gave you would give you some people to talk to.

[Assistant] It’s very helpful. We’ve reached out to many of them and almost everyone is going to participate.

[User] That’s good. And as I said, they'll have different experiences than I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it was an important event, a big event. And lots of people at the National Archives have played quite a major role in helping these veterans. So it’s an important story to tell. And we have been telling it, but now it’s the 50th anniversary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, hopefully that list I gave you would give you some people to talk to.

[Assistant] It’s very helpful. We’ve reached out to many of them and almost everyone is going to participate.

[User] That’s good. And as I said, they'll have different experiences than I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it was an important event, a big event. And lots of people at the National Archives have played quite a major role in helping these veterans. So it’s an important story to tell. And we have been telling it, but now it’s the 50th anniversary.

[User] My worry was there was so much done about the fire itself and it was my feeling that, yes, that was obviously a disaster and a significant disaster in the history of the United States. But I think it’s also very significant what happened afterwards and how things went so that we could verify military service. Now, I know that World War II veterans are few and far between anymore and the same way is going with Korea. So I don’t know how many requests they receive for those types of records anymore, but that’s a dwindling number, I’m sure. But still, it’s still there. The history is still there. Those people’s stories are still there. I think that’s all important.

[Assistant] Right. I really appreciate our staff’s commitment to the veterans. You’re right. We could have just washed our hands of it. But we’ve made this commitment to make sure the veterans are getting their records, and we’re still being impacted by the fire today, which is amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s good. And as I said, they'll have different experiences than I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it was an important event, a big event. And lots of people at the National Archives have played quite a major role in helping these veterans. So it’s an important story to tell. And we have been telling it, but now it’s the 50th anniversary.

[User] My worry was there was so much done about the fire itself and it was my feeling that, yes, that was obviously a disaster and a significant disaster in the history of the United States. But I think it’s also very significant what happened afterwards and how things went so that we could verify military service. Now, I know that World War II veterans are few and far between anymore and the same way is going with Korea. So I don’t know how many requests they receive for those types of records anymore, but that’s a dwindling number, I’m sure. But still, it’s still there. The history is still there. Those people’s stories are still there. I think that’s all important.

[Assistant] Right. I really appreciate our staff’s commitment to the veterans. You’re right. We could have just washed our hands of it. But we’ve made this commitment to make sure the veterans are getting their records, and we’re still being impacted by the fire today, which is amazing.

[User] Certainly. Yes.

[Assistant] Great. Well, are there any other stories or anecdotes you want to share? It doesn't have to be fire related; it can be about your time at the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh. Now there were legal aspects, but we weren't.

[Assistant] Oh, so it wasn't mostly a legal issue. So what did you actually do?

[User] Okay, um. Well, I'll tell you about the training.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah.

[User] The training was the University of Wisconsin, and we were in Milwaukee. It was a branch of the university in Milwaukee. We were basically housed at a YMCA. And this wonderful program with a very strong language component was conducted there. And there were several trips to Madison where the main campus of the University of Wisconsin is and an agriculture school. So we had some introduction, but basically, uh.

[Assistant] You weren't an aggie as a result.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, um. Well, I'll tell you about the training.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah.

[User] The training was the University of Wisconsin, and we were in Milwaukee. It was a branch of the university in Milwaukee. We were basically housed at a YMCA. And this wonderful program with a very strong language component was conducted there. And there were several trips to Madison where the main campus of the University of Wisconsin is and an agriculture school. So we had some introduction, but basically, uh.

[Assistant] You weren't an aggie as a result.

[User]
We, uh, we brought whatever we brought as liberal arts students and I had a legal background and I tried to think of legal issues when I was there and, and. And how to bring that aspect of thinking to what I would do. But even there, what I found myself inclined to do and was engaged from time to time in responding to the legal concerns of settlers, um, boundary disputes with neighbors. There's a certain amount of precipitousness to this entire affair. People were brought in, they indicated 500 acres might be divided and, uh, and you'd have, you know, multiple plots there. And the government had clearly the mark of the boundaries of these individual plots and made some sketch of them.

And people found themselves in need, sometimes in conflict, you know, resolving these matters. And my, and my own inclination, you know, and I'm sure many, many of my colleagues had the same, is not to try to deal with this in a Western way, but to find ways of engaging community elders and in traditional methods of resolving disputes so that. That the people whose disputes were being resolved had some feeling that it connected to their traditions and therefore were, you know, acceptable. And the traditions would often try to find some way in which there's not a clear winner and loser, but a resolution to disputes.

[Assistant] So the disputes were mostly among Kenyans as opposed to settlers, I mean, the African Kenyans as opposed to the settlers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training was the University of Wisconsin, and we were in Milwaukee. It was a branch of the university in Milwaukee. We were basically housed at a YMCA. And this wonderful program with a very strong language component was conducted there. And there were several trips to Madison where the main campus of the University of Wisconsin is and an agriculture school. So we had some introduction, but basically, uh.

[Assistant] You weren't an aggie as a result.

[User]
We, uh, we brought whatever we brought as liberal arts students and I had a legal background and I tried to think of legal issues when I was there and, and. And how to bring that aspect of thinking to what I would do. But even there, what I found myself inclined to do and was engaged from time to time in responding to the legal concerns of settlers, um, boundary disputes with neighbors. There's a certain amount of precipitousness to this entire affair. People were brought in, they indicated 500 acres might be divided and, uh, and you'd have, you know, multiple plots there. And the government had clearly the mark of the boundaries of these individual plots and made some sketch of them.

And people found themselves in need, sometimes in conflict, you know, resolving these matters. And my, and my own inclination, you know, and I'm sure many, many of my colleagues had the same, is not to try to deal with this in a Western way, but to find ways of engaging community elders and in traditional methods of resolving disputes so that. That the people whose disputes were being resolved had some feeling that it connected to their traditions and therefore were, you know, acceptable. And the traditions would often try to find some way in which there's not a clear winner and loser, but a resolution to disputes.

[Assistant] So the disputes were mostly among Kenyans as opposed to settlers, I mean, the African Kenyans as opposed to the settlers?

[User] Well, that's right. I think, you know, the settlers had moved.

[Assistant] They had moved on by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's right. I think, you know, the settlers had moved.

[Assistant] They had moved on by then.

[User]
They, they had moved on. I mean, there were certainly individuals, this is 1965 and 1966, um, who had very recently been in the forest as fighters. And there were individuals who themselves were working out the transition from rebellion to working in a world in which the farms were theirs. But they were also marketing to national cooperatives that may have been controlled, still controlled, by expatriates. You know, many of them may have become citizens, but they came from the European society and the European economy.

And then people had to figure out a relationship and both volunteers had to figure out a relationship and people had to figure out a relationship to them. You know, in the background of there had been a serious conflict. And it was important to understand that background at all times.

[Assistant] Had there been a lot of violence at the beginning when the settlers were being moved out? The way you talk about it, it sounds like it was such a peaceful transition. My guess is.

[User] Well, the rebellion itself was extraordinarily violent.

[Assistant] Violent, but after, after independence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They, they had moved on. I mean, there were certainly individuals, this is 1965 and 1966, um, who had very recently been in the forest as fighters. And there were individuals who themselves were working out the transition from rebellion to working in a world in which the farms were theirs. But they were also marketing to national cooperatives that may have been controlled, still controlled, by expatriates. You know, many of them may have become citizens, but they came from the European society and the European economy.

And then people had to figure out a relationship and both volunteers had to figure out a relationship and people had to figure out a relationship to them. You know, in the background of there had been a serious conflict. And it was important to understand that background at all times.

[Assistant] Had there been a lot of violence at the beginning when the settlers were being moved out? The way you talk about it, it sounds like it was such a peaceful transition. My guess is.

[User] Well, the rebellion itself was extraordinarily violent.

[Assistant] Violent, but after, after independence?

[User] I don't think so. Although, um. So I think the, you know, accurate historical answer might involve a bit of research about whether, you know.

[Assistant] But you didn't feel it? You didn't encounter it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's what you call a good question. I don't, uh. I don't have a present recollection of thinking of age as an issue, partly because I was older than the other volunteers. I had spent three years in law school. But, um.

[Assistant] So clearly it wasn't.

[User] You know, I was, I was aware that I didn't have agricultural experience, I didn't have veterinary experience, um, and I certainly didn't, didn't want to convey knowledge that I had knowledge that I didn't.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the challenges were to work with people to organize the provision of assistance. And even when I was serving as a settlement officer, I did see that the development of the role of the cooperative societies was the preeminent aspect of this. So that, that was to me the organization that could be picked up and continued on. And it had its challenges. Definitely had its challenges.

[Assistant] How did you communicate with people, in English or was your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I was, I was aware that I didn't have agricultural experience, I didn't have veterinary experience, um, and I certainly didn't, didn't want to convey knowledge that I had knowledge that I didn't.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the challenges were to work with people to organize the provision of assistance. And even when I was serving as a settlement officer, I did see that the development of the role of the cooperative societies was the preeminent aspect of this. So that, that was to me the organization that could be picked up and continued on. And it had its challenges. Definitely had its challenges.

[Assistant] How did you communicate with people, in English or was your?

[User] Basically Swahili.

[Assistant] Your Swahili was good enough to be able to communicate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the challenges were to work with people to organize the provision of assistance. And even when I was serving as a settlement officer, I did see that the development of the role of the cooperative societies was the preeminent aspect of this. So that, that was to me the organization that could be picked up and continued on. And it had its challenges. Definitely had its challenges.

[Assistant] How did you communicate with people, in English or was your?

[User] Basically Swahili.

[Assistant] Your Swahili was good enough to be able to communicate?

[User] Yeah, it's sadly in the, in the graveyard of other languages in my head. But it, um, our training was very good. Fortunately Swahili, um, the language in which the sounds are very familiar sounds to an English speaking person. Kikuyu, on the other hand, the tone of language, and I didn't learn much Kikuyu, and it was far more challenging. But Swahili was a language that I was quite comfortable working in. In terms of dealing with other government administrators, and Settlement was an organization which was settlement officers and they were grouped together and there were regional officers and so forth. A good deal that could be in English, and English was a significant language of government at the time. But on the schemes it was Swahili.

[Assistant] Great. So you've talked a lot about your, the job, and little bit about the preparation. Can you talk a little bit about just the personal relationships with, whether it was with Kenyans or other Peace Corps volunteers? Do you still have friends from that time? Have you kept in touch? Or how did, you know, how did you live on a daily basis or with others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
A book, you know, to spend a little time talking in English. And they'd ask, and I was happy to give them away. But then there were others that I, I would work, work through. You know, daily life, um, was not one with either other Peace Corps volunteers or with Europeans.

I did some writing when I got back, and it exists in little chapters of things. And I think right now they're boxed just as a part of a question, you know, which is, uh, maybe you have a box like that at home? And, you know, I had ended up with a box of things and it included things that I had written. And, you know, my father was a great saver. So he saved letters home, uh, and I, I'd like to think I have a fairly good memory, you know. But the reality is that I got to look at the letters just a couple of years ago and sit down and transcribe them. Before them, a lot of detail would be gone.

[Assistant] You did a lot of other things in between.

[User] Well, I did a lot of things. And I guess a bunch of time has, um, has passed.

[Assistant] If you think?

[User] It might be helpful for this.

[Assistant] Sure. Read something. That would be wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. You have projects completed and projects half.

[Assistant] So did it ever get completed?

[User] Um, I looked for that. I like to think that.

[Assistant] That it did.

[User] And maybe I'll imagine.

[Assistant] Well, this is probably inappropriate for an interview, but I'll put in a plug for Peace Corps Writers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I looked for that. I like to think that.

[Assistant] That it did.

[User] And maybe I'll imagine.

[Assistant] Well, this is probably inappropriate for an interview, but I'll put in a plug for Peace Corps Writers.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] There is a group of any Peace, former Peace Corps volunteer can publish through Peace Corps Writers. And if you've been writing things, you might think about that in your spare time, whether it's short stories or just a memoir or reminiscences. There's a lot of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And maybe I'll imagine.

[Assistant] Well, this is probably inappropriate for an interview, but I'll put in a plug for Peace Corps Writers.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] There is a group of any Peace, former Peace Corps volunteer can publish through Peace Corps Writers. And if you've been writing things, you might think about that in your spare time, whether it's short stories or just a memoir or reminiscences. There's a lot of that.

[User] You have a distinguished Peace Corps writer in the family.

[Assistant] I do. So we can talk about that offline. You talked about your parents, writing your parents. Did you have other contact with them or what was their reaction to what was going on overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] There is a group of any Peace, former Peace Corps volunteer can publish through Peace Corps Writers. And if you've been writing things, you might think about that in your spare time, whether it's short stories or just a memoir or reminiscences. There's a lot of that.

[User] You have a distinguished Peace Corps writer in the family.

[Assistant] I do. So we can talk about that offline. You talked about your parents, writing your parents. Did you have other contact with them or what was their reaction to what was going on overseas?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Or even your going in to start with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have a distinguished Peace Corps writer in the family.

[Assistant] I do. So we can talk about that offline. You talked about your parents, writing your parents. Did you have other contact with them or what was their reaction to what was going on overseas?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Or even your going in to start with?

[User]
They, uh, they were very supportive. This is the time in the, in the Peace Corps in which very few parents traveled to where volunteers were. I was just with a filmmaker that's gathering here in Washington, her name is Alana DeJoseph, who's setting out to do a documentary about Peace Corps. And one of the things that Alana described is that as Peace Corps aged in time, more people had family travel there. So there were more videos of volunteers. And I think maybe there were a couple of family visits that basically just communicated by, by letter. Um.

I had in the course of that correspondence only one unhappy exchange of my parents. I tried to be a pretty good letter writer, uh, better at the beginning than, than much later. That sometime in the course of the first year, through some combination of having traveled and whatever, having not turned to it. I think I'd let three weeks go by. And toward the end of that, Peace Corps doctor shows up and says your mother is concerned. You haven't written. So I got on my motorcycle and drove down to this little town which had the military base, that had got a the military base. Maybe it was the post office that had a phone. And sought to explain to my mother that relax, I'm in good shape.

[Assistant] You called her up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Or even your going in to start with?

[User]
They, uh, they were very supportive. This is the time in the, in the Peace Corps in which very few parents traveled to where volunteers were. I was just with a filmmaker that's gathering here in Washington, her name is Alana DeJoseph, who's setting out to do a documentary about Peace Corps. And one of the things that Alana described is that as Peace Corps aged in time, more people had family travel there. So there were more videos of volunteers. And I think maybe there were a couple of family visits that basically just communicated by, by letter. Um.

I had in the course of that correspondence only one unhappy exchange of my parents. I tried to be a pretty good letter writer, uh, better at the beginning than, than much later. That sometime in the course of the first year, through some combination of having traveled and whatever, having not turned to it. I think I'd let three weeks go by. And toward the end of that, Peace Corps doctor shows up and says your mother is concerned. You haven't written. So I got on my motorcycle and drove down to this little town which had the military base, that had got a the military base. Maybe it was the post office that had a phone. And sought to explain to my mother that relax, I'm in good shape.

[Assistant] You called her up?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did she contact Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They, uh, they were very supportive. This is the time in the, in the Peace Corps in which very few parents traveled to where volunteers were. I was just with a filmmaker that's gathering here in Washington, her name is Alana DeJoseph, who's setting out to do a documentary about Peace Corps. And one of the things that Alana described is that as Peace Corps aged in time, more people had family travel there. So there were more videos of volunteers. And I think maybe there were a couple of family visits that basically just communicated by, by letter. Um.

I had in the course of that correspondence only one unhappy exchange of my parents. I tried to be a pretty good letter writer, uh, better at the beginning than, than much later. That sometime in the course of the first year, through some combination of having traveled and whatever, having not turned to it. I think I'd let three weeks go by. And toward the end of that, Peace Corps doctor shows up and says your mother is concerned. You haven't written. So I got on my motorcycle and drove down to this little town which had the military base, that had got a the military base. Maybe it was the post office that had a phone. And sought to explain to my mother that relax, I'm in good shape.

[Assistant] You called her up?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did she contact Peace Corps?

[User] She, my mother was uninhibited. I'm sure she.

[Assistant] She found a way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did she contact Peace Corps?

[User] She, my mother was uninhibited. I'm sure she.

[Assistant] She found a way.

[User] She found a way.

[Assistant] So before we started the interview, you talked about travel before, after, during. Talk a little bit about travel in Kenya or neighboring countries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She, my mother was uninhibited. I'm sure she.

[Assistant] She found a way.

[User] She found a way.

[Assistant] So before we started the interview, you talked about travel before, after, during. Talk a little bit about travel in Kenya or neighboring countries.

[User]
Sure. Uh, we. Sort of close, oh, maybe it was eight or nine months into our time in-country, we did gather volunteers, some number of volunteers together, climbed Mount Kenya, and then spend some time on the coast. The climb up Mount Kenya was from the Kenyan side. Most people, at least at that time, would climb from the Tanzanian side. The Kenya side was a bit more rustic going, going up.

And one of the things that I recounted about that trip, one of the absolutely strongest memories is, first we got to to a hut at 15,000 feet. We'd stayed in a cave going up for two nights and in caves because it was more rustic on the, on the Kenya side. Then you get to a point where there was a corrugated metal shed, and it's probably a little plusher now than it was then, where people would stay waiting for midnight or 1:00 in the morning when the scree would be frozen. Otherwise.

[Assistant] What is the scree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. I did that. Um. Had a wonderful trip with a, two Peace Corps volunteers and a friend who was teaching in, not a Peace Corps program but another program, into northern Uganda in which we spent, among other things, nights at missions along the way. And I was actually, I was fascinated by the mission experience. The missionaries who lived and translated the Bible into some dialect that it had not yet been translated into.

And I told, just at a Peace Corps gathering, I told the story about being out there with these couple of friends, and our Land Rover broke down and we didn't know what to do. And we were way out. Then over the horizon comes this figure and it approaches and you get to make it out. A tall, lanky guy and he's got a blanket and is carrying a spear. And is closer and closer and finally comes. And maybe we had a few words in Swahili, and then he broke out into English. It turned out that he had served in the British Army as a mechanic. Crawls under.

[Assistant] This was a Kikuyu man?

[User] Well, it wasn't Kikuyu in this area.

[Assistant] But he was a Kenyan, a native?

[User] He was living in.

[Assistant] Oh, Uganda, I'm sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But he was living in Uganda and we'll call it a Maasai related tribe, it probably wasn't Maasai, but in that family of people. And with whatever he had, I don't know, the tip of his spear or some tool that we had, fixed our Land Rover. And of course, we thank him profusely. And then he heads off and he's gone over the horizon and we were saved. And I told that story.

[Assistant] Nice story.

[User] That type of sharing of cross-cultural experiences. You just don't know who it is that you're going to meet.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] What experiences that individual might have, might have had. And it was very true.

[Assistant] That's a lovely story. Yeah. And then you went to Ethiopia on vacation once, is that it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. You know, again, a, uh, this was with a Peace Corps buddy. We went up. We flew to Addis and then continued, continued north, ended up very close to the front lines with Eritrea at the time. Went to a place called Keren.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] My wife is Karen, K-A-R-E-N.

[Assistant] K-E-R-E-N.

[User] That's right, K-E. And pop, pop artillery in the distance. So that was 1966 and it was the front line.

[Assistant] Way before Eritrean independence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My wife is Karen, K-A-R-E-N.

[Assistant] K-E-R-E-N.

[User] That's right, K-E. And pop, pop artillery in the distance. So that was 1966 and it was the front line.

[Assistant] Way before Eritrean independence.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Thirty years of war there as well. So thinking back about, well, you talked, I guess, about coming back. Um. You closed out your experience in Kenya and then how was the transition back, back home? Did you travel in Europe on the way back or come straight back? What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, K-E. And pop, pop artillery in the distance. So that was 1966 and it was the front line.

[Assistant] Way before Eritrean independence.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Thirty years of war there as well. So thinking back about, well, you talked, I guess, about coming back. Um. You closed out your experience in Kenya and then how was the transition back, back home? Did you travel in Europe on the way back or come straight back? What did you do?

[User] But I think the second year.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Another interview. Um. Traveled to South Africa. First went down to Dar es Salaam by train and then got on a plane to then, uh, then it was Salisbury. And I spent some time in Rhodesia and into Johannesburg, where I hooked up with a Peace Corps friend who flew down from Kenya. And that's another absolutely vivid recollection, Johannesburg in 1966. Um. Kind of downtown Johannesburg. And there, you know, there I see the four signs, white women, white men, African women, African men for restrooms and, you know, four different, four different sides. Um.

We spent some, some time. I had hoped, actually, to get on a freighter going up from Cape Town up the west coast, um, but didn't make those connections. So went back to Johannesburg and flew to, uh, Lagos. We arrived late at night. And I look out on the tarmac there as the plane is landing. There are soldiers all over the place. And it was the start of the civil war with Biafra. And I'm getting off the plane. Hadn't made no plans at all. You just, just arrive. And look out at the airport. And there was someone I knew, who was then the Peace Corps doctor in, um, in Nigeria. And we had worked together at a summer camp in New York State.

[Assistant] That's amazing.

[User] And so he took me off to a safe house as this civil war began. My travels in Nigeria were then limited. Since then having gone over, our deputy administrator in Kenya had been an original Peace Corps volunteer in Ghana and was now the country director. And then I think at some point I did pick up a, uh, a letter which indicated that my draft board wanted to see me on some date in November and that accelerated.

[Assistant] Trip home.

[User] Trip home, yeah. The draft board ultimately decided it wasn't interested in me and.

[Assistant] You were too old at that point. Or maybe not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so he took me off to a safe house as this civil war began. My travels in Nigeria were then limited. Since then having gone over, our deputy administrator in Kenya had been an original Peace Corps volunteer in Ghana and was now the country director. And then I think at some point I did pick up a, uh, a letter which indicated that my draft board wanted to see me on some date in November and that accelerated.

[Assistant] Trip home.

[User] Trip home, yeah. The draft board ultimately decided it wasn't interested in me and.

[Assistant] You were too old at that point. Or maybe not?

[User] Well, I.

[Assistant] 26 was the magic year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Trip home, yeah. The draft board ultimately decided it wasn't interested in me and.

[Assistant] You were too old at that point. Or maybe not?

[User] Well, I.

[Assistant] 26 was the magic year.

[User] Oh, I was, uh, I was just past 26. But gave, actually gave some further thought to going in as a JAG officer. And thinking about all that and, um, someone I shared with a couple of law students an apartment with in Chicago was then at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And so I went up, had lunch, met people, and within weeks I was a civil rights lawyer.

[Assistant] Wow. So just looking back at, at your experience, uh, you know, three goals of Peace Corps. To provide assistance as requested, to promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of the world by Americans. How do you think your Peace Corps experience or your life since then has, has met those, those three goals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I.

[Assistant] 26 was the magic year.

[User] Oh, I was, uh, I was just past 26. But gave, actually gave some further thought to going in as a JAG officer. And thinking about all that and, um, someone I shared with a couple of law students an apartment with in Chicago was then at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And so I went up, had lunch, met people, and within weeks I was a civil rights lawyer.

[Assistant] Wow. So just looking back at, at your experience, uh, you know, three goals of Peace Corps. To provide assistance as requested, to promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of the world by Americans. How do you think your Peace Corps experience or your life since then has, has met those, those three goals?

[User] What's it, one is providing?

[Assistant] The first one is helping the country. The second one is helping people in the other, in the country understand the U.S. And the third is bringing the message of Peace Corps in the world back to the U.S. Do you have any thoughts about your experience and, and how, you know, how your experience met those three goals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I was, uh, I was just past 26. But gave, actually gave some further thought to going in as a JAG officer. And thinking about all that and, um, someone I shared with a couple of law students an apartment with in Chicago was then at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And so I went up, had lunch, met people, and within weeks I was a civil rights lawyer.

[Assistant] Wow. So just looking back at, at your experience, uh, you know, three goals of Peace Corps. To provide assistance as requested, to promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of the world by Americans. How do you think your Peace Corps experience or your life since then has, has met those, those three goals?

[User] What's it, one is providing?

[Assistant] The first one is helping the country. The second one is helping people in the other, in the country understand the U.S. And the third is bringing the message of Peace Corps in the world back to the U.S. Do you have any thoughts about your experience and, and how, you know, how your experience met those three goals?

[User] Well, there's always the risk of wishfulness in thinking about that. I understand the questions. Uh.

[Assistant] It's okay to say no.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Being at negotiations to, you know, to deal with legal issues as a variable but to keep the focus on the community. And generally at the time and since I've thought of that in connection with my Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps trained you to, to do that.

[User] I think it helped develop that, yes.

[Assistant] It helped develop that. That's really a nice story. So I think we're going to close it out. One last question. Have you stayed, it sounds like you've stayed involved with a Kenya group of volunteers? Have you been active in that?

[User] Uh, not in a formal way. We've gotten together a couple of times and. And a couple of dear friends are, you know, from that, you know, from that experience. And we had a small group together a couple of weeks ago to talk with the filmmaker I mentioned, Alana DeJoseph, who's got a project that anyone listening to this tape should, should know is a great project, to do a documentary history of it. But anyway, it was an occasion to talk about our experiences.

[Assistant] Great. So thank you. This was a really interesting experience. I've known you for many years but didn't know all of this background, so I'm so glad we did this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it helped develop that, yes.

[Assistant] It helped develop that. That's really a nice story. So I think we're going to close it out. One last question. Have you stayed, it sounds like you've stayed involved with a Kenya group of volunteers? Have you been active in that?

[User] Uh, not in a formal way. We've gotten together a couple of times and. And a couple of dear friends are, you know, from that, you know, from that experience. And we had a small group together a couple of weeks ago to talk with the filmmaker I mentioned, Alana DeJoseph, who's got a project that anyone listening to this tape should, should know is a great project, to do a documentary history of it. But anyway, it was an occasion to talk about our experiences.

[Assistant] Great. So thank you. This was a really interesting experience. I've known you for many years but didn't know all of this background, so I'm so glad we did this.

[User] Oh, the things neighbors keep from each other.

[Assistant] Exactly. Exactly. So thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I wound up a corporal. I later, while I was in college, got in the Army Reserves and got a commission. And then retired as a Army captain. But—

[Assistant] What year were you married?

[User] …The first time, I was married in ’55 and we had two children. That’s the only two children that I have. That marriage ended in about ’73; and then in ’76 I married my present wife. She had three children. All of them at different points lived with us. And we have five wonderful children together; and—

[Assistant] And—

[User] —We are very, very happily married.\n\n She was a political wife, one that enjoyed going out and doing things. And being gone a lot in my early political career probably led to the separation between [my first wife and myself] or the drifting apart. But she was a wonderful lady. But we had different…paths. She was a homemaker. But that was an unfortunate thing that takes its toll among many, many people.

[Assistant] The—you mentioned that—you’re degreed in Agricultural Economics. Anything from that background that you could see as you reflect on the years that you spent focusing so heavily on funding in the space program? Anything translate over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] …The first time, I was married in ’55 and we had two children. That’s the only two children that I have. That marriage ended in about ’73; and then in ’76 I married my present wife. She had three children. All of them at different points lived with us. And we have five wonderful children together; and—

[Assistant] And—

[User] —We are very, very happily married.\n\n She was a political wife, one that enjoyed going out and doing things. And being gone a lot in my early political career probably led to the separation between [my first wife and myself] or the drifting apart. But she was a wonderful lady. But we had different…paths. She was a homemaker. But that was an unfortunate thing that takes its toll among many, many people.

[Assistant] The—you mentioned that—you’re degreed in Agricultural Economics. Anything from that background that you could see as you reflect on the years that you spent focusing so heavily on funding in the space program? Anything translate over?

[User] Well, a lot of it. Like in remote sensing that—and in communications. You look at farming today. It’s totally different than when I was growing up on a farm. One, it’s—you have air-conditioned tractors and so forth. But you use a lot of space technology in that and in many other facets. Farming has become very scientifically oriented, and taking advantage of a lot of things. So, there—yes, there was a lot of spill-over of things, and how plants grow and disease resistance. A lot of the things that…the space program has helped move along.

[Assistant] Now, the House committee. You mentioned how you got on those committees, that at the time there were vacancies and you just basically expressed an interest. When you got on the committee in terms of the timing of things in conjunction with NASA programs that were going on, what do you recall that—things that you did on the committee that related to Project Gemini? Let’s start with Gemini.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every one of them.

[Assistant] And—

[User] The only one I missed was Apollo 12—

[Assistant] Your—

[User] —and I was about 60 miles away when that happened, because I was in the middle of a campaign and I was having to campaign at that time. But I went to every one other than that.

[Assistant] And your thoughts, as someone who has had, you know, worked kind of behind the scenes and in front of the scenes to fund this program? Your thoughts when we left for the Moon and when you actually saw those fuzzy images that we all watched of Neil and Buzz walking on the Moon? What did you think? And was it all—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only one I missed was Apollo 12—

[Assistant] Your—

[User] —and I was about 60 miles away when that happened, because I was in the middle of a campaign and I was having to campaign at that time. But I went to every one other than that.

[Assistant] And your thoughts, as someone who has had, you know, worked kind of behind the scenes and in front of the scenes to fund this program? Your thoughts when we left for the Moon and when you actually saw those fuzzy images that we all watched of Neil and Buzz walking on the Moon? What did you think? And was it all—?

[User] I had tears in my eyes. Tears in my eyes that it had happened. Went to every launch. One of the things we were fortunate: we got to know the astronauts and talk to them and—before their launch and after their launch. And they were human beings, and they had a humorous side. They were—in addition to being wonderful human beings, they were very competitive. One of the things that Mr. Teague emphasized that…and tried to have was a back-door communications with the astronauts.\n\n Are you happy with safety procedures? Are you happy with the training? Do you think you’re getting adequate training? Do you think that they’re short-sighting you on safety? And most of them were, you know, they never had any complaints. There was only one. One time we were meeting with them and these were very quiet meetings, no NASA people were there. Just the—.

[Assistant] These weren’t like subcommittee hearings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —and I was about 60 miles away when that happened, because I was in the middle of a campaign and I was having to campaign at that time. But I went to every one other than that.

[Assistant] And your thoughts, as someone who has had, you know, worked kind of behind the scenes and in front of the scenes to fund this program? Your thoughts when we left for the Moon and when you actually saw those fuzzy images that we all watched of Neil and Buzz walking on the Moon? What did you think? And was it all—?

[User] I had tears in my eyes. Tears in my eyes that it had happened. Went to every launch. One of the things we were fortunate: we got to know the astronauts and talk to them and—before their launch and after their launch. And they were human beings, and they had a humorous side. They were—in addition to being wonderful human beings, they were very competitive. One of the things that Mr. Teague emphasized that…and tried to have was a back-door communications with the astronauts.\n\n Are you happy with safety procedures? Are you happy with the training? Do you think you’re getting adequate training? Do you think that they’re short-sighting you on safety? And most of them were, you know, they never had any complaints. There was only one. One time we were meeting with them and these were very quiet meetings, no NASA people were there. Just the—.

[Assistant] These weren’t like subcommittee hearings?

[User] Oh, no, no, no.

[Assistant] These were private—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] —of the arguments—.

[User] With [Rep.] Bella [Savitzky] Abzug.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I didn’t think they had very…[much space activity] going on in Wisconsin and Minnesota and in downtown Manhattan. I think some people have to be opposed to things, and I’ve debated Proxmire [several] times on this issue, and I didn’t think he had very, very strong arguments. I don’t think Walter Mondale had very strong arguments about this. But I think, by and large, we did, [and] the Cold War was still going on. We knew that, [or] had reason to believe that the Soviets were working on a similar type vehicle, which they were. And that, did we want to grant them this access that we didn’t have? And even the Air Force had some interest in this [in] the early days… Or until they had to put up some money, they [lost some of their] interest in it.\n\n The [Congressional] votes were still pretty good. Every year I would look at the vote to see how we were [doing] as a kind of a thermometer of how we were doing, and it kept getting better. And that was—I was very pleased at that.

[Assistant] When Nixon, who really was not a big Shuttle supporter (many would say that he was cost-conscious and, I’ve read, not real imaginative about space), he just pretty much saw the Shuttle as a political device. This is a way to keep NASA afloat. Give them the Shuttle. But don’t fund it very well. Don’t fund it, maybe, the way they want to have it funded. I mean, do you think that that kind of doomed it from the beginning? I mean, I’m just—I’m curious about at what point in the political process did you secretly know in your heart of hearts that what was being promised really could never happen with what Nixon agreed to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. NASA had talked to us and said, “You know, this is going to be the longest lead time item that we have. It’s going to take the most development.” They chose who they thought was the best company at that time. Or had the best proposal. And they chose Rocketdyne [Division of Rockwell International] . And Pratt did protest—Pratt did have concerns about it. But there are protest processes you can go through, and they did protest (if I’m not mistaken).

[Assistant] I think they did.

[User] And there’s a process that that [you go] through. And in the meantime, [NASA] did go to court or got permission to go ahead and proceed while the protest was being resolved. And the protest was resolved in the favor of Rocketdyne and upheld the decision that NASA had made. I don’t know how—I don’t think Nixon called NASA and said, “Give this to this company.” Those are all very tough decisions to make, and they put together teams of experts to evaluate these. And you have to basically trust what they say.\n\n And then there were some other concerns about it, if I’m not mistaken, on the solids and what—whether to go with this type of a configuration or another type of configuration. And I think it was probably Aerojet [General Corp.] that was the other, if I’m not mistaken; and Thiokol [Chemical Corp.] prevailed. We tried to stay out of those things and leave it to the professionals to make the judgment, unless there was some real obvious hanky-pank going on. But I never found that. I always felt like NASA was very upbeat and up front about how they did these things. Because they knew they had a hot potato on their hand, and they’d better be able to justify it in the end after great scrutiny.

[Assistant] But do you think politics factored in as long as it—you know, if they could justify it and there was a political consideration, I mean—

[User] Well, there was also—

[Assistant] —you—you’re enough of a politician to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there’s a process that that [you go] through. And in the meantime, [NASA] did go to court or got permission to go ahead and proceed while the protest was being resolved. And the protest was resolved in the favor of Rocketdyne and upheld the decision that NASA had made. I don’t know how—I don’t think Nixon called NASA and said, “Give this to this company.” Those are all very tough decisions to make, and they put together teams of experts to evaluate these. And you have to basically trust what they say.\n\n And then there were some other concerns about it, if I’m not mistaken, on the solids and what—whether to go with this type of a configuration or another type of configuration. And I think it was probably Aerojet [General Corp.] that was the other, if I’m not mistaken; and Thiokol [Chemical Corp.] prevailed. We tried to stay out of those things and leave it to the professionals to make the judgment, unless there was some real obvious hanky-pank going on. But I never found that. I always felt like NASA was very upbeat and up front about how they did these things. Because they knew they had a hot potato on their hand, and they’d better be able to justify it in the end after great scrutiny.

[Assistant] But do you think politics factored in as long as it—you know, if they could justify it and there was a political consideration, I mean—

[User] Well, there was also—

[Assistant] —you—you’re enough of a politician to—

[User] No.

[Assistant] —know that you can’t eliminate the politics though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was also—

[Assistant] —you—you’re enough of a politician to—

[User] No.

[Assistant] —know that you can’t eliminate the politics though.

[User] Well, they had these source evaluation teams that went in and looked at these. The other you could’ve been—and we sat through the briefings that the companies had on how the Shuttle would look and the different—they had Boeing [Company] and Lockheed [Aircraft Corp.] and—and Rockwell and General Dynamics [Corp.] and I forgot who all else giving briefings. I remember, we were in Los Angeles, sitting in a motel conference room. We wouldn’t even go to a government facility. We were there at an independent place and a very private meeting where they were going over why they felt like their configuration was better.\n\n Well, it was very confusing to a layman like me. They all looked pretty good! But it wound up with a kind of a combination of a couple of them. And of course, Rockwell had—or North American [Aviation, Inc.] then had done the command module for the Apollo Program. And McDonnell Douglas was involved. I felt rather comfortable and I think most members of Congress felt comfortable that they had justified their decision. It was—some designs were probably better than others, and we all knew that that was not going to be the final design.

[Assistant] Do you recall, I mean, you know, part of the debate that always comes up with Shuttle and any of the manned programs is with scientists, and that contingent of scientists who say these big programs—and there’s evidence of them killing smaller programs that can’t exist because the big program, you know, it keeps NASA afloat but it kills off some smaller things. And do you recall scientists—even from the days of Apollo there were scientists who didn’t like Apollo because they would rather you spend the money on, just launch some robots on some unmanned rockets. I mean, any recollections that you have of—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] —know that you can’t eliminate the politics though.

[User] Well, they had these source evaluation teams that went in and looked at these. The other you could’ve been—and we sat through the briefings that the companies had on how the Shuttle would look and the different—they had Boeing [Company] and Lockheed [Aircraft Corp.] and—and Rockwell and General Dynamics [Corp.] and I forgot who all else giving briefings. I remember, we were in Los Angeles, sitting in a motel conference room. We wouldn’t even go to a government facility. We were there at an independent place and a very private meeting where they were going over why they felt like their configuration was better.\n\n Well, it was very confusing to a layman like me. They all looked pretty good! But it wound up with a kind of a combination of a couple of them. And of course, Rockwell had—or North American [Aviation, Inc.] then had done the command module for the Apollo Program. And McDonnell Douglas was involved. I felt rather comfortable and I think most members of Congress felt comfortable that they had justified their decision. It was—some designs were probably better than others, and we all knew that that was not going to be the final design.

[Assistant] Do you recall, I mean, you know, part of the debate that always comes up with Shuttle and any of the manned programs is with scientists, and that contingent of scientists who say these big programs—and there’s evidence of them killing smaller programs that can’t exist because the big program, you know, it keeps NASA afloat but it kills off some smaller things. And do you recall scientists—even from the days of Apollo there were scientists who didn’t like Apollo because they would rather you spend the money on, just launch some robots on some unmanned rockets. I mean, any recollections that you have of—

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] —and tell me some of those stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I retired. I still have the hat! But I haven’t worn it. Someone suggested I take it back to wear it for the John Glenn flight last year, but I didn’t.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] It was a little warm then, too.

[Assistant] It was a little warm. When the Shuttle first, you know, flew that first time and then, as you said, how soon after that—I mean, you know, after four flights, it’s declared operational. But operational then was not what you all had envisioned it being back in the ’70s when the political fighting and the budget. I mean, how soon did you realize, “Boy, this is not going to get down to, you know, $50 a pound. This is not going to get down to a flight a week.” I mean, when did that realization come?

[User] Well, I think along about that time it occurred to me that this is—we’re still dealing with a very hostile environment. It was called space. And it will never be routine. I think that was wishful thinking on a lot of parts. I was not one of those who early advocated that that was even ever going to happen. But, I think I realized, and a lot of other people, that this is, still have a very precarious situation here. Turning it around, getting it [ready] and the amount of time it’s taking to turn the Shuttle around. The complexities of the systems. Even then, they were old. The computers and so forth were not the latest computers. The redundancy of test and so forth. All of that led me to believe that this is still a very complex thing.

[Assistant] You just thought, “Okay, it may cost more than we expected but it’s still worth fighting for?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, as I recall, they were talking about something that would be like a tugboat. Take it from the mother ship and take it to a certain place, and then drop it off and come back. And you could retrieve it. Or you could jettison it. But I think the IUS finally was the winner, which was an Air Force program and one of their contributions. And that became a very expensive program… And as I recall, it was to be a small vehicle that would take something out to geosynchronous orbit, leave it, and come back; and you could—the tug would be reusable. You could bring it back and—\n\n Then there’s some concern about: what kind of fuel would it have in there? And did you want to land with that type of fuel onboard a Shuttle? There were a lot of safety concerns about that. And probably, as I recall (and I don’t remember the exact figures), it was going to be very expensive to do that.

[Assistant] Do you recall what killed it or—?

[User] We were looking at a throwaway-type smaller vehicle.

[Assistant] I mean, do you recall, like, there being a conscious decision to kill the space tug? Or did it just kind of—?

[User] No, I don’t think it was ever authorized. I think it was one of those proposals, and you get a lot of proposals. Some better than others. There was also another vehicle, smaller than the IUS, that could take objects out to geosynchronous or something of that type. And I don’t remember who built it now. I remember it was…not a—very big, and you could stack things on to take care of whatever the payload you were trying to put out there. But I think it was probably too expensive to do that.

[Assistant] The Shuttle’s flying. And I’m just curious. Talk about politics in space: [Senator Edwin Jacob] Jake Garn and [Rep. Clarence William] Bill Nelson. Do you recall the politics behind them lobbying to fly? And let’s start with Jake Garn, because he was first. I mean, do you remember what your first reaction was when you heard he wanted to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, this is probably in…the late ’70s, early ’80s. And I said, “What?!” “Yeah, we’ve got a little cost overrun on the Shuttle.” And so, I said, “What happened since you came in here in March and told me everything was okay? And now, 3 months later, you’ve got this tremendous overrun.” “Well, we just found out about it.” “Yeah, um-hmm. I believe in Santa Claus, too.” So, we…[have] got to go to the floor to get this money and my reputation’s on the line, and I have to explain it to all the other 434 members of the House why I told them everything was okay earlier. So, we put a—we started an investigation of our own. “What happened?”\n\n And we found out that—and it was primarily [at] Rockwell that was having the problem, that when something happened on the [plant] floor it was about 6 [to 9] months before it ever wound its way back to NASA [Headquarters]. It was actually 9 months before it ever wound its way back to NASA. So, this problem had been festering down there and…[the process] not letting it get back to NASA.\n\n So, we held some hearings on that. “What is going on?” And then we had them institute a procedure that if something happened on the floor, there was a red flag went up and somebody, somewhere up the line was supposed to say, “What’s going on?”

[Assistant] This is when the Shuttle’s being built?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Cause I have written down that there—in 1979, they asked for supplemental funding.

[User] Well that was probably the year.

[Assistant] And—that was probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Cause I have written down that there—in 1979, they asked for supplemental funding.

[User] Well that was probably the year.

[Assistant] And—that was probably.

[User] Yeah, and—

[Assistant] You also did it in 1990—1980.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well that was probably the year.

[Assistant] And—that was probably.

[User] Yeah, and—

[Assistant] You also did it in 1990—1980.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I think they did it real close together there, asked for more and then more.